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Hello all! I hope everyone's Thanksgiving was good.
Question...these are some pics of my transmission oil cooler, and I was wondering if it's original or afermarket. There are no lines coming from the radiator, so I'm guessing the cooling comes from the air blowing across the fins.
That is aftermarket. The optional factory trans cooler (RPO M55) was shaped differently, mounts differently, and only uses steel lines with inverted flare nuts - no rubber hose. Also, the factory installation used the original in-radiator cooler in series with the aux cooler. Yours apparently does not.
That is aftermarket. The optional factory trans cooler (RPO M55) was shaped differently, mounts differently, and only uses steel lines with inverted flare nuts - no rubber hose. Also, the factory installation used the original in-radiator cooler in series with the aux cooler. Yours apparently does not.
Not really "in depth", unfortunately. The intro to the AT section in the CSM does have an illustration of the trans cooler lines, and shows how the hard lines connect and route through the core support to the aux cooler, but that's about it. The PIM (assembly manual) should have a drawing showing the actual installation.
Not really "in depth", unfortunately. The intro to the AT section in the CSM does have an illustration of the trans cooler lines, and shows how the hard lines connect and route through the core support to the aux cooler, but that's about it. The PIM (assembly manual) should have a drawing showing the actual installation.
Gotcha...is the assembly manual the same thing as the body service manual? If not, is there some where on line I can get the drawings? Also, do you have a pic of what the original looks like, and how do I even know of my Cutlass had one? I don't have a build sheet, so any help would be appreciated.
Gotcha...is the assembly manual the same thing as the body service manual? If not, is there some where on line I can get the drawings? Also, do you have a pic of what the original looks like, and how do I even know of my Cutlass had one? I don't have a build sheet, so any help would be appreciated.
The PIM is a collection of the factory engineering drawings used to build the car on the assembly line. You can buy reprints of the document. Here are selected shots. The actual cooler mounting varied from year to year. Inline Tube sells repros. The fact that your car has an aftermarket cooler pretty much guarantees that it did not come with one from the factory. They were not a common option to order.
Thanks Joe. So if it's safe to assume my Cutlass didn't come with one, and I'm pretty sure the rubber hoses are the source of my leak (here's my thread on that) https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...-haystack.html then I should be able to ditch the cooler and plug the ports on the tranny and call it a day, right?
then I should be able to ditch the cooler and plug the ports on the tranny and call it a day, right?
Nooooo.
You must have a trans cooler. The factory cooler is in the passenger side radiator tank. At a minimum you need that hooked up. The factory used metal lines. You can get pre-bent repros of the metal lines from the usual tubing vendors.
You must have a trans cooler. The factory cooler is in the passenger side radiator tank. At a minimum you need that hooked up. The factory used metal lines. You can get pre-bent repros of the metal lines from the usual tubing vendors.
Oh boy...now I'm really confused. So we're pretty sure the car didn't have one from the factory, but I need to at least run lines from the radiator...
sooo...is the factory cooler inside the tank segregated from the tank?
Oh boy...now I'm really confused. So we're pretty sure the car didn't have one from the factory, but I need to at least run lines from the radiator...
sooo...is the factory cooler inside the tank segregated from the tank?
Every car with an automatic used the trans cooler in the radiator tank. The RPO M55 aux cooler was for additional cooling for trailer towing or racing. Yes, the cooler in the radiator tank is segregated from coolant.
Every car with an automatic used the trans cooler in the radiator tank. The RPO M55 aux cooler was for additional cooling for trailer towing or racing. Yes, the cooler in the radiator tank is segregated from coolant.
Hmmm...I'll have to check and see if the factory one is still functional...stay tuned for an update and thanks again Joe!
Hey Joe I can hook up the factory cooler, but I have a question. Will the factory lines work with headers?
Unfortunately, every header manufacturer routes tubes differently. Every set of headers I've ever installed required some tweaking to the trans cooler lines.
