Wheel alignment or loony bin?
September 29th, 2018, 04:05 PM
#1
Chris
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Southern New Jersey
Posts: 1,284
Wheel alignment or loony bin?
So what's involved with aligning my wheels on my 72 cutlass? Just got it back on all four wheels with all new stock suspension parts and wondering if I should try this myself or am I crazy and should just go straight to the loony bin? Thanks!
chris
chris
September 29th, 2018, 05:14 PM
#2
Proud Viet Nam Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Rowlett, TX
Posts: 9,933
Find a good alignment shop and have it aligned. You really need a machine and know what you are doing. I would try and get the toe in as close as possible before head to the shop so you don't eat your tires up.
September 29th, 2018, 05:18 PM
#3
Chris
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Southern New Jersey
Posts: 1,284
Yeah. That's what I thought. Right now both wheels are slightly to the right and the drivers wheel is pointing in toward the top. Can I trouble you for a quick and dirty tutorial for adjusting the toe in? Is that the tie adjustment or does adjusting the tie Ross track the wheels left and right?
thanks!
chris
thanks!
chris
September 29th, 2018, 05:20 PM
#4
same but different
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Central Missouri
Posts: 2,861
A guy can get in close in his driveway, but like red says, you'll have to take it to a shop for final adjustment.
How does it look now? Its a nice feeling to finally get it on all fours isn't it?
In the past I've always used the old tie rods as a guide and install the new ones at the same length/turns. Just lay them down together and get them as close as possible. I know, you're already past this point.
How does it look now? Its a nice feeling to finally get it on all fours isn't it?
In the past I've always used the old tie rods as a guide and install the new ones at the same length/turns. Just lay them down together and get them as close as possible. I know, you're already past this point.
September 29th, 2018, 05:20 PM
#5
Registered User
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 142
If you put the shims back in the same spot you removed them from then you can set toe and probably be in the ball park. That's what I did with my last build, it drives straight and doesn't pull. I have access to an alignment rack at work, but haven't got it in yet and the way it drives I'm really not too concerned about it.
September 29th, 2018, 05:22 PM
#7
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Chesapeake, VA
Posts: 3,210
I dunno if that's a job for the average wrench turner. I took my 72 to get an alignment right after I first bought it, and while they were able to get it close, the mechanic told me I needed more shim adjustment on the control arms. To do this, the control arms have to be removed. From what he told me, it's a pretty labor intensive evolution, and the cost would be $450. And no, it wasn't Tread Quarters...it's a local shop that specializes in older vehicle suspension work and alignment.
So my advice would be to leave this one to the experts😀
Dave
So my advice would be to leave this one to the experts😀
Dave
September 29th, 2018, 05:31 PM
#8
Registered User
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 142
Seems we all replied at once. If the drivers wheel is leaning in than your camber is way negative and you need to get it aligned. Caster/camber needs to be set first then toe. Find a good shop that knows how to align older cars. If there is a shop that specializes in commercial trucks near by they usually will be able to do it right.
September 29th, 2018, 05:45 PM
#9
Chris
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Southern New Jersey
Posts: 1,284
Thanks for all your replies! I put my phone down for ten minutes to wash dishes and I saw this flurry of messages. (By the way, before you bust my chops about washing dishes, doing that and other light housework in addition to fixing most stuff that goes wrong earns me lots of points with my wife and points equal car time 😉
.
