Dealer installed 455

[442much]

My 442 has the T code in the VIN and has the 455. It was ordered that way from the factory. I am the second owner and bought the car when it was 3 years old and had 29000 miles. I've checked the numbers on mine and spoke with the original owner decades ago. I asked about the engine and wondered if he did anything with it. I didn't want to lead him on. I asked if he had any work done to it. He said "No". But he did recall having an issue about three months into ownership. He said there was a problem with the crank and it was covered under warranty

He said he brought the car back to the dealer and they had it for three days. After he picked it up he said it ran like a "scalded cat". He said he was very satisfied with it and the peformance was awesome.

Now to the point. The casting of my 1976 442's 455 engine is 396021F. The is no small letter A after that. That indicates a 1968-72 block. The pad where the serial number is located says 3635.

In 1979 after I got the car I took it to the track just to see how she ran. On street tires (GR70x15 Uniroyal Steel Belted Radial RWL) I ran a best time of 14.33 @ 97 miles per hour in the quarter mile. After some mods years later (true dual exhaust, ported & polished "C" heads, 9.75:1 pistons, Kenne-Bell cam, lifters etc.) the best time improved to 13.96 @ 103 miles per hour. Cars getting old and I haven't taken her to the track in decades.

So, did my car get a used engine? Was it a factory replacement? What do the four numbers mean if anything? Why would a dealership use an engine from an earlier body style. Thoughts? Opinions?

[wmachine]

Very interesting! Lots of ground to cover here. I will presume that the engine you got it with had J heads? And stock intake and carb?

Okay, the engine (at least the short block) was replaced. Used? not likely under warranty. Any 455 block would work for a service replacement, so an earlier year block is certainly possible. My guess is that a short block would be swapped out, not just the bare block. Service blocks come with blank VIN pads; I'd think the 3635 was simply an id number added by the dealer. Interestingly, I recall seeing more than one 400 engine numbers (stamped on a pad on the passenger head) with additional stamped 4 digit numbers. Presumed to be id numbers added sometime "down the road".
That all said, it is my opinion that 14.33 is too fast for a stock '76 442, regardless of the rear gears. I think the short block replacement was warmed up to start with. Any idea of what cam you pulled out?
Anyway, that's my take!

[442much]

Originally Posted by wmachine

Very interesting! Lots of ground to cover here. I will presume that the engine you got it with had J heads? And stock intake and carb?

Okay, the engine (at least the short block) was replaced. Used? not likely under warranty. Any 455 block would work for a service replacement, so an earlier year block is certainly possible. My guess is that a short block would be swapped out, not just the bare block. Service blocks come with blank VIN pads; I'd think the 3635 was simply an id number added by the dealer. Interestingly, I recall seeing more than one 400 engine numbers (stamped on a pad on the passenger head) with additional stamped 4 digit numbers. Presumed to be id numbers added sometime "down the road".
That all said, it is my opinion that 14.33 is too fast for a stock '76 442, regardless of the rear gears. I think the short block replacement was warmed up to start with. Any idea of what cam you pulled out?
Anyway, that's my take!

The heads were "J" but the manifold has "W455" on it. About 3-4 months after I bought the car I was intrigued with the shifter. I got a few books, spoke to a dealer but couldn't find anything about the shifter. So I called up the original owner and asked. He said that he had had a 442 before and wanted a "few goodies" on this one (which probably explains why the car has every factory option except air, vinyl roof and Twilight Sentinel).

He asked the dealer to order the car with a Hurst Dual Gate shifter among other things. The dealer contacted the factory and they said no. He told the dealer that he'd buy another make if he didn't get what he wanted. The factory basically said "Go buy another make then". The dealer however wanted to sell the car and told him to order it with what was available and the dealership would order the parts and install them once they arrived. So he did.

He got the dual gate shifter, an aluminum intake (W455) dual exhaust manifolds (although the car had a single exhaust) and 3:42 posi rear end. I had owned the car for a few months so I can't see him lying about this as he had nothing to gain. And from what I can see, the parts are there.

The information I got on the engine was years later when a guy drives by my car as I'm drying it after a wash. He gets out along with his wife and kids and says that he used to have one just like it. As we talked more and more things were falling into place. He had a car like this, same colour and interior. He sold it in Calgary, I bought mine there. His wife saw the little dealer plate on the trunk and then we knew, it was the original owner I was speaking with.

