69 H/O vs 70 442

[344870M]

Originally Posted by firefrost gold

the 69 h/o weight 3870 the 70 w-30 weight 3887 with a w=27 and w-25

That's OK.. The H/O driver weighs 17 pounds more than me

[firefrost gold]

That made me laugh .

[WhatIf]

Yes, but subtract the weight of sound deadener, radio, p/s and p/db, and I bet that's another 150 lbs right there off the 1970 W-30. I think I heard that W-30's were light on sound deadener anyway but there was a way to order it with no sound deadener. I don't think any 69 H/O's were built without the above items, were they?

Another thing to consider is that a 4-speed is lighter than a T400, and you couldn't get a 4-speed in an H/O. I think the W27 aluminum rear end had to be 50 lbs lighter than the standard 10 or 12 bolt, and the 14" dog dishes had to be another 40 lbs. lighter than those big 15x7 H/O wheels, and the aluminum W30 intake had to be 25 lbs less than the steel 69 H/O unit.

I say you could get a 70 W-30 down to around 3550 lbs ordered like above and the 69 H/O would still be around 3800-3900 lbs.

I'm no Olds expert, but I do play one on TV.

[firefrost gold]

The weights I posted were from road tests . the original post said optioned out the same or close too it. who has run faster in pure stock or fast drag. If I remember right isnt there a 70 w-31 that has run those classes and been as fast or faster??

[svnt442]

Actually you couldn't get a 68 H/O with a 4 speed, but in 69 you could.

[Jamesbo]

Originally Posted by svnt442

Actually you couldn't get a 68 H/O with a 4 speed, but in 69 you could.

I didn't know that. Are you sure?

[WhatIf]

Well the original post said "optioned out with all performance options", so I don't think he meant power accessory options, like a/c, and things like that. I think the 70 has the edge due to the things I listed above. You could also order a 70 W-30 as a post coupe which I believe was lighter than the hardtop.

I also did not know they made 69H/O's with 4speeds, I thought they were all dual gates.

[firefrost gold]

From the white lightning news letter from the h/o club of america there were a couple four speeds where made in 68 but to genral public both 68 and69 had the bang the screech th 400 better in the hands of the public (less tore up parts) The w-25 hood had a steal frame and thick thick fiberglass to hold up weight has to be close to a stock hood in weight . 4 speed might be lighter but if your not ronny sox getting that 500lbs of tq of the line might be out of alot of drivers relm. Dont all olds have plastic inner fenders ,just that the w-30 are red so no weight savings there ?? My brothers 71 442 code 43 green white int non ram air th 400 had black plastic inner fenders . He got it new drove the piss out of it sold it got it back in the late 80" put new gm quarters and paint on it and sold it again. I wish I would have known that was a one year paint code and bought it he got 3000 for it. I was in 11 grade at the time I had a 65 gto we never ran them side by side .

[svnt442]

The very first 68 was a 4 speed and no other 68s came that way. They were all TH 400s.

This is why I thought the 4sp was an option in 69
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XONJh1DlpWU&NR=1

[firefrost gold]

iv seen that one two i love the sound and the way the hood jumps every time he bang a new gear.

[freebird72]

At least people are talking now.

I see people are trying to figure out what I meant by performance options. Well like I said earlier (in my definition of a street machine) I want a car that goes fast in a straight line and corners well too. So that does mean power steering and power brakes. I have never really driven a car with out these options so I do not know how well they would handle(my 72 CS has both). Lets say they both have a four speed (even if this is rare on a H/O). Yes on the radio and no on the a/c.

So I guess my overall question is, which one has both (power and handling)?

And remember, I just want your opinion on which you think is better and why. Thank you for your time.

[344870M]

Originally Posted by freebird72

At least people are talking now.

I see people are trying to figure out what I meant by performance options. Well like I said earlier (in my definition of a street machine) I want a car that goes fast in a straight line and corners well too. So that does mean power steering and power brakes. I have never really driven a car with out these options so I do not know how well they would handle(my 72 CS has both). Lets say they both have a four speed (even if this is rare on a H/O). Yes on the radio and no on the a/c.

So I guess my overall question is, which one has both (power and handling)?

And remember, I just want your opinion on which you think is better and why. Thank you for your time.

Well my car has neither p/s or p/b and she is a bear drive. Never tried taking her through a slalom and I don't even want tho think about the cone carnage that would ensue. But as far as straight line performance, I am quite impressed.

[wmachine]

Originally Posted by 83hurstguy

H/O's are HEAVY cars. Even when they weren't optioned out, H/O's were still a non-post car, buckets, console, etc.... 442's have an advantage that you can have a '70 sport coupe (post), with bench seat and a 4 speed (or column shift), minimal options, plain steel wheels, etc... should be able to walk an H/O just due to weight. With a W-30, you also get an aluminum intake manifold.

Originally Posted by WhatIf

The 15" H/O wheels would also be heavier than the 1970 14" wheels. Not much, maybe 5 pounds each wheel.