I put new shims in the control arms in the same places and numbers that I took them out as per the photos I took before taking them apart. Unfortunately Im not sure if I got all the thicknesses right but could the wrong thickness make that big of a difference? As for the tie rods, I just made them equal ok either side of the sleeve, probably not how they were originally. So I thought I'd be close but I guess not... I'll take your advice and bring it to a shop. Should be easy to find a place that does commercial trucks. Thanks!
chris
. I put new shims in the control arms in the same places and numbers that I took them out as per the photos I took before taking them apart. Unfortunately Im not sure if I got all the thicknesses right but could the wrong thickness make that big of a difference? As for the tie rods, I just made them equal ok either side of the sleeve, probably not how they were originally. So I thought I'd be close but I guess not... I'll take your advice and bring it to a shop. Should be easy to find a place that does commercial trucks. Thanks!
chris
September 29th, 2018, 05:52 PM
#10
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 13,732
September 29th, 2018, 06:08 PM
#11
Administrator
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Poteau, Ok
Posts: 40,521
I dunno if that's a job for the average wrench turner. I took my 72 to get an alignment right after I first bought it, and while they were able to get it close, the mechanic told me I needed more shim adjustment on the control arms. To do this, the control arms have to be removed. From what he told me, it's a pretty labor intensive evolution, and the cost would be $450. And no, it wasn't Tread Quarters...it's a local shop that specializes in older vehicle suspension work and alignment.
So my advice would be to leave this one to the experts😀
Dave
So my advice would be to leave this one to the experts😀
Dave
September 29th, 2018, 06:22 PM
#12
Chris
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Southern New Jersey
Posts: 1,284
One thing that I didn't mention is that since I just dropped the car this afternoon, I haven't torqued down any of the suspension parts yet. I was told that the car should be down and have weight on it before I torque to specs. Could that have anything to do with why it looks so out?
Chris
Chris
September 29th, 2018, 06:30 PM
#13
72 Olds CS
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 6,657
I think he was saying to get it into spec would require excessive shims and the offset upper control arm cross shaft would be needed.
chris make sure you don't torque the fr and rr upper and lower control arm bolts until the entire car weight is on the suspension.
i just had my 72 aligned based on Eric's prior advice I had the guy give me as much positive caster as he could I ended up at + 2 caster. The original spec is 0 to -2 caster. The positive caster makes the front wheels have a more on center feel. For the camber and toe he followed the original spec. The car drove straight before but on center feel was vague, now the car feels more like a modern vehicle. Other steering improvements I've made are fast ratio box and 1.25" fr and 1" rr sway bars
chris make sure you don't torque the fr and rr upper and lower control arm bolts until the entire car weight is on the suspension.
i just had my 72 aligned based on Eric's prior advice I had the guy give me as much positive caster as he could I ended up at + 2 caster. The original spec is 0 to -2 caster. The positive caster makes the front wheels have a more on center feel. For the camber and toe he followed the original spec. The car drove straight before but on center feel was vague, now the car feels more like a modern vehicle. Other steering improvements I've made are fast ratio box and 1.25" fr and 1" rr sway bars
September 29th, 2018, 06:36 PM
#14
Chris
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Southern New Jersey
Posts: 1,284
Retro, ok I'll ask for as much positive caster as possible and leave the rest to specs. And I haven't torqued anything yet. What kind of fast ratio Box do you have? Are there any power steering boxes and pumps from late model cars that would easily bolt in with minimal modifications to get that modern car feel? I do want to get it driving first so I can reexperience what th car feels like with its old fashioned big car steering. It's been a while since I drove it and I'm getting excited to think that I'm getting closer with every mini project I complete. Thanks so much guys!
chris
chris
September 29th, 2018, 07:08 PM
#15
same but different
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Central Missouri
Posts: 2,861
Hey, Happy spouse, Happy house. Ain't nothing wrong with doing a few dishes.
If she wants to rebuild the car and mow the grass, I'll do the laundry instead.
Its a team effort.
Glad to see the responses to your questions. That means everything is working right.
Rock on!
If she wants to rebuild the car and mow the grass, I'll do the laundry instead.
Its a team effort. Glad to see the responses to your questions. That means everything is working right.
Rock on!