I was more into the history of the car at this stage and was involved in clubs and that's when I asked him if he'd done anything to the engine. He said that he thought the car just ran like it should once the crank problem was fixed. All I knew was one Saturday night in downtown Calgary a 69 or 70 Road Runner I can't remember which,with a 440 (or at least it said 440 on the hood) wanted a little light to light action. I was young and said sure. We both took off when the light turned green and his front bumper was in line with my side mirror on the door. I couldn't pull away, but he couldn't move up. I thought wow, they don't call them rockets for nothing.

Oh, No idea on the cam. I put in a Kenne-Bell cam with a 528 lift later on, and she really came alive...but sounds stock..

[wmachine]

Originally Posted by 442much

So I called up the original owner and asked. He said........
and
His wife saw the little dealer plate on the trunk and then we knew, it was the original owner I was speaking with.
.

Just so I got the story right, these 2 references are the same guy, right?

Still have the old cam, by chance?


Okay, this will be a bit long, so I hope nobody falls asleep.
Your car is a perfect example of what dealers can and would do. And what the factory won't do. I keep hearing "anything was possible from the factory, especially if you had $$ and/or connections". That is simply *not* true. Sure there were some exception to things, but that "reason" has been used to try to justify equipment that just didn't come from the factory that way. Dealer installations were a whole other matter, though. A dealer would and could do virtually anything they wanted to. There were warranty considerations, of course, but no other imposed restrictions that would prevent them from adding/subtracting/modifying. So when there are claims that "it came that way", dealer or factory makes a big difference.
Fortunately you have an excellent history trail to track your (very interesting) background. Please be sure to put it all in writing and keep it with your records. After all, we are honored custodians of these fine pieces of Americana, and our cars will still be here long after we are gone.
(My mission is to prevent truth-decay for the future)
Okay, that said:
Somewhere in my feeble memory, I recall a dealer modification, and it may even be yours. If not, it is very similar. This would have been maybe 15 years ago when I heard/read this? It was a '74, '75, or '76, and it was the original owner telling the story, I believe. Possibly a story in Journey With Olds? I recall that he wanted certain equipment on a Cutlass (don't remember it being a 442). One was a dual gate, and the other was a certain rear (don't recall exactly what). There may have been some other things, again I don't recall. The items were not factory options for the new Cutlass, but were previous years options. The dealer was bound and determined to sell him a new car, and dealer installed the items for him and he was happy. "People" keep telling him that the equipment was wrong, but he knew the real story.
Though some of the details have faded in my memory, it still made a impression with me because it factually illustrated what dealer installations can be like.

[Jamesbo]

So in theory. If a car came from the factory and blew an engine being unloaded off the truck. A dealer would put in a new engine and sell the car. Since no one back them [or today for that matter] checks # on their new car.

To continue the theory, this new non matching numbers [whatever that means] was driven home and was going to be given to the son on his Birthday. Unfortunately he was killed in a car wreck shorty before he turned 16. So The parents just stored the car until they passed. So our car becomes a "barn find" low milage Olds [let's say 442 for the sake of the story] WITHOUT MATCHING

[442much]

Originally Posted by wmachine

Just so I got the story right, these 2 references are the same guy, right?

Still have the old cam, by chance?


Okay, this will be a bit long, so I hope nobody falls asleep.
Your car is a perfect example of what dealers can and would do. And what the factory won't do. I keep hearing "anything was possible from the factory, especially if you had $$ and/or connections". That is simply *not* true. Sure there were some exception to things, but that "reason" has been used to try to justify equipment that just didn't come from the factory that way. Dealer installations were a whole other matter, though. A dealer would and could do virtually anything they wanted to. There were warranty considerations, of course, but no other imposed restrictions that would prevent them from adding/subtracting/modifying. So when there are claims that "it came that way", dealer or factory makes a big difference.
Fortunately you have an excellent history trail to track your (very interesting) background. Please be sure to put it all in writing and keep it with your records. After all, we are honored custodians of these fine pieces of Americana, and our cars will still be here long after we are gone.
(My mission is to prevent truth-decay for the future)
Okay, that said:
Somewhere in my feeble memory, I recall a dealer modification, and it may even be yours. If not, it is very similar. This would have been maybe 15 years ago when I heard/read this? It was a '74, '75, or '76, and it was the original owner telling the story, I believe. Possibly a story in Journey With Olds? I recall that he wanted certain equipment on a Cutlass (don't remember it being a 442). One was a dual gate, and the other was a certain rear (don't recall exactly what). There may have been some other things, again I don't recall. The items were not factory options for the new Cutlass, but were previous years options. The dealer was bound and determined to sell him a new car, and dealer installed the items for him and he was happy. "People" keep telling him that the equipment was wrong, but he knew the real story.
Though some of the details have faded in my memory, it still made a impression with me because it factually illustrated what dealer installations can be like.