Never, ever plug the cooler fittings on the transmission. At the minimum, they need to be looped. Fluid comes out of the converter, goes out the “out” port of the trans, to the cooler, leaves the cooler, and either returns to the trans, or goes to a auxiliary cooler, then returns to the trans where it is used to supply lube oil to the bushing, thrust washers, planetary headsets, etc. if you plug the fittings, no lube to those parts. The life of your transmission won’t be measured in miles, but minutes.
Unless your car was originally a manual trans, or someone replaced the radiator with a manual trans part, it should have a radiator cooler. If the in-radiator cooler develops a internal leak, you can cap to radiator fittings and install a auxiliary cooler. If that’s the case, use the biggest cooler you can fit. The coolant in the radiator absorbs a lot of heat from the trans.
Hmm...so either the factory cooler developed a leak at some point , or when a previous owner installed the headers, the factory lines wouldn't work. I don't wanna spend the money for new lines only to have them not work, and the aftermarket cooler hasn't given me any issues (even in SE VA 90 plus degree heat). Seems my best bet is to leave well enough alone.
But why? The original would provide better cooling than the aftermarket....
No, it doesn't. The original is sized for normal use. If the car is used for HD applications (towing, racing) you want an aux cooler. If the engine is modified, causing the radiator to run hotter than normal, you want an aux cooler. If the trans is modified with a shift kit, you want an aux cooler.
But why? The original would provide better cooling than the aftermarket....it doesn't make sense to me.
Think about where the factory transmission cooler IS. INSIDE the radiator. If the part inside the radiator ever developed a leak, transmission fluid could get into the radiator or coolant could get into the transmission. Neither is good scenario. It doesn't happen often, but there are some people who sleep better at night knowing that there is no way these fluids could ever mix.
My 1978 Toronado has an external transmission cooler. I talked with the seller about why it was there and that I was thinking of removing it, and he gave me a long story about why he installs an external cooler on all his cars and trucks and that I should consider leaving it in place. I ended up leaving it in place.
Here's what he said:
As you might know the transmission is cooled by tubes in the radiator. This radiator is the same unit that cools the engine. I will never understand why all vehicles don't use external coolers so the transmission fluid and radiator fluid/coolant can NEVER mix. I had a 66/67 Toronado back in the late 70's that had the radiator clog. I sent it to a radiator shop to have it cleaned and boiled. I put it back in the car and within a few weeks I noticed all the water hoses were turning oily, shiny, greasy and just not right. It turned out that when the radiator shop cleaned the tubes they inadvertently penetrated the trans cooling tubes and the prestone went in to the transmission which ruined the transmission.
In recent times, about two years ago I bought a 2005 Nissan Xterra. I noticed a transmission problem within a few weeks of my purchasing it. I'm sure the previous owner knew about this when he sold it. Well, I went to my friend who owns a transmission shop and he told me that Nissan has had a radiator problem for years. It lasts about a 100k miles and then it breaks down inside. I went on line and there are hundreds of stories of upset people that have had this problem. I immediately installed an external cooler and flushed the transmission several times and ultimately saved the transmission. I have heard many stories that are absolutely heart wrenching.
One of the guys that I deal with at NAPA had just gone thru this same issue with an Xterra he had just bought from a used car dealer. It was a 2007 and he had only owned it for a few weeks when it wouldn't start. It was all because of the radiator. A $200.00 radiator and it ended up costing him over $6000.00. He had to take out a loan to fix his new/used car he bought for his wife. I will NEVER buy another Nissan product ever! Nissan should replace every radiator in every car that's still on the road. They are all defective and they have cheated a lot of customers. When you get some time, look on line and see what I'm talking about. It's really sad. All they need(ed) to do is either replace the radiators or ad an external trans cooler. This should be a recall enforced by the government. Anyway, I think you're doing the right thing by just leaving the one on the '78. I don't believe the car had a radiator problem. I'm sure my dad just added it to protect the engine/trans when he intended to use the car to tow a boat every now and then. I was told by my transmission friend during my Xterra debacle that every vehicle should have an external cooler.
But do keep in that there are about a bazillion cars and trucks out there that do not have an external transmission cooler, and we do not have an epidemic of coolant getting into transmissions. You could probably restore the factory configuration and never have a problem. My thought, though, is that, if the cooler on your car is working OK, leave it. No need to fix what ain't broken. Apparently a prior owner of your car felt the same way as the prior owner of my car does.
