1971 442 w30 ( fake or real)

[gpas]

Hi evreyone....I am interested on buying a 1971 442 w30,but need some info.....from what i have seen these cars dont come with bench seats or do they...this one has the correct hood 442 emblems ,air filter...I dont know what to look for to authenticate this car correctly...I am not sure about the bench seat...It has W 30 on the fenders ,has some cut outs on the hood...car is black on black with gold stripes and needs some resto...Thanks much any info will help me greatly...Ps I dont want to buy a fake...Thank you again gab

[4-4-2fast]

use the vin number and decode it. If you can see if you can get the engine number to make sure it is matching numbers car.

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by gpas

........ not sure about the bench seat ........

Buckets would have been an option.

In the day, not all buyers wanted to give up the "practicality" of bench seats, and "options" were how profit margins were increased.

Norm

[Wireman134]

Here is a link to a similar discussion... http://classicoldsmobile.com/forums/...html#post38786

Vin decoder http://www.v8cars.hu/oldsvin/decode.php

[Bluevista]

I looked at the 1971 4-4-2 standard equipment list (which is a copy of Oldsmobile literature) in the Sullivan guide and it reads;"Seats, Strato Bucket (with bright moldings)".

Would a W-30 option car be different than a standard 4-4-2 and have a bench seat?

If not it is a little suspicious but doesn't mean it isn't one. It is possible they deleted the buckets and got a bench, or for some reason took them out and put in a bench at a later time, usually it's the other way around.

Allan

[gpas]

Thanks guys....I will check for vin #s....Should i check anything else that will make it for sure a w30 442...Thanks ..Gab..Ps in the glove box i found a stiker that says F-85..What is this mean...

[Allan R]

Originally Posted by gpas

Thanks guys....I will check for vin #s....Should i check anything else that will make it for sure a w30 442...Thanks ..Gab..Ps in the glove box i found a stiker that says F-85..What is this mean...

Ok, the sticker in the glove box was probably the one with the tire pressure ratings. It will have all the Cutlass lines listed (f-85, 442, Cutlass, Cutlass Supreme) and is a generic sticker for ALL cars. Do not use it as a reference that your car is an f-85 or a 442 etc.

As others have mentioned, it would be a really good idea to have the VIN decoded.

While you're doing that, get out your digital camera and take some pictures of the car and post them on the site. I'm sure that everyone would appreciate that and be able to give you some great tips on what is correct or modified.

If the car has a W30 badge on each side (front fenders) they would be right above the 442 numbers. It should also be an indicator that the car would have a 455 BB and TH400. Also check the rear axle for a code on the axle shaft. If there is a posi tag on the diff cover that's a good thing.

Use the "Tech" section to find more answers about decoding the car, engine and options.

[gpas]

Thanks allan..I will take photos on mon or tuesday...THANKS FOR GREAT INFO GAB

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by 88 coupe

Buckets would have been an option.

In the day, not all buyers wanted to give up the "practicality" of bench seats, and "options" were how profit margins were increased.

Norm

While this is true for most models, it is not the case for the 442s. The base interior for the 442 was bucket seats with a 3 speed HD (Dearborn) manual trans. The console was an option. The optional automatic came with a column shifter and the floor shifter and console were options. The bench seat was available in the 442 as a CREDIT option. Go figure.

[gpas]

I dont understand what this means....IS THIS A RARE OPTION FOR W30...Theres a 1969 442 w31 on ebay that has bench and is four speed...The current bid is 35k.....Could this be a rare find...HMMMM....thanks for info...gab

[Jokers69]

just because it's old doesn't mean you can retire on it..
with that said, if it's really worth some $$

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by gpas

I dont understand what this means....IS THIS A RARE OPTION FOR W30...Theres a 1969 442 w31 on ebay that has bench and is four speed...The current bid is 35k.....Could this be a rare find...HMMMM....thanks for info...gab

You don't understand what what means? The 442 package came with bucket seats as the baseline configuration. If you wanted, you could order a bench seat instead and get a credit (something like $5 or $10) off the price. Very few ordered the bench. Keep in mind that "rare" does not always mean "valuable" since some things are rare because they were (and are) unpopular.

