GaWajn

Got the old girl out of hibernation today and changed the oil.

After doing quite a bit of research, I have decided to go with the original manufacturer weight of 10W30.

I have selected the Valvoline max life oil. I hope it will swell the seals a bit and reduce leaking (as they claim), but I mainly went with this brand because I found that scientific data rated this oil very highly in the non full synthetic type. It is a synthetic blend.

For better or worse ... that's the brand I will be using for the next few oil changes anyways.

Thanks for all your input.

GaWajn

I changed the spark plugs this PM. Seven of the plugs looked like the plug on the right in the above photo. The plug on the left was from the number one cylinder ... just where the suspected bad lifter/rocker/push rod was thought to be. This would seem to confirm that bad things are going on in the neighborhood of the number one hole.

Ozzie

This is probably confirmation that there is something which requires a bit of attention on #1. It may not be serious. Sometimes it's just a failed oil seal which fouls the plug. Check everything you can regarding #1. Be sure there is sufficient voltage to fire the plug correctly consistently. A bad plug is possible; I was going to suggest swapping that plug with one of the other cylinders, but the new plugs will probably answer that question. The compression test would be helpful. The most serious things would be cylinder, rings, piston, head, or cam lobe damage. (Be sure to keep that ZDDP at a sufficient level.) Valve train problems would be much easier. More investigation is needed. Keep us informed.

Eightbanger

Lovely to see her out in the sunshine again Stephen....

My oily plugs were due to the seals having deteriorated, not surprising really when you consider the state of everything else on my car.

GaWajn

I may have gotten the car out of storage a day too soon ...

Eightbanger

Are you kidding....lol

She even looks beautiful covered in snow

GaWajn

I borrowed a leak down tester. The resulting data from the test should give me a better idea of what the problem might be.

GaWajn

Here are the results of my testing today. First number is the cylinder number. The second number is the compression in PSI. The third number is the percentage of leakdown followed by the leakage symptom.

1 - 170 - 15%
2 - 180 - 13%
3 - 110 - 80% - Exhaust
4 - 130 - 65% - Exhaust
5 - 160 - 20%
6 - 170 - 15%
7 - 175 - 14%
8 - 155 - 22%

The ticking valve is in the area of cylinder 1 or 3. The sooty plug was on number 1.

I await your comments on the results of the testing ...

Ozzie

Except for numbers 3 & 4 things seem reasonable. Your notation seems to indicate that you have established the shortfalls as the exhaust valves. Such is likely. As 3 & 4 are on opposite banks, it might come down to head removal and inspection & improving the seating of the valves. If the shortfall is in the exhaust valves, continued operation without repair could make the situation worse. Since #1 did reasonably well, the dark plug may be due to something else (like a valve oil seal or a shortfall with the ignition). Opening the engine's top would also provide an opportunity to inspect & possibly clean the lifters. Hopefully someone else will comment. Many views would be helpful.

GaWajn

Thank you for the comment Ozzie.

Just came back from the engine rebuilders. I wanted to have their opinion of the situation with the engine.

As far as the sooty plug ... that could be many different things ... not a big concern at the moment.

As far as the ticking sound coming from the valvetrain ... they said to remove the valve cover and determine which valve is causing the tick. If need be ... remove the rockers and investigate for damage of the rocker, pushrod or lifter. The results of the investigation will probably tell us if there is any cam damage or not. This step has been recommended by many of you as being the first order of business.

The leakdown test indicates that two of the cylinders have a serious leak in the exhaust vale area. This could be caused by exhaust valve seat pounding, a cracked seat, a burnt valve etc ... the heads should be removed for further investigation.

They also said that the lower compression in the two offending cylinders had next to no leakage into the crankcase, indicating that the ring sealing was pretty good.

Their best guess was that I could probably get by with just fixing the bad valves, but that they would recommend doing a complete valve job on both heads.

So the first step is to order a set of valve cover gaskets so that I can open her up and identify what is causing the tick.

... to be continued ...

Ozzie

You "might" be able to detect exactly which valve (train) is making the noise by placing your finger on the rockers (one at a time) while the engine is running or feeling for "play" in the train while the engine is stopped. Sometime a lifter will become "varnished" or just plain "gunked up" and will not expand to produce a zero lash condition. If that happened, it can be corrected by disassembling the lifter, cleaning it, and reassembling. Also, on these engines sometime the valve train can become starved for oil. The oil feeds through the shaft to each individual rocker. On my '55 one rocker "polished" its oil port on the shaft sufficiently to stop the oil flow. Re-grooving of the shaft resolved the problem.
It's good news that the piston & cylinder areas are probably O.K.
While you're getting the cover gaskets you could also get the other gaskets to do the head work. It will likely come to that. The gaskets are available, but not everyone will have them "on the shelf".

GaWajn

I got the gaskets and a lifter in the mail yesterday.



I removed the valve cover ...



... it's a little gunky and milky in there ...



... one valve spring seems to be dry and rusty ...

I checked and found the loose valve ...

http://s688.photobucket.com/user/GaW...0co8i.mp4.html

... so next ... I should remove the rocker arm and inspect the rocker and pushrod for the bad valve?

