Aceshigh

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2004R...Q5fAccessories

OR

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2004R...item51941f69c6

Seems to be an inexpensive OD option for now, looking for opinions or alternatives.

I'm trying to consider ALL options for OD this Spring since my T-56 isn't going in.
65mph I'm turning 3,000 rpms with a 27" tire and 3.73 gears.
If I swap to this .67 final gear OD I'll be turning 2000rpms instead.

J-(Chicago)

My Opinions:

-Get a Gear Vendors unit,or a 4L80E with Art Carr kit setup.

-Don't mess around with the metric trans.

-Either way it's gonna be a waste of $$$.

-Best bet is putting your manual trans in, or keeping the 3 speed auto and getting a more efficient torque converter.

-Many intelligent guys would disagree with me, because of price differences, but I really do think those metrics are dog ****.


This is not an insulting poke at you Aceshigh, it is more so a generalized rant in my head.......

Why does everyone always have this problem? People buy a "muscle car", throw a ridiculous gear in it, and then cry about the way it drives on the highway. Not to mention Olds engines do not need to rev to 7k to make power.
People need to purpose plan their machinery.

Rickman48

I, too, thought the 200r4 was junk, and it is, in STOCK form.
When the GN guys found a way to run 10's with it, it gained a lot of respect, in my eyes.
Don't know how much torque they'll take, or how much the turbo V/6 puts out, though.
There are a few good trans. shops around Chicago - call around and save at least the shipping! I think TCI is/was on Oak Park and Ogden?

jo75olds

For that price you might as well get a 700r4 from monster trans

The Stickman

Actually Art Carr really likes the 200 4R. Says he can build them up to 1000hp and likes them better than the 700R4 for a variety of reasons. But don't confuse Art Carr with Art Carr transmissions as they are no longer associated with each other.

matt69olds

I see no mention of a hardened input housing (sometimes refereed to as a forward clutch), thats a big well known weak link. I seriously doubt the stock one would stand 600 hp, I'm laughing at the thought of 700hp. I'm guessing its a basically stock rebuild with aftermarket servo, rebuilt higher stall converter and a shift kit. It might reliably handle 350 hp.

Aceshigh

I'm going to look locally.

Hardened drum??....yeah no mention of that.
I have to call today , I have a list of questions I pulled from Jake's site
and this 442 site for 2004-R info. I'm also seeking a Buick , Olds, or Chevy
core and not a rebuild Caddy one because they have the lowest line pressure.

Jake was telling me that the BRF (Grand National) Valve Bodies aren't the only desirable ones.
I just haven't heard back from him which other one's are also good ones for line pressure.
I know the OZ (Olds) had the highest apparently according to the 442 info site.

No worries, because technically it doesn't apply to me, I had a plan.
This is partially why I was going to pull my engine with you fall last year....but I hit a snag for time.

I bought my 12 Bolt rear end with 3.73 gears SPECIFICALLY to match the LS1 T-56 final
gear ratio of .50 with my tire height to hit 1500rpm @ ~65mph. I bought both Jan 2010 together.

So this wasn't a blind gear toss in to be giddy off a dig without thoughts of driveability.
Problem is, I've realized the pilot bearing adaptors for undrilled cranks are garbage, so that
leaves me with no choice but to have to remove the crank, and have it drilled. So now
we're talking more $$$$ to mate up the T-56......and the Olds engine probably isn't
staying long enough to justify all those parts needed to mate it.

I'm going to hold onto the T-56 for the LS possible move next year.
This year I have to sell and buy bigger (house) so it's too much to invest time and $$
into for 2011. I was looking for a cheap OD alternative for now. That's why this $1000
unit would have served the purpose for 2011 and gotten sold in 2012 most likely
OR.....I could keep it longer if I was happy with it.

Gas is going to hit close or @ $4 a gallon this summer. I enjoy driving my car and
I'd rather give the money to a builder then the oil axis of evil. Plus, I can resell
and recoup $$$.

Might not be a wise investment, or smart......but that's just how I am about it.

I had a Stage II 700R4 from CK Performance I got from Chris in 2003. Thing was awesome....
but I sold it with my Chevy 350 4 years ago to subsidize my LS1/4L60e install
It's got a hell of a steep 1st gear with 3.06 IIRC but they don't mate up as easily.