September 30th, 2018, 04:41 AM
#16
Chris
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Southern New Jersey
Posts: 1,284
Don you gave me a good laugh! Thanks! So just to be sure, retro said to be sure to have weight on it before I tighten the upper and lower control arm bolts in the front and rear. But what about the rest of the suspension? I haven't torqued anything down. Should everything else be torqued down before the car is down or should that all be done when the car is down? I'm talking end links, center link, sway bar, etc? Thanks!
chris
chris
September 30th, 2018, 05:46 AM
#17
Registered User
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 142
The center link is part of the steering system and all that should have been torqued before lowering car. The only thing you have to worry about is the control arm bolts that connect the arms to the frame. I'd they are torqued with the suspension hanging you can put the bushings in a bind.
September 30th, 2018, 06:02 AM
#18
Old(s) Fart
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 47,259
The center link is part of the steering system and all that should have been torqued before lowering car. The only thing you have to worry about is the control arm bolts that connect the arms to the frame. I'd they are torqued with the suspension hanging you can put the bushings in a bind.
Lower control arm to frame bolts
Upper control arm to shaft nuts
Front sway bar bushing brackets to frame bolts
And for completeness, all eight rear suspension bushing bolts must also be torqued at ride height.
September 30th, 2018, 06:19 AM
#19
Registered User
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Pontiac, MI
Posts: 142
To clarify, there are three types of front suspension fasteners that need to be torqued with the suspension at ride height. All the rest can be torqued anytime.
Lower control arm to frame bolts
Upper control arm to shaft nuts
Front sway bar bushing brackets to frame bolts
And for completeness, all eight rear suspension bushing bolts must also be torqued at ride height.
Lower control arm to frame bolts
Upper control arm to shaft nuts
Front sway bar bushing brackets to frame bolts
And for completeness, all eight rear suspension bushing bolts must also be torqued at ride height.
September 30th, 2018, 06:35 AM
#20
Chris
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Southern New Jersey
Posts: 1,284
Ok. So if I'm understanding correctly I can still torque everything down with the car at ride height with no negative implications. Thanks so much guys. I truly appreciate your help!
Chris
Chris
September 30th, 2018, 07:14 AM
#21
Old(s) Fart
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 47,259
The only issue would be access to get a torque wrench on all the fasteners. Of course, be sure the tapered studs are properly seated in the mating parts for all the steering linkage. I don't know how loose you left the nuts.
To your original question on DIY alignment, I do my own alignments, however I have turn tables for the front wheels and a caster/camber gauge. It is not difficult if you have the right tools, however there is a non-trivial equipment investment to be made.
To your original question on DIY alignment, I do my own alignments, however I have turn tables for the front wheels and a caster/camber gauge. It is not difficult if you have the right tools, however there is a non-trivial equipment investment to be made.
September 30th, 2018, 12:34 PM
#23
Chris
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Southern New Jersey
Posts: 1,284
So just so I have a good and safe starting point before I get it to the shop, what's the minimum that the tie rods have to be in the sleeve connector? If you look at the picture, both the inner and outer tierods are in the sleeve about the same number of threads. However the drivers wheel obviously need to be adjusted outboard and the passenger onboard to track straight.
September 30th, 2018, 01:53 PM
#24
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 13,732
I would get the wheels off the ground using jack stands, center the steering wheel, then adjust so both wheels are pointing forward. Set toe to about 1/8" by measuring the distance between the front edge and rear edge of the wheels with a tape measure.
September 30th, 2018, 07:39 PM
#25
same but different
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Central Missouri
Posts: 2,861
Hey, I wanted to wish you continued good luck and point out something that might be obvious. I don't see any grease any where around your ball joints and other zerc fittings. Thats mostly a good thing, but wanted to remind you to give those areas a couple of squirts with grease gun if you haven't all ready.
You don't want those areas too greasy for now, but they'll need some lube if not.
You don't want those areas too greasy for now, but they'll need some lube if not.
October 1st, 2018, 03:05 PM
#26
Chris
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Southern New Jersey
Posts: 1,284
Hi don! You're absolutely right. I haven't greased anything yet. Should I do that before the car is down and everything is torqued or does it not matter? Also is there a brand/grade of grease that you would recommend? Thanks for your well wishes!!
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