PS: I tried to hit the offending rocker at the pushrod side with medium blows of a hammer, as the manual says to try. No difference ...

Eightbanger

I would pull the valve train next, remove the inlet manifold and valley cover to access everything, your going to be doing this anyway in order to install that new lifter, as Ozzie has said you may get away with just disassembling the old lifter and cleaning it out. While your in there you could also check the small holes on the ends of the rockers to see if they are blocked...mine certainly were, every single one, they help the oil flow between the arms and the shaft, and check out the oil drain holes at either end of the cylinder head too, they may be blocked.

Ozzie

As Nigel said, a general clean up is in order. The milkiness is usually due to moisture. The rust could be due to lack of oil flow. Remove the rocker arms and tube as an assembly (remove the bolts which hold the tube "stands"), then disassemble the assembly, being careful to note the order so everything can go back where it came from. This job will provide knowledge about the need for using the proper engine oil and changing it when appropriate. After everything is clean, do an inspection for wear and any other damage. I could use a bit more clarification on "I checked and found the loose valve ...". That sounds significant. Valves are generally not "loose". Proceed with care and send an update when you can.

GaWajn

Not really a loose valve ... found the slack ... causing the valve tick. The second valve (lifter/rocker/pushrod/cam lobe) from the front is the culprit.

Click the link below to the short video to see the slackness ...

http://s688.photobucket.com/user/GaW...0co8i.mp4.html

GaWajn

The rockers look pretty good. There is slight wear on the ball end of the second rocker from the left ... which is the one with slack.



Here you see the pieces that go between the pushrods and the rockers. The one on the left looks good but the one on the right is very worn. I am thinking that this is the source of the slack. This part needs to be replaced anyways. The good one measures .157 thousanths depth ... the worn one is at .295 thou ...

The pushrods seem to have no wear.

I stupidly lifted the offending lifter out before checking the rockers etc ... now I will have to remove the center dome and valley pan to access the lifter area. DOH! That lifter may be just fine!

I will now need to try and find out why that little part was worn so bad ???

Ozzie

You may have already found the problem, but when you have a "train" with slack, it is best to examine the entire train to insure that the repair will be complete. Often a "stuck" lifter can cause another part to wear excessively due to the pounding. Now you can disassemble the lifter and do a complete examination. When you are done you can feel better about the job. I once had a stuck lifter and ended up cleaning all 16 to get back to "clean". "Varnish" was the problem.

GaWajn

Is there anywhere I can get those new parts? I don't see them in the fusick catalogue ...

Eightbanger

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Oldsmobile-3...dW2fj8&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rocker-Arms-...9iaHXg&vxp=mtr

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Rocker-Arm...IXctag&vxp=mtr

GaWajn

Thanks Nigel ... but those parts I don't need ... I just need the small part that goes between the pushrod and the rocker.

Eightbanger

Which part Stephen? the push rod sits in the lifter at the bottom end, and just under the rocker arm at the top end...unsure of the part between push rod and rocker.

GaWajn

These go between the pushrods and the rockers ... one per rod of course. There are two in the picture to show the difference between the good one and the worn one.

Ozzie

I don't have a resolution to your original question of a source, but I have a bit more information to offer. Your rocker arms appear to be adjustable. All the "stock" Oldsmobile stage one engines that I've worked on had fixed rockers with zero lash provided by the hydraulic lifters. Whenever I saw adjustable rockers on them it was always aftermarket rockers. The Olds parts book shows some brass rocker inserts on the intake (only) rockers on the 1949-1951 engines. This also doesn't agree with what you have. I'm wondering, unless you know the history of the car back to "new", could what you have be an aftermarket valve train? If so you will not find the pieces you seek at conventional sources. It's also probable, if it's an aftermarket, that it is no longer in production. Take a look at the parts book, group 0.333, and see what you think.

Eightbanger

That's why I couldn't work out what those parts were, mine is just the lifter rod and rocker....could he just buy a complete set of rods, lifters and rockers and go back to standard Ozzie, or would it be more involved than that?

Ozzie

It might be that only the rockers themselves were changed. It would require an examination of the "train" components to be sure. If the lifters were the originals (and not solid) and the remainder of the train was "stock" then a set of rockers, as you had found on eBay, would get it back to the original configuration. The alternative would be to use what is there and attempt to adjust the lash with the adjusters to get a satisfactory performance. Having a knowledge of the status of the lifters would be very helpful. Perhaps a cleaning and inspection project might be in order. Using a solid lifter would require a "gap" at the rocker/valve stem tip interface, while a hydraulic lifter would allow for a zero lash condition. Some engines (like the small block Chevy engine) used an adjustment of the rockers to "center" the hydraulic lifter's piston within its travel range. The rockers did appear to have a bit of wear on the rockers' valve end. If a gap were needed there, the rockers' tips should be dressed smooth. Another thing to be wary of is that sometime the adjusters on adjustable rockers have been known to "creep" under service, producing a gap wider than desired. Perhaps the Oldsmobile engineers were trying to avoid this by using the "fixed" train. The elimination of periodic adjustments of an adjustable train would be another reason to go with hydraulic lifters. If I didn't know the history of the engine, I would begin by a complete cleaning of the valve train and a determination of what is stock and what has been changed.