The two references are the same guy. The orignal owner met on different occasions. That story in JWO was me telling the story. The rear end (gears) came from 1974, the manifolds from 1971, the shifter from 1973-75. Apparently all were still available through the dealer parts system.

I'm repeating this story to myself because people will ask me "Is the engine original?" and I usually say (without thinking) "Yes". I have to remember that yes, the car is a 455, ordered like that from the factory, however, there was a change, albeit a dealer installation. If they have time, I tell the story. If it's just a question in passing I say yes.

I'm not worried or upset about the change. I don't own the car beacuse of value, numbers or anything else other than it's part of the family. Besides, if people want to get picky, Yenko, Baldwin and other cars are have dealer installed engines too. Yenko took 396 Camaro's and bumped them up with 427 engines. Mine was a 455 for a 455. I was just courious about the 4 numbers. Heck, if I was that worried about it, I could pull the engine, shave the pad and stamp in the last remaining letterand six numbers. I'n not about to do that.

[wmachine]

Originally Posted by Jamesbo

So in theory. If a car came from the factory and blew an engine being unloaded off the truck. A dealer would put in a new engine and sell the car. Since no one back them [or today for that matter] checks # on their new car.

Of course, and nothing wrong with that. Selling a new car with a new engine and full warranty. Essentially no different than any other factory car.

Originally Posted by Jamesbo

To continue the theory, this new non matching numbers [whatever that means] was driven home and was going to be given to the son on his Birthday. Unfortunately he was killed in a car wreck shorty before he turned 16. So The parents just stored the car until they passed. So our car becomes a "barn find" low milage Olds [let's say 442 for the sake of the story] WITHOUT

Without a block that matches the VIN? Yup. This is only something that makes any difference now many years later in the collector arena. It doesn't have the block it left the factory with. Yes it is a technicality. But that is why it is important (to me at least) to understand what really went on, and not throw around vague and misleading terms like "numbers matching".

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by wmachine

Without a block that matches the VIN? Yup. This is only something that makes any difference now many years later in the collector arena. It doesn't have the block it left the factory with. Yes it is a technicality. But that is why it is important (to me at least) to understand what really went on, and not throw around vague and misleading terms like "numbers matching".

Let's keep in mind that VIN derivatives on the block, trans, and frame were federally mandated in an ill-fated attempt to combat auto theft. The intent was that by having traceability of these major components, chop shops would be less likely to have cars stolen for parts. RIIIIIGHT...

These federal regs applied to manufacturers, not dealers, however as emissions laws have tightened up the states have cracked down on engine replacements that do not conform to emissions certified configurations.

[442much]

Originally Posted by joe_padavano

Let's keep in mind that VIN derivatives on the block, trans, and frame were federally mandated in an ill-fated attempt to combat auto theft. The intent was that by having traceability of these major components, chop shops would be less likely to have cars stolen for parts. RIIIIIGHT...

These federal regs applied to manufacturers, not dealers, however as emissions laws have tightened up the states have cracked down on engine replacements that do not conform to emissions certified configurations.

Mine came with option Z95 (Catylitic Converter Delete). Not sure if that was a Canada only option but it did cut $30 from the sticker price.

[joe_padavano]

Originally Posted by 442much

Mine came with option Z95 (Catylitic Converter Delete). Not sure if that was a Canada only option but it did cut $30 from the sticker price.

I'm sure it was export only. Cats were federally required in the US from the 1975 model year onward. Canada lagged the US in mandating emissions equipment.