Originally Posted by firefrost gold

the 69 h/o weight 3870 the 70 w-30 weight 3887 with a w=27 and w-25

Originally Posted by WhatIf

Yes, but subtract the weight of sound deadener, radio, p/s and p/db, and I bet that's another 150 lbs right there off the 1970 W-30. I think I heard that W-30's were light on sound deadener anyway but there was a way to order it with no sound deadener
Another thing to consider is that a 4-speed is lighter than a T400, and you couldn't get a 4-speed in an H/O. I think the W27 aluminum rear end had to be 50 lbs lighter than the standard 10 or 12 bolt, and the 14" dog dishes had to be another 40 lbs. lighter than those big 15x7 H/O wheels, and the aluminum W30 intake had to be 25 lbs less than the steel 69 H/O unit.
I say you could get a 70 W-30 down to around 3550 lbs ordered like above and the 69 H/O would still be around 3800-3900 lbs.

Originally Posted by firefrost gold

The weights I posted were from road tests . the original post said optioned out the same or close too it. who has run faster in pure stock or fast drag. If I remember right isnt there a 70 w-31 that has run those classes and been as fast or faster??

Originally Posted by WhatIf

Well the original post said "optioned out with all performance options", so I don't think he meant power accessory options, like a/c, and things like that. I think the 70 has the edge due to the things I listed above. You could also order a 70 W-30 as a post coupe which I believe was lighter than the hardtop.

I also did not know they made 69H/O's with 4speeds, I thought they were all dual gates.

Originally Posted by firefrost gold

From the white lightning news letter from the h/o club of america there were a couple four speeds where made in 68 but to genral public both 68 and69 had the bang the screech th 400 better in the hands of the public (less tore up parts) The w-25 hood had a steal frame and thick thick fiberglass to hold up weight has to be close to a stock hood in weight . 4 speed might be lighter.....

Weight is undeniably a factor.
Most of these are pretty good arguments, but I can clear up a few things right off the bat:
From numerous Oldsmobile sources, the W30 option adds 40# in 1970. That puts the 1970 W30 hardtop at 3857# curb weight (let's clarify what "type" of weight we're referring to). If we're comparing apples to apples, you'd have to compare a '70 W30 Holiday Coupe with ps, pb, and an auto, but I don't see that stipulation.
So go with a Sports Coupe (-46#), a W27 rear (-22#) and bench seats (-15# I'm guessing?), no console (20# guessing again), and we're at 3754#
Now I'm sure there are some H/O guys out there that can give us the actual weight of a '69 H/O (I can't find it).
I can tell you that a '69 442 is 200# lighter than a '70 442.
It certainly wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility to get some actual weights. Volunteers?

[bccan]

Been reading along this thread & keep coming up w/ same conclusion in my head. This is a "PICK EM". When you get right down to it the cars are so similar I don't see where either gets a leg up on either of them. I think if you rounded up 2-3 of each, UNALTERED, even w/ the '70 in various forms ie AT/MT, power, no power, different gears, etc you would have way more variance in drivers than the actual cars.

I don't see more than a couple tenths spread, which would easily be erased or compounded w/ different drivers, maybe at most a tenth of a G on a skid pad from best to worst(I have no thought on order). As long as all are disc brake cars, they will all stop within a few feet of each other.

I still don't know what criteria makes one the best but I have to assume quarter mile performance first & foremost since this was always the benchmark for musclecars, followed by handling, ride, overall balance.

These cars are forever respected in the musclecar world and deserve it - looks, performance, comfort by the day's standards, reliability. They are born of the same DNA from the frame up, much of the same or so closely similar equipment that I don't see either one as better than the other.

If quarter mile is the ticket, maybe we should be adding '66 W-30 and Ram Rod/W-31 to the argument.

Personally, I'd love to own a quality example of any one of them!

[70 cutlass s]

Instead of going over numbers trying to find which was faster. We need to guys with these cars go out and race. The cars can do the talking.

[firefrost gold]

Iv asked this before but no feed back who has run faster in the pure stock or fast type races ???? How fast were the early 66 and 67 w-30 Now we can have some fun. Was the 68 h/o non air faster than the 69 and of course the 70 ??? Does anyone have flow # on the d c and F heads ? wouldnt that be a nice collection of cars listed above

[1969w3155]

I have seen a '70 W30 run a 12:67, a '69 H/O w/3:91's run a 13:39, a '70 W31 turn a 12:85, and a '68 Ram Rod 13:60's at Purestock. As brought up before, drivers, weights, gearing, ability to tune, all play a part.

[firefrost gold]

As does your pocket book . I want to go out to michigan to watch this next year if things work out. Do you run your car?

[1969w3155]

It's awaiting restoration...long term.

[1969Hurst]

No factory 4 speed 1969 H/O's were made

Originally Posted by svnt442

Actually you couldn't get a 68 H/O with a 4 speed, but in 69 you could.

[1969Hurst]

My 2ct opinion is the only way to really tell is to build yourself a time machine and go back to early 1970 and get the two to race... or to compare figures/magazines from the era to get times. Pure Stock and especially F.A.S.T. races can have altered/improved cars, no telling what someone has does to engine internals, I just don't think they can be relied on.

Originally Posted by firefrost gold

Iv asked this before but no feed back who has run faster in the pure stock or fast type races ???? How fast were the early 66 and 67 w-30 Now we can have some fun. Was the 68 h/o non air faster than the 69 and of course the 70 ??? Does anyone have flow # on the d c and F heads ? wouldnt that be a nice collection of cars listed above

[svnt442]

Originally Posted by 1969Hurst

No factory 4 speed 1969 H/O's were made

Then the video was either a clone car or a converted H/O. I'm no expert on them by any means so I could be easily fooled.