GaWajn

This information is very interesting.

I agree that the parts books do not jive with the parts as found in this engine.

I will not be changing the train to go back to stock ... I will probably take a look at all the lifters to assess their condition ... also the pushrods ... also the inserts. I can probably have one made to replace the overworn one. That would resolve my valve ticking problem. There might be another that has some wear ... an inspection will reveal all.

A good cleaning of the train is also in order to make certain that everything is being oiled as it should.

I will try to get to that in the coming week ...

I will also need to get gaskets for the center dome and valley pan I believe.

GaWajn

I have found someone to make me a new part, but he has no heat treating facilities. Not knowing what hardness I need ... I would be pretty much flying blind.

I wonder ... if I install one new lifter/pushrod/rocker from Fusick ... to replace the bad unit ... would that not be a good fix?

Some would say replace everything ...

I do not as a rule, change parts that do not need replacing. I am trying to find a low cost fix for this problem.

Your thoughts?

Eightbanger

Stephen I don't think going back to stock on just that one would be good, I'm not a mechanic by any means but it would worry me that things may be out of balance somehow.
The obvious unavailability of the parts and the lack of info in any of the manuals and parts books would make me want to go back to stock, I know it's not the cheapest but cheap in this instance may mess the motor up and cost even more in the long run...IMHO.

GaWajn

Just using common sense about it ... the rocker is not a rotating assembly so I don't think balance would be an issue. Correct me if I am wrong please.

GaWajn

This being said ... I have the six bolts and four nuts of the dome off the engine. The dome will not come off. It feels like it's glued in there ... or I am missing some other fastners that need to come off. I don't want to break anything. Is there something I am missing? Or are these things just hard to take apart?

Eightbanger

That's all there is to remove, I can see the temp sensor wire is also removed, pull your rad hose off the thermostat housing and don't forget to open the drain ***** on the block to help drain the coolant.
Then your good to go, i'd say it's probably RTV holding it down, you may have to use something to pry it up, (I did) because leaning over that far wont give you enough pull, and it's quite heavy.

I think you underestimate your own ability's, you are in the middle of removing the same stuff I have, I would love to have had my Olds look as clean and in good overall condition as yours, have you seen the pics of my engine? so why not do the top end to resolve the issue, I think you already did the oil and filter and drive that beautiful car, I have found the 303 a very straight forward engine to work on and as I said your already doing it...
We're all here to help.

Pics to inspire you...lol

GaWajn

WOW!!!

Now that is gunky!

I guess I am just a chickenshit mechanic After using a screwdriver and hammer ... with a little bit of tapping ... the dome came right off.

Eightbanger

Good news!!

I am too, it takes a lot of Dutch courage and a shot of JD usually to make me undo that first bolt...lol but when i'm in there i love it.

I know, my car was so poorly looked after, moisture filled engine and interior riddled with mice...

Eightbanger

Sorry missed this one..

English terminology, not literally meant, more like out of the norm, i.e one operating slightly different than the rest.

GaWajn

Understood Nigel. It's all good

Here are pictures of the lifter from the ticking assembly. There seems to be no wear on the underside of the lifter. I would assume that is good news! This lifter is stuck in the up position. It may be stuck because it is full of oil though. I don't know how to test it. If i press down on the top with a pushrod ... it won't budge. If I try this on the new lifter, it moves rather easily. It has no oil in it though.









If I change the lifter out for a new one ... and if I could just find an new insert ... I would have it fixed I think!

Eightbanger

Man, your top half is so clean I would have no real worries about the bottom end looking at that...definitely dismantle and clean that lifter first, if nothing else out of curiosity to see if repairable, if it proves to be a problem then replace it with the one you bought.

Those other parts/adjusters are the stumbling block, But, perhaps if the lifter is repaired/replaced then the worn component could be adjusted to suit the now working lifter...I think Ozzie already said this.

GaWajn

There is just too much wear on the original part to be able to reuse. I must find a new one or have one made I think.

Eightbanger

Ok, if that's the case and you say you have someone who can do it, go for it, I think the issue won't be the heat but the strength of the metal to take the stresses and wear.

Ozzie

I don't know if I'm seeing/interpreting the photos correctly, but it looks like one is a "solid" lifter while the other one is a hydraulic lifter. It is quite usual for solid lifters to be used with adjustable rocker arms. If those pieces in question are not too severely worn, you could "dress" the valve ends of the rockers, and perhaps take out any dimensional differences with the adjusters on the rockers.

GaWajn

The three pictures of the lifter, in the above posts, are one and the same. They show the bottom ... top ... and side of the lifter. It looks to be identical to the hydraulic lifter I received from Fusick. I don't understand what you mean Ozzie? Am I missing something? What makes you think that it is a solid lifter? I ask this because I want/need to know ...