[442much]

Originally Posted by joe_padavano

I'm sure it was export only. Cats were federally required in the US from the 1975 model year onward. Canada lagged the US in mandating emissions equipment.

Probably had something to do with Canada being 1/10th of the US population and not having the same issues with air quality. Today in Alberta, there is still no emissions testing to pass to get your car registered. However, you hardly ever see a smoking junker on the road. If there's one on the road they are pulled over by the RCMP. I haven't seen one in years. It's either a newer car or a collector.

The province west of us (BC) is taking on California style restrictions and going one step further. It's getting tough there. My friend couldn't register his 63 Starfire there because the car couldn't squirt water on the windshield. Took him a few months to find the part.

There was a voluntary test about 10 years ago and I thought I'd see how my car would do. It car passed the emissions testing for the year it was built.

[wmachine]

Originally Posted by 442much

That story in JWO was me telling the story. The rear end (gears) came from 1974, the manifolds from 1971, the shifter from 1973-75. Apparently all were still available through the dealer parts system.

I'm repeating this story to myself because people will ask me "Is the engine original?" and I usually say (without thinking) "Yes". I have to remember that yes, the car is a 455, ordered like that from the factory, however, there was a change, albeit a dealer installation. If they have time, I tell the story. If it's just a question in passing I say yes.

I'm not worried or upset about the change. I don't own the car beacuse of value, numbers or anything else other than it's part of the family. Besides, if people want to get picky, Yenko, Baldwin and other cars are have dealer installed engines too. Yenko took 396 Camaro's and bumped them up with 427 engines. Mine was a 455 for a 455. I was just courious about the 4 numbers. Heck, if I was that worried about it, I could pull the engine, shave the pad and stamp in the last remaining letterand six numbers. I'n not about to do that.

Great Ken! That is definitely your car I'm remembering. What issue was that in? I want to be able to refer to that article in the future now that I've rediscovered it!!
I think that whole situation is a excellent snapshot (and well documented) of what can be and was done in the past. An excellent example of dealer installation on a new car. I think your Yenko/Baldwin analogy is accurate and a good way to put it in perspective.
I understand the problem you have with the questions about the car, because there is way more than one word answer.
Glad you're preserving the true heritage of that unique car. It is a jewel in many ways.

I'd still like to know what made it that fast. You didn't say, did you keep the old cam? Or is this just going to remain an unsolved mystery.......

[Jamesbo]

I going to pretend this is on topic.

My 69 442 drop top says Oldsmobile on the hood. No it's not spose to .............but when it was wrecked in the early 70's [by the prior owners I know] they took it to Jim Letts Olds here in Atlanta and the Dealership's body guy put it on there when he repaired the front end damage. Is it correct? Nope, but it was done by an authorized dealer.

I've just learned to live with it and not slit my wrist over these kind of issues. And outside of this board and a few other places, No one knows it's not spose to be there.

Back in the days when Customer service could make or break a dealership, they had the ability, parts and know how to do most anything they wanted. AND nobody ever heard or cared about this matching numbers stuff.

[442much]

Originally Posted by wmachine

Great Ken! That is definitely your car I'm remembering. What issue was that in? I want to be able to refer to that article in the future now that I've rediscovered it!!
I think that whole situation is a excellent snapshot (and well documented) of what can be and was done in the past. An excellent example of dealer installation on a new car. I think your Yenko/Baldwin analogy is accurate and a good way to put it in perspective.
I understand the problem you have with the questions about the car, because there is way more than one word answer.
Glad you're preserving the true heritage of that unique car. It is a jewel in many ways.

I'd still like to know what made it that fast. You didn't say, did you keep the old cam? Or is this just going to remain an unsolved mystery.......

I'll research the article tonight and let you know the issue. I don't know what cam it had. I don't know what made it that fast. I bought the car in 1979 and figured it was normal. An OCA advisor said that it was possible that I had "an assembly line freak" where everything works as it should. Of course when I wrote him, I didn't know about the engine swap.

The next time I saw the original owner was 1990 or 91. That's when I got the info on the crank. The engine was "warmed up" in Spring 1990. I was living in Jasper National Park at that time. The car really came alive after that. I'm just starting work now but will check in later. At lunch time I'm going to see her at the paint shop. She should be ready to take home any day now.