As for the 69 W-31 on ebay, it's a beautiful car, but the bid levels are meaningless until money actually changes hands. Most of the high dollar cars on ebay do not sell. Just search on "completed auctions" and count how many are "reserve not met".

[88 coupe]

Originally Posted by joe_padavano

........ The 442 package came with bucket seats as the baseline configuration ........

I need to remember not to wander out of my "comfort zone".

Norm

[Rohebo]

The W-30 was an option on the 442. Other than a build sheet, original invoice, window sticker, etc... there is no way to absolutely confirm the originality of a 442 being an original W-30.

With that said, here are some highlights:

1a. Through 1971 the VIN will tell you if a car is a 442 vs. a Cutlass/F-85. In 1972 the 442 became an option on the Cutlass (as opposed to a separate model), so the 1972 VIN does NOT confirm a 442.

1b. The big "BUT" to #1a is the 1972 W-30. The VIN format changed for 1972 and one of the digits indicates the engine code. So an "X" engine code on a '72 indicates the W-30 engine.

2. All W-30's were built in Lansing MI. You can check build location from the VIN and the cowl tag data plate. So if it's not a Lansing built car it's not a W-30.

3. I'll check one of my books on code #'s, but the heads, intake, distributor, carb and (automatic) transmission for W-30's all have unique codes. For the automatic trans the tag (on the passenger side) would be "OW" for W-30. I believe the rear-end code is also uniques, but I'll check my sources before posting.

4. A 4-speed W-30 would have manual disc brakes since the cam was different and didn't build up enough vacuum to support the power booster on power brakes. And I'm not 100% sure, but I think the 4-speed W-30 would not have A/C.

Good luck either way.

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by Rohebo

3. I'll check one of my books on code #'s, but the heads, intake, distributor, carb and (automatic) transmission for W-30's all have unique codes. For the automatic trans the tag (on the passenger side) would be "OW" for W-30.

Correct, however blank "OW" tags are available on ebay.

4. A 4-speed W-30 would have manual disc brakes since the cam was different and didn't build up enough vacuum to support the power booster on power brakes. And I'm not 100% sure, but I think the 4-speed W-30 would not have A/C.

Also correct. A/C was available with the 4 speed on the 442s but not on the W-30.

[wmachine]

Originally Posted by Rohebo

The W-30 was an option on the 442. Other than a build sheet, original invoice, window sticker, etc... there is no way to absolutely confirm the originality of a 442 being an original W-30.

With that said, here are some highlights:

1a. Through 1971 the VIN will tell you if a car is a 442 vs. a Cutlass/F-85. In 1972 the 442 became an option on the Cutlass (as opposed to a separate model), so the 1972 VIN does NOT confirm a 442.

1b. The big "BUT" to #1a is the 1972 W-30. The VIN format changed for 1972 and one of the digits indicates the engine code. So an "X" engine code on a '72 indicates the W-30 engine.

2. All W-30's were built in Lansing MI. You can check build location from the VIN and the cowl tag data plate. So if it's not a Lansing built car it's not a W-30.

3. I'll check one of my books on code #'s, but the heads, intake, distributor, carb and (automatic) transmission for W-30's all have unique codes. For the automatic trans the tag (on the passenger side) would be "OW" for W-30. I believe the rear-end code is also uniques, but I'll check my sources before posting.

4. A 4-speed W-30 would have manual disc brakes since the cam was different and didn't build up enough vacuum to support the power booster on power brakes. And I'm not 100% sure, but I think the 4-speed W-30 would not have A/C.

Good luck either way.

1a '68-'71 that is.

Yes, it *can* be verified if it is an automatic and has the orginal trans with an OW code and the matching VIN derivative on the trans.

Of course now-a-days even "proof" can be manufactured. Trans tags, body tags, paperwork even can be forged. It is getting ugly out there. Just be glad you're not into Vettes where these kinds of forgeries are going on wholesale.

[Rohebo]

Thanks to Joe for confirming some info above, and Wmachine for correcting that my VIN statement is true for '68 - '71 only (truth be told my "expertise" is for '70 to '72 only).

Now onto some #'s for 1971 W-30's:

Block: casting# 396021F and is NOT unique to W-30's, and is a '68 to '72 block.