Problem is the 700R4 has a Chevy bolt pattern......requires an adaptor.

Aceshigh

Just got off the phone with Dan @ Trans Depot
Apparently the other link (Danny's Trannys) is his brothers new shop in the same town.

He stated these do have a
1. hardened drum,
2. hardened stator tube,
3. Dayco converters are used
4. Stock governor, GN upgraded one for $189
5. Primarily uses Buick and Olds cores, can request specifics.
6. Trans Go kits that shift WOT @ 5800 rpm
but he said tweaking the TV cable can lower those.

I asked him to put it in writing since it's not on his website and send me an invoice.
This way if there's any doubts, it's in writing somewhere.

firefrost gold

1600 for a california performance transmission the real art car for 400 plus hp gear vendor will bee 2500 new

Aceshigh

Unreal......

I Just caught him in a lie.
He just told me that the other seller is his brother at a NEW location, same town he's helping him start.
That's why there's 2 different power ratings for the transmissions in the same town of Hudson Florida on Ebay.
He said his brother Chris is under the Ebay name Danny's Trannys and Dan is under Trans Depot.

So I called the # his alleged brother gave me on Ebay AFTER talking to Dan from Trans Depot.
Guess who answers ??? Same guy....Dan.

I ask him why his brother Chris's phone number rings his brother Dan's shop??
He tells me they both work out of the same building.
His brother just has 2 of his own builders in back.

He just told me his brother operated a different location on my last call 5 mins before.
So 2 brothers allegedly building the same transmissions with 100hp different ratings with
the new Ebay name for LESS money for the more powerful one.

Hmmm......anyone else get that vibe??

The Stickman

A pretty good example of why doing your research pays off in the end.

Rickman48

I guess '86 + up is hard to find - 2 places had none!!
Did talk to a rebuilder friend, and he said they'll handle HP, but it's the torque that kills them - cases go away!!
He recommended a 4L80E, as they'll handle the torque of an Olds, indefinatly.
They were behind some pretty torquey diesels and lived!

Aceshigh

Thanks for looking!!!! I'm calling for parts kits as we speak.

That is EXACTLY why all your internet advertisers and shop's don't show Torque spec's.

The input drum of the 700R4 is the weak point of the trans.
The forward drum of the 2004R is one of the weak points of the trans.

Hardened forward drums are required in the 2004R to survive up to 500hp Jakeshoe
stated from Jakes Performance. http://www.jakesperformance.com/200-...uild_Tech.html
He's the most knowledgeable guy on Chevelle, Camaro, Buick forums besides Chris
from CK Performance.

He said the 4L80e has killed the interest in 2004R's across the board.
They don't even offer them anymore. But I emailed him about a parts kit for a 2004R.
He was trying to get me to buy a 2004-R years ago from Chris @ CK before he started his
own business after going to Iraq as a contractor. (ex-Airborne Ranger)

Problem with the 4L80e is it's a monster and the tunnel needs work to get it in there.
PLUS you need a controller which runs $800-$900 for one. He does offer one without,
but it's still in beta mode if you know what I mean. This is temporary, so I don't want
to fork out $2500 for the trans, plus converter, plus controller. 4L80e isn't an option.

Truth be told....for $2200-$2500 you can buy a complete LY6 / 4L80e pull out.

Rickman48

I know - but the LS series doesn't put out the torque an Olds does - how long will it live, in stock form??
And banging-up the floor, under the seat/console shouldn't be a big deal!
We won't tell!!
Now an Allison 6-speed would be perfect!!

And the 'no torque spec' thing is a way to get out of a warrantee - "TRUTH IN NON-ADVERTISING"!

J-(Chicago)

NOW you're making sense. You could run that rig while your crank is getting drilled.

I doubt your trans tunnel will need much reconfiguration for a 4l80e. I'm guessing 1/4-1/2 inch in a spot or 2.

Cheapest option: stick with the Olds/3speed until all your ducks are in a row. Go back to the crappy 2.78 type-o and old driveshaft for the summer
.