As you might know the transmission is cooled by tubes in the radiator. This radiator is the same unit that cools the engine. I will never understand why all vehicles don't use external coolers so the transmission fluid and radiator fluid/coolant can NEVER mix.
Trans fluid that's too cold will do as much damage as trans fluid that's too hot. Keep in mind that automakers design and test cars to operate over their normal lifetime in locations that range from Death Valley to the North Slope. When a purported "expert" says something like that, he's proven he's not an expert.
Once again, the Olds engineers are a lot smarter than 99.9 percent of us car guys. They have to design the car to work in every environment, under every intended use, and with enough safety margin for a normal amount of abuse and flat out neglect. Transmission fluid will function at a higher temperature than engine coolant ever will. The coolant absorbs the heat from the transmission. There is a lot more antifreeze moving around inside the radiator than trans fluid. When it’s 20 below zero, that same coolant will warm the trans fluid, allowing the trans to operate as intended.
When the plastic radiators become common, there were a lot of learning/engineering to figure out how to make them work and last. The same thing happened with condensers and evaporator coils, when the government outlawed lead to solder the joints together, it took awhile to figure out a new way of doing things.
Im a huge fan of old iron, but technology has come along way. When was the last time you saw a modern car sitting along the highway overheated? Improvements in radiator efficiency. For the most part, transmission contamination with engine coolant is a thing of the past. If it ain’t broke,don’t fix it
No, it doesn't. The original is sized for normal use. If the car is used for HD applications (towing, racing) you want an aux cooler. If the engine is modified, causing the radiator to run hotter than normal, you want an aux cooler. If the trans is modified with a shift kit, you want an aux cooler.
Ok Joe, so what do you recommend? As I said, the cooler I have now hasn't given me any problems, and you can see by the pics I posted that it isn't that big. So do I leave well enough alone, do I go back to the factory setup, or do I not go back to factory and switch to a better after market unit? Mine is currently mounted underneath and behind the front bumper, so it baffles me how efficient it is considering the only cooling medium is air blowing across the coils. I'm thinking a bigger aftermarket unit mounted on the radiator would be more efficient, but am I overthinking this? I don't want to create unnecessary work, but I want to make the right decision.
and i I bet every one of them suffered from severe neglect. You know, radiator clogged with bugs, dirt, fast food wrappers, etc. Or oil soaked hoses softer than melted butter? Jugs filled with water because the water pump/radiator/whatever leaks. You know the cars I’m talking about.
Modern cars are properly maintained just don’t overheat like old iron does. And it’s all due to improved radiator efficiency
Ok Joe, so what do you recommend? As I said, the cooler I have now hasn't given me any problems, and you can see by the pics I posted that it isn't that big. So do I leave well enough alone, do I go back to the factory setup, or do I not go back to factory and switch to a better after market unit? Mine is currently mounted underneath and behind the front bumper, so it baffles me how efficient it is considering the only cooling medium is air blowing across the coils. I'm thinking a bigger aftermarket unit mounted on the radiator would be more efficient, but am I overthinking this? I don't want to create unnecessary work, but I want to make the right decision.
Thanks,
Dave
The only way to know for sure if the cooler is sufficient is to measure trans fluid temp. That means either adding a gauge, or use a infared heat gun to measure the pan temp. On a hot day, drive the car hard, lots of stop and go, a few hard acceleration runs, and measure the temp in the pan. If it’s warmer than about 220-230, I’d upgrade to a bigger cooler. Ideal temp is around 180ish.
The only way to know for sure if the cooler is sufficient is to measure trans fluid temp. That means either adding a gauge, or use a infared heat gun to measure the pan temp. On a hot day, drive the car hard, lots of stop and go, a few hard acceleration runs, and measure the temp in the pan. If it’s warmer than about 220-230, I’d upgrade to a bigger cooler. Ideal temp is around 180ish.
So until it gets warmer it's not an issue..good to know😀
November 24th, 2018, 06:51 AM