Heads: "H" with casting #409160 and is exclusive to 1971 W-30.

Intake = Aluminum "W-455" intake casting #407570, and is exclusive to 1971 and 1972 W-30.

Carb-Automatic: 7041257 and was used on ALL 1971 442 including W-30.

Carb-Manual: 7041256 and was exclusive to 1971 W-30.

Exhaust Manifolds: Not exclusive to W-30, and used '69 - '72
Left: "W" 402295
Right: "Z" 402294

Distributor-automatic: 1112034 (unique to '71 + '72 W-30).

Distributor-manual: 1112036 (unique to '71 + '72 W-30).

Water Pump: #407586 for all 442 with A/C or HeavyDuty cooling (incl. W-30 with A/C=automatic).

Water Pump: #408329 for all W-30 and/or 442 wth 3.73 rear (excl. W-30 with A/C).

Manual Trans: I **think** that all 4-speed W-30 came with the M-22 muncie "rock crusher". You should be able to confirm M-22 from the sound.

Rear: Some W-30 rears were exclusive while others were not. Below I've listed all available and whether it was W-30 exclusive or not.

3.23 open "SR" (not exclusive)
3.23 posi "SS" (not exclusive)
3.42 posi "TM" (exclusive W-30)
3.73 posi "TO" (exclusive W-30)

An important item to also check on each component is the casting date. It will help confirm if the component could have been original to the car or not.

Wmachine also makes an excellent point about the trans VIN confirming originality. This also goes for an M-22 with matching VIN on a 4-speed W-30.

Bottomline. Unless you've got great paperwork you're going to have to do alot of homework to convince yourself (or not) that it's a legitimate W-30. I almost forgot to mention the red fenderwells, but they're readily available as repro's either way.

[wmachine]

Originally Posted by Rohebo

Thanks to Joe for confirming some info above, and Wmachine for correcting that my VIN statement is true for '68 - '71 only (truth be told my "expertise" is for '70 to '72 only).

Now onto some #'s for 1971 W-30's:

Block: casting# 396021F and is NOT unique to W-30's, and is a '68 to '72 block.

Heads: "H" with casting #409160 and is exclusive to 1971 W-30.

Intake = Aluminum "W-455" intake casting #407570, and is exclusive to 1971 and 1972 W-30.

Carb-Automatic: 7041257 and was used on ALL 1971 442 including W-30.

Carb-Manual: 7041256 and was exclusive to 1971 W-30.

Exhaust Manifolds: Not exclusive to W-30, and used '69 - '72
Left: "W" 402295
Right: "Z" 402294

Distributor-automatic: 1112034 (unique to '71 + '72 W-30).

Distributor-manual: 1112036 (unique to '71 + '72 W-30).

Water Pump: #407586 for all 442 with A/C or HeavyDuty cooling (incl. W-30 with A/C=automatic).

Water Pump: #408329 for all W-30 and/or 442 wth 3.73 rear (excl. W-30 with A/C).

Manual Trans: I **think** that all 4-speed W-30 came with the M-22 muncie "rock crusher". You should be able to confirm M-22 from the sound.

Rear: Some W-30 rears were exclusive while others were not. Below I've listed all available and whether it was W-30 exclusive or not.

3.23 open "SR" (not exclusive)
3.23 posi "SS" (not exclusive)
3.42 posi "TM" (exclusive W-30)
3.73 posi "TO" (exclusive W-30)

An important item to also check on each component is the casting date. It will help confirm if the component could have been original to the car or not.

Wmachine also makes an excellent point about the trans VIN confirming originality. This also goes for an M-22 with matching VIN on a 4-speed W-30.

Bottomline. Unless you've got great paperwork you're going to have to do alot of homework to convince yourself (or not) that it's a legitimate W-30. I almost forgot to mention the red fenderwells, but they're readily available as repro's either way.

Great info, Rohebo, but still needs some fine tuning according to my records:

In '71, the M22 replaced the M21 as the close ratio 4-speed. Only the M20 was offered in the Cutlasses. The M22 was available only on the 442, but was available on a "regular" 442 also. In fact, the M20 and the M22 were available on any 442, W-30 or otherwise. So matching a VIN to a M22 won't authenticate a W-30.

