200-4r questions
February 3rd, 2018, 06:50 AM
#41
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 158
2004r
You might consider going back and picking up that cadillac unit if it is an AA code. I was advised that these worked well and I agree it is working well in my car after my DIY overhaul. Like mr olds403 I pretty much pieced mine together and bought parts as I could afford them. I will suggest the billet shaft forward drum to prevent the park and six neutrals and a tow bill. But i put a stocker in mine due to budgetary constraints. The billet input requires work as noted above and you need the billet planetary or that shaft causes the planetary to develop cracks. I did some budget spring swapping in the vb and drilled some holes on the vb plate out a little bigger. Keep us posted on your progress .
k
Thanks guys, on the way to pick up a 1990 200-r4 from a Buick Electra in the morning. The alternative was a 1990 from a Cadillac Brougham. Both under $200.
Anyone wanna share the CK manual?
Should be assembling the motor within 2 weeks, so need to make some quick decisions and get the complete set of trans parts on the way.
Anyone wanna share the CK manual?
Should be assembling the motor within 2 weeks, so need to make some quick decisions and get the complete set of trans parts on the way.
February 3rd, 2018, 07:55 AM
#42
Jet lagged & Hungry
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Florida's Space Coast
Posts: 129
I'm not posiitive about the tire size, she is tucked away in a friends garage until the engine/trans are done.
I used an online calculator and ran it after checking the tires size.
The calculator I used had me at 1500 at 63, 1750 at 73 and 2000 at 84.
I cruise at 77 so 1900 rpm seemed pretty sweet.
I got the street and strip CK kit, it's in there!
I used an online calculator and ran it after checking the tires size.
The calculator I used had me at 1500 at 63, 1750 at 73 and 2000 at 84.
I cruise at 77 so 1900 rpm seemed pretty sweet.
I got the street and strip CK kit, it's in there!
February 3rd, 2018, 04:45 PM
#43
Out of Line, Everytime😉
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Melville, Saskatchewan
Posts: 8,919
I'm not posiitive about the tire size, she is tucked away in a friends garage until the engine/trans are done.
I used an online calculator and ran it after checking the tires size.
The calculator I used had me at 1500 at 63, 1750 at 73 and 2000 at 84.
I cruise at 77 so 1900 rpm seemed pretty sweet.
I got the street and strip CK kit, it's in there!
I used an online calculator and ran it after checking the tires size.
The calculator I used had me at 1500 at 63, 1750 at 73 and 2000 at 84.
I cruise at 77 so 1900 rpm seemed pretty sweet.
I got the street and strip CK kit, it's in there!
February 12th, 2018, 05:28 PM
#45
ph_ckstick1
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 450
Its been my observation that _every_ overdrive transmission is "not cheap". Suggest shop "new with warranty" prices from major transmission vendors to know what you're signing up for...its unlikely you'll beat them on dollars with a core and parts+rebuild.
The 700-R4 has a steep first gear and requires an adapter for non-Chevy bellhousing. Weakest listed here (?).
The 200-4R can be built to the moon with lots of aftermarket support from the GN crowd.
The 4L80E is a billy bad *** TH-400 that's very large physically and even MORE expensive. Also requires a bellhousing adapter.
All require the addition of a computer. Once you start looking at the $$ numbers a Gear Vendors behind the transmission you have starts to look better and better.
The 700-R4 has a steep first gear and requires an adapter for non-Chevy bellhousing. Weakest listed here (?).
The 200-4R can be built to the moon with lots of aftermarket support from the GN crowd.
The 4L80E is a billy bad *** TH-400 that's very large physically and even MORE expensive. Also requires a bellhousing adapter.
All require the addition of a computer. Once you start looking at the $$ numbers a Gear Vendors behind the transmission you have starts to look better and better.
February 12th, 2018, 05:31 PM
#46
ph_ckstick1
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 450
Other than the factory calibration, there is no difference between a “performance” trans out of a Monte Carlo, 442, or Grand National and the internals from either of your donor cars. Use whichever one has the cleaner pan and better looking fluid. Install the performance upgrades, look over the stator support tube, and have fun
February 12th, 2018, 07:04 PM
#48
ph_ckstick1
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 450
Not to highjack this thread but anyone have a listing of the speedo drive and driven gears and what app it/they where used in..
rear gears and tire size..
Years ago I found one for the th400, but have not found one for the 2004r.. yet.
I know for s 3.42 rear gear and 26" tire you'd just use a gn one.. or one from an SS with 3.73 and 26" tire.. but the wagons and big caddys I'd think had lower gears 3.23 or lower and taller tires..
rear gears and tire size..
Years ago I found one for the th400, but have not found one for the 2004r.. yet.
