Taller Spindles...

[442_Mustang]

I have a 72 Cutlass S with a 455/4speed with No power steering or power brakes(4Wheel Instafade drums). I will be getting it back together this spring/summer. Body shop Purgatory(My Own)
My question is that I have heard about converting late 70s Caprice/Impala discs with the taller spindles to give a better camber curve and to have bigger disc brakes. I know I will have to get the tubular upper control arms or I won't be able to align it. Am I crazy for wanting to keep my manual brakes? My motor more than likely won't pull sufficient vacuum to run a booster. I've seen several similar swaps with the upgraded brakes but they always have added power brakes.I've had a few cars with manual discs and stopped better than the drums.
Also, I'm going from a stock 350/4bbl to the aluminum headed455 with aluminum intake, etc... I always thought the car sat too high before and I don't want it higher. I'd almost like a dropped spindle or should I cut a coil out? Any suggestions or am I missing something here?

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by 442_Mustang

I have a 72 Cutlass S with a 455/4speed with No power steering or power brakes(4Wheel Instafade drums). I will be getting it back together this spring/summer. Body shop Purgatory(My Own)
My question is that I have heard about converting late 70s Caprice/Impala discs with the taller spindles to give a better camber curve and to have bigger disc brakes. I know I will have to get the tubular upper control arms or I won't be able to align it. Am I crazy for wanting to keep my manual brakes? My motor more than likely won't pull sufficient vacuum to run a booster. I've seen several similar swaps with the upgraded brakes but they always have added power brakes.I've had a few cars with manual discs and stopped better than the drums.
Also, I'm going from a stock 350/4bbl to the aluminum headed455 with aluminum intake, etc... I always thought the car sat too high before and I don't want it higher. I'd almost like a dropped spindle or should I cut a coil out? Any suggestions or am I missing something here?

The B-body spindle swap is a common one but in addition to the shortened upper control arms you also need the correct lower ball joints and outboard tie rod ends. The B-body spindles use ball joints and tie rod ends with a different taper on the studs.

My 70 W-30 stops fine with factory manual disk brakes. Alternately you can use a hydroboost that provides power brakes using the power steering pump hydraulic pressure instead of vacuum or a Powermaster booster as used on the Buick turbo cars and some mid-80 B-body cars.

[Yellowstatue]

I think the Olds diesels and some other GM small cars had a vacuum pump to over come that problem...a fellow had a '70's Vette with one of those pumps to run his headlight doors and they just snapped open and closed!!

[442_Mustang]

So would I be better off getting aftermarket lower control arms or just putting the B body ball joints? I'm planning on locating parts over the summer months and doing the swap next fall/winter. The wife want's me to make it an automatic with PS/PB so she can drive it. That makes me want to keep it all manual even more.
Derrick

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by Yellowstatue

I think the Olds diesels and some other GM small cars had a vacuum pump to over come that problem...a fellow had a '70's Vette with one of those pumps to run his headlight doors and they just snapped open and closed!!

The diesels used two different versions over the years. There was a belt driven version (also used on some 307s in the early 1980s) and there was a version that replaced the distributor. You obviously can't use that one. There are also aftermarket electric vacuum pumps and reservoirs.

[442_Mustang]

I like the idea of manual discs to keep it simple and cleaner under the hood. If Joes stops fine, then I'll keep em non power. I'd like better brakes and I'm gonna run 17inch polished torq thrusts so room for bigger discs should be no problem.

[gearheads78]

15 years ago tall spindle was the hot ticket but it creates a undesirable bump steer issue. Best bang for the the buck is the SC&C stage II+ package. It uses Howe tall ball joints and custom upper control arms. The ultimate package is the ATS spindle but cost is a good bit more. I went with the stage II + plus on my car.

http://www.scandc.com/faqs.htm#3

[joe_padavano]

As an aerospace engineer specializing in structures, this is why the tall ball joints scare me:

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198416



The bottom line is that your are taking all the bending loads applied to the spindle and running them through a ball joint stud with considerably less cross sectional area than the spindle. Yes, with the appropriate selection of materials properties you might be fine, but as the photo above suggests, you might not. I don't think it's the best solution structurally.

[442_Mustang]

Wow, Thanks for the enlightenment,Joe. That isn't the result that I want. I'm aware of some strange setups. I was a ASE certified mechanic for years specializing in suspension/alignment. Then I got hired as a mechanic in a production body shop. A lot easier way to pay the bills in my opinion.That's why I came here to ask real world guys for input.I guess I'm gonna have to donate a lot of blood and plasma to get the proper front suspension geometry.(I hate that strange negative camber look when turning the wheels.) I know I can set it up right, just that right now the body biz is pretty slow and I'm paid on commision. Not making money here typing:-)

[gearheads78]

Joe I am very aware of that thread and it did have me 2nd guessing at first but if you read the whole thing you will see it was the chinese aftermarket spindle and not the ball joint that caused this failure. There are similar posts all over the net with broken ball joints all with A/M spindles. If you can afford it the AFX is the way to go but the Howe tall ball joints are the next best thing.

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by gearheads78

Joe I am very aware of that thread and it did have me 2nd guessing at first but if you read the whole thing you will see it was the chinese aftermarket spindle and not the ball joint that caused this failure. There are similar posts all over the net with broken ball joints all with A/M spindles. If you can afford it the AFX is the way to go but the Howe tall ball joints are the next best thing.

And as I said, I'm sure one can use the right materials and make it work. Structurally, it would not be my first choice, however.

[t bell]

Whoa. That AFX spindle is expensive. I was considering just changing the spindle to be able to run discs up front. I guess I'll drum it until I pony up enough for a spindle and arms. I'd hate to do just the spindle and then something break.

[gearheads78]

Originally Posted by t bell

Whoa. That AFX spindle is expensive. I was considering just changing the spindle to be able to run discs up front. I guess I'll drum it until I pony up enough for a spindle and arms. I'd hate to do just the spindle and then something break.

I would not hold my breath on the AFX right now. Tyler is having a lot of trouble getting the parts out. Bear supplier issues is what I hear but who knows. He shut his store down and works for Anvil now. ATS is just a side deal any more. Lots of people not so happy right now.

If you can get your hands on a set grab them.

[t bell]

Yeah, I read that over at lateral-g.net What spindle are you running on yours?

[gearheads78]

Originally Posted by t bell

Yeah, I read that over at lateral-g.net What spindle are you running on yours?

i have the whole SC&C stage II + kit that used the stock spindles and tall ball joints.

Contact Marcus... You won't regret it

[BerBer5985]

I'm also trying a setup like this. I ordered my stage II plus from marcus as well and I'm awaiting delivery. I'm excited to see how it works. Is it like night and day difference??

[t bell]

I just spoke with Mark too. Wealth of knowledge. B-body swap is out. I'm going to call Kore3 and inquire on their disc brake package that accepts C6 brakes. And later, when money is right, do the SC&C stage 2

[gearheads78]

Originally Posted by BerBer5985

. Is it like night and day difference??

Yup!!