There are also no axle *ratios* exclusive to the W-30s. The 3.42s were the standard ratio for all 442s including W-30s. 3.73 gears were also available on other 442s. The G89 *heavy duty* 3.73 was exclusive to the W-30, and included the G80 Anti-Spin. The G92 *heavy duty* 3.42, though required on the W-30, was also available on all other 442s *and* Cutlass models (and did not include G80).

Sure ain't easy to follow.

[mugzilla]

Originally Posted by Rohebo

Thanks to Joe for confirming some info above, and Wmachine for correcting that my VIN statement is true for '68 - '71 only (truth be told my "expertise" is for '70 to '72 only).

Now onto some #'s for 1971 W-30's:

Block: casting# 396021F and is NOT unique to W-30's, and is a '68 to '72 block.

Heads: "H" with casting #409160 and is exclusive to 1971 W-30.

Intake = Aluminum "W-455" intake casting #407570, and is exclusive to 1971 and 1972 W-30.

Carb-Automatic: 7041257 and was used on ALL 1971 442 including W-30.

Carb-Manual: 7041256 and was exclusive to 1971 W-30.

Exhaust Manifolds: Not exclusive to W-30, and used '69 - '72
Left: "W" 402295
Right: "Z" 402294

Distributor-automatic: 1112034 (unique to '71 + '72 W-30).

Distributor-manual: 1112036 (unique to '71 + '72 W-30).

Water Pump: #407586 for all 442 with A/C or HeavyDuty cooling (incl. W-30 with A/C=automatic).

Water Pump: #408329 for all W-30 and/or 442 wth 3.73 rear (excl. W-30 with A/C).

Manual Trans: I **think** that all 4-speed W-30 came with the M-22 muncie "rock crusher". You should be able to confirm M-22 from the sound.

Rear: Some W-30 rears were exclusive while others were not. Below I've listed all available and whether it was W-30 exclusive or not.

3.23 open "SR" (not exclusive)
3.23 posi "SS" (not exclusive)
3.42 posi "TM" (exclusive W-30)
3.73 posi "TO" (exclusive W-30)

An important item to also check on each component is the casting date. It will help confirm if the component could have been original to the car or not.

Wmachine also makes an excellent point about the trans VIN confirming originality. This also goes for an M-22 with matching VIN on a 4-speed W-30.

Bottomline. Unless you've got great paperwork you're going to have to do alot of homework to convince yourself (or not) that it's a legitimate W-30. I almost forgot to mention the red fenderwells, but they're readily available as repro's either way.

I'm going to replace valve cover gaskets and check the numbers on a '70 442..

What should I be looking for on a non w-machine made in lansing ..?

[wmachine]

Originally Posted by mugzilla

I'm going to replace valve cover gaskets and check the numbers on a '70 442..

What should I be looking for on a non w-machine made in lansing ..?

Depends on what you're trying to find. The original poster was trying to find out if the subject car was a W-30. Are you trying to autenticate the 442?
344...... VIN confirms it as being a 442 model. The VIN derivative will be stamped on the engine and trans that would confirm the engine and trans being original to the car. What else are you looking for?

[mugzilla]

Originally Posted by wmachine

Depends on what you're trying to find. The original poster was trying to find out if the subject car was a W-30. Are you trying to autenticate the 442?
344...... VIN confirms it as being a 442 model. The VIN derivative will be stamped on the engine and trans that would confirm the engine and trans being original to the car. What else are you looking for?

The vin is correct and the block has the matching #s ...
i
I want to show that the heads,carb etc. are correct and original ...