Aceshigh

Exactly.
They can tell you whatever they want over the phone.
But if it's not on paper, or the website, or communicated via email, there's no proof.

That's why you'd have to get it all via email, or a detailed invoice.
But they'd rather you call them so there's no record of it.

J,

If I converted my car to accept a Gen IV LY6 engine and 4L80e trans, it would stay in.

4L80e's are not cheap, or light, nor are the parts to get them working with a classic Olds engine.
It's not an option because you need deep pockets to get one in.

Call CK performance or Jake's performance and you'll soon realize the full cost is up there.

HeavyOlds

Does anyone know what is going on with CK Performance Transmission these days? Looks like he only offers one 200-4R build now and a one 12" lockup that are both only good for 500 lb ft.

olds403

If you start to call around you will start to find out that not many 200r4 builders are left. Even years ago when I bought mine from a 87 GN for $850. Yes, $850 used, i sank another $1500 in it because i was poorly informed on what it would take to make this trans work and last behind my motor.

There is no way any trans under $2000 has the right parts in it to make it last. I have three 200r4's and buying parts out of another as good parts are getting scarce. This is why likely Chris may be no longer building or listing the lower cost units as much of the same hard to get parts are getting harder to get. Direct drums hardly exist anymore AND no mater the power level any unit a builder builds uses up the scare direct drum.

The drum on a 200r4 is like a brake rotor as a band rides it. So its getting worn out each time the trans shifts into second gear. The other hard part to get is the pump washers which makes setting the clearances a real pain as they you have to send parts to machine shops to get clearances you need or you end up sanding pump washers.

If you pay any attention to the hard parts they disappear the second they are on ebay especially certain valve bodies and certain front pumps.

If you are set on the 200r4 go see Dave at turbobuick performance or lonnie at extreme automatics. Be prepared to lay out $2500 for a well build 200r4. This is way the 200r4 is falling out of favor.

Years ago I went to a major core supplier just outside of dallas,tx looking for cores. Buying three cores and time/effort to build only salvage one trans is why most builders no longer do them. I spoke with Jake at JAKES PERFORMANCE years ago he he quit doing them for the same reason.

Then i resulted to Craigslist. Last 200r4 i went after came from a 86 GN. I had to have it so I thought....tore it down. Every hard part was trashed and the planets were junk. Could not even use the front pump it was so scored.. I only salvaged the case, input/output shafts and the valve body that I HAD TO HAVE. Most expensive valve body ever....$400 junk trans. Not like I tear into it at the sellers house.

At the bare minium it takes about $1200 in parts with the billet drum. That is parts. Not the core or labor.
$349 the drum - must.
$150 the servo - must Ck or super servo. May find cheaper
$150 for shift kit -must CK kit
$250 for trans pan. Can use stock pan with lower hp. 700r4 filter
Plus, 10 vane pump rotor, frictions, steels, and seals. I usually get my kits from CK which are $450. Billet pump rotor is $179 alone.

Each one of these takes a lot of time. Usually start to finish I have 12 hours in each one. Valve body cleaning and rebuilding is very tedious.

Figure a builders time and having to warranty each unit is why these are dying. Unless you have a good stash of drums and pumps this is a dead trans now.

The best advice i can give is build your own. Just get a core or two. You will do a better job than most. Ck kit, ck servo, billet drum, ck book, and ebay video...you can do a better job than some ebay no name.

I have hundreds of pictures and learned much on my own.

Hope that helps....

joe_padavano

Sadly, the last 200-4R left the factory over a quarter century ago. As noted above, demand is dropping as the cars they are used in drop in number also. The vast majority of the built 200-4Rs were being built for the Turbo Buick crowd, and those cars are dropping in number now too.

Sucks to get old...

HeavyOlds

Thanks for the advice. I know someone who has a 200-4R they want to sell for $200. I may go that route and build it myself or look into a 4L80E. I have a TH400 in there now so I'm not sure if swapping to a 4L80E would be a big deal to try and fit into the tunnel. I'm not fond of adapter plates either.

coppercutlass

i would much rather build a th400 and add a gear vendors over drive unit. Might cost a bit more but its a proven dead reliable combo.