[gpas]

Hello guys...I am the one with original post...Here goes nothing...The vin #...3087h2m113410...engine on driver side head..cfd- 409 160 H driver side bellow the head on very small flat area..81m153177 or B1m753177..My eyes cant make exact...On front of water pump 396021... i checked the vin and it comes up as 72, 350, motor build in Lansing,Michigan...I dont know anymore...It has the fender weels in red and look very original...I will post some pics this weekend...Thanks very much for all the info provided...Gab

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by gpas

Hello guys...I am the one with original post...Here goes nothing...The vin #...3087h2m113410...engine on driver side head..cfd- 409 160 H driver side bellow the head on very small flat area..81m153177 or B1m753177..My eyes cant make exact...On front of water pump 396021... i checked the vin and it comes up as 72, 350, motor build in Lansing,Michigan...I dont know anymore...It has the fender weels in red and look very original...I will post some pics this weekend...Thanks very much for all the info provided...Gab

OK, you've already decoded the VIN, so you know this is a 350 car from the factory. On the other hand, this is your lucky day. The 409160 H heads are 1971 W-30 heads. The block casting number is a 455 and the VIN derivative should actually be 31M753177, which is a 1971 Lansing built Olds motor. The heads are certainly 1971 W-30 parts and it's entirely possible that the whole motor is a 71 W-30 motor. Congrats.

The red fender wells were not offered in 1972, and would not have come on a 350 car in any case, but my money says they came from the same 1971 W-30 as the motor. Very possibly the 71 was wrecked (imagine that ) and the owner transferred the inner fenders and engine to the 72. Check the trans as well. If it's a TH400 with OW code and a VIN derivative that matches the one on the engine, jackpot.

[wmachine]

But you've now confirmed that this is a '72 car. However, there is still something not quite right with the VIN. I believe it is probably 3G87.......not 3087. Which makes it a Cutlass S hardtop. And being a '72, that means you're back to possibility that it is an original 442, though it can't be proven now one way or another.
But like Joe says, you may have a jacklpot of a drivetrain there. Not bad at all.

Mugzilla, best to not further hijack this thread and go start another if you want to persue your questions. I'll say this, though, the only numbers that can "match" on a '70 are the partial VINs on the engine and trans.

[Rohebo]

Wmachine,

Thanks for the correction on the M-22.

The info on the rear (and actually all of the #'s I listed) were taken from a 17 year-old copy of "442 by the number" from Supercars Unlimited. Chances are there aren't very many of us losing sleep over rear-end codes (if you can ever find them), but what the book implies is that the "TM" code (3.42) is unique to a W-30 ('70-'72) as well as the "TO" code (3.73 for '71). Perhaps the book is wrong or has been updated since 1991! I was throwing it out there as another way to identify a W-30 from a clone.

[wmachine]

Originally Posted by Rohebo

Wmachine,

Thanks for the correction on the M-22.

The info on the rear (and actually all of the #'s I listed) were taken from a 17 year-old copy of "442 by the number" from Supercars Unlimited. Chances are there aren't very many of us losing sleep over rear-end codes (if you can ever find them), but what the book implies is that the "TM" code (3.42) is unique to a W-30 ('70-'72) as well as the "TO" code (3.73 for '71). Perhaps the book is wrong or has been updated since 1991! I was throwing it out there as another way to identify a W-30 from a clone.

You're right, Rohebo, I don't think there are many as tenacious about the details as we are!
First I need to correct myself with what I previously said: The 3.73 *was* exclusive to the W-30
I have, and still use that booklet. Good info in there. I think the reason for the confusion is that in the format they used with the columns, and being required on the W-30 doesn't mean exclusive to the W-30.

[69ho aurora]

Originally Posted by wmachine

You're right, Rohebo, I don't think there are many as tenacious about the details as we are!
First I need to correct myself with what I previously said: The 3.73 *was* exclusive to the W-30
I have, and still use that booklet. Good info in there. I think the reason for the confusion is that in the format they used with the columns, and being required on the W-30 doesn't mean exclusive to the W-30.

I rarely believe the little details from non-factory books as I've seen too many mistakes over the years. I just checked the gearing page in the 71 assembly manual and found that 3.73 was available only on the W30 and posi was required. 3.42 was not unique to the W30, but on the W30 it was required to include posi. 3.42 was actually the standard rear on the 71 442 with std trans when NOT equipped with A/C. Posi was an extra option in those cases.

For 71, the W30 had only these rear options: with auto trans and A/C, 3.23 only (posi optional). For stick (no A/C allowed) or auto w/o A/C, 3.42 posi std with 3.73 posi the only other option. The W30 got code 'TM' for 3.42 posi and 'TO' for 3.73 posi. For the others, it was 'SE' for 3.42 open and 'SH' for 3.42 posi.

Al