HeavyOlds

There's a few things I don't like about the GV. Changing oil every 3k, added length, if you are at the end of the track in OD and you lose power to the OD solenoid it will kick out of OD and your RPMs will be over your redline if you are going fast enough. I do like the idea of having a lockup high stall TC. If you are in OD with a 4000 stall TC it will slip a lot.

coppercutlass

there is a guy on real olds power and he thinks diffrently 10 sec car i think and he saw no change in e/t so far on his first trip. I dont think you have to split the gears while racing. there is alot of high HP cars running these with no issues. Its a proven unit very durable with its quirks but i think as driver we tend to figure them out

coppercutlass

heavy olds check this out. http://realoldspower.prophpbb.com/topic13806.html

HeavyOlds

They are a tough unit. Someone sold one in our local paper here a few years ago for $1000. Just missed it. I would have liked to try it out.

HeavyOlds

I think that GV needs rebuilding often though.

coppercutlass

I plan on eventually using one when the funds allow. Currently driving around with 3.90's but i want and really need 4.33 gears to really take advantage of my combo I but need od. to keep the rpms down on the street.

HeavyOlds

I moved my rev limit up to 6200 and still hitting it at the end of the track which is another reason I want an OD.

HeavyOlds

I feel your pain. My 4.10s are killing me on the street. Drove out to the track and made 9 runs. Cost me 8 gallons of gas. It just feels bad to be cruising along at 4K as well.

coppercutlass

I have a 60 mile drive to the track and back. im luck to see 9 mpg. I dont mind the high rpms while driving. just trying to maintain them where they are at .

HeavyOlds

People are always talking about engine wear when running these gear ratios on the highway but there's really not a lot of load on the rings is there?

HeavyOlds

Man those GV OD are expensive. Cheaper to buy a rebuilt 4L80E.

88 Cutty Classic

EXTREME AUTOMATICS
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i think you are still in the range of their stage 1 200 4r .. i believe its $1800.

HeavyOlds

I checked that out. They have some billet parts, their own super pump and their own valve body. Looks good.

Firewalker

Don't forget the 700R4 as well, as a possibility.

olds 307 and 403

I wouldn't build one behind any big torque numbers. I have run both behind Olds 350's, the only reason to use a 700R4 or it's derivatives are on 4wd applications. The 1-2 drop sucks and they need a lot of improvements to last any amount of time behind power plus drive shaft mods and the big 1-2 drop.

Firewalker

I sure didn't like them in the 305 Camaros, when they came out with that big drop off after first, and the droopy power in them just died off. The early ones, just like the early 200r4s were weak and got improved parts over the years.

Failure mode for them can be scary as well, but it seems that is more related to very high rpm failures where Olds don't normally go.

DW has been running one in his high 11 second 455 (3.42 rear) for years now he built himself, if I remember right. I am just guessing, but my guess is they work until 5-6000 rpms fine, if built right. The larger rpm drop should be hardly noticed in a normal street 455 as far as power.

I have a built 200r4 from a few years ago, but I knew it was more a drop in, for my short tailed 400 as far as mount location and drive shaft other than a new yoke than the 700r4 would be. I am a fan of its quietness, and soft fast shifts at part throttle, as compared to my old 400 it replaced.

HeavyOlds

I agree and the 700s don't come with a BOP bolt pattern either. The TH400 has perfect 2.5/1.5/1 ratios. Extreme Automatics has the option to get the same ratios for the 200-4R. What I like about the 200-4R is the ability to build it strong, BOP pattern, light, small. They rate their Stage 3 for 1000HP and 850TQ. CPT has a 1000HP 200-4R but it doesn't look like he has the billet parts in it. I was looking at CK for a long time but their web site has nothing on it now since they re did it. I've seen good reviews from EA.

HeavyOlds

I hear you. I certainly don't need that 3:1 1st gear with my 455. I have problem hooking up if anything. I've already mangled a drive shaft.

joe_padavano

You really can't look just at the trans or just at the rear end or just at the tire diameter. To maximize performance, you need to figure out the effective ratio in each gear from the flywheel to the pavement. Yeah, I realize that most people don't swap trans, rear, and tires all at once, but this is the right way to maximize performance.