I know for s 3.42 rear gear and 26" tire you'd just use a gn one.. or one from an SS with 3.73 and 26" tire.. but the wagons and big caddys I'd think had lower gears 3.23 or lower and taller tires..
February 13th, 2018, 08:50 PM
#51
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 719
February 13th, 2018, 09:13 PM
#52
ph_ckstick1
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 450
February 16th, 2018, 08:35 PM
#54
Jet lagged & Hungry
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Florida's Space Coast
Posts: 129
So I just opened up the box with the Hughes deep pan and man is this thing huge!
Am I going to have ground clearance problems with this?
Can anyone tell me how far below the frame this hangs?
Am I going to have ground clearance problems with this?
Can anyone tell me how far below the frame this hangs?
February 17th, 2018, 03:15 AM
#55
Rodney
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,321
That Hughes pan will hang down about 1-1/2" lower than the stock steel pan. This is why I chose the PML low-profile pan, because it only hangs down 1/2" lower than stock. It's also recommended when using the low profile pan to over fill the transmission by half a quart to keep the filter pickup covered during cornering and hard take-offs. The PML pan also has a small baffle at the rear to reduce slosh.
February 17th, 2018, 02:38 PM
#56
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 158
As stated by matt69olds the calibration is what is different. The vb and governor. The other stuff is the same. Clutches, planetaries, and other hard parts. The only other thing I can think of is the larger servo(692 and 694) in the mcss, 442s, and brf of the turbo Regals.
Last edited by TexasT; February 17th, 2018 at 03:05 PM.
February 17th, 2018, 02:47 PM
#57
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 719
Can I get a breakdown on what is different between the "base cars" and the Performance 2004rs?
As stated by matt69olds the calibration is what is different. The vb and governor. The other stuff is the same. Clutches, planetaries, and other hard parts. The only other thing I can think of is the larger servo(692 and 694) in the mcss, 44s, and brf of the turbo Regals.
As stated by matt69olds the calibration is what is different. The vb and governor. The other stuff is the same. Clutches, planetaries, and other hard parts. The only other thing I can think of is the larger servo(692 and 694) in the mcss, 44s, and brf of the turbo Regals.
February 17th, 2018, 02:59 PM
#58
Out of Line, Everytime😉
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Melville, Saskatchewan
Posts: 8,919
I had that pan on my 70S, I believe it is about even with the the cross member. I also had it on my marshmallow 88 Cutlass, no issues for ground clearance and the pan, the whole car was lower and exhaust would scrape but the pan was fine. Hopefully you don't have the seepage issues I had on multiple 2004R's with my pan.
February 17th, 2018, 03:11 PM
#60
Out of Line, Everytime😉
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Melville, Saskatchewan
Posts: 8,919
What driven gear have you been finding in most 2004R's? I have found mostly the black 27 tooth driven gear, although the last one was a brown 26 tooth gear. With a green 10 tooth, the black 27 tooth, it is perfect for a factory height 25.6" tire on a G body and 3.42 gears. I calculated the common 225/70R14 used on our A bodies, my current 26 tooth brown gear and 10 tooth green gear will be perfect with that tire size and 3.42 gears.
February 17th, 2018, 03:17 PM
#62
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 158
If you do a billet input, do like olds403 and get the billet planetary to go with as the shaft makes the planetary crack.
Hard stator support and hard sun shell came on the scene around 1986(all units) but shoot, these are old these days and for about $40 it is cheap to go with new ones. another upgrade the newer units got was the bearing in the forward planet. The older one was a bushing.
The forward drum has a tendency to twist the end of the shaft off. A billet shaft unit is the way to go there if it is in the budget. Especially if you dual feed the direct clutches.
Get a good quality unit as this one obviously had a poor weld.
Hard stator support and hard sun shell came on the scene around 1986(all units) but shoot, these are old these days and for about $40 it is cheap to go with new ones. another upgrade the newer units got was the bearing in the forward planet. The older one was a bushing.
The forward drum has a tendency to twist the end of the shaft off. A billet shaft unit is the way to go there if it is in the budget. Especially if you dual feed the direct clutches.
Get a good quality unit as this one obviously had a poor weld.
February 17th, 2018, 03:27 PM
#63
Jet lagged & Hungry
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Florida's Space Coast
Posts: 129
I had that pan on my 70S, I believe it is about even with the the cross member. I also had it on my marshmallow 88 Cutlass, no issues for ground clearance and the pan, the whole car was lower and exhaust would scrape but the pan was fine. Hopefully you don't have the seepage issues I had on multiple 2004R's with my pan.
February 17th, 2018, 03:31 PM
#64
Out of Line, Everytime😉
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Melville, Saskatchewan
Posts: 8,919
The stator shaft would explain why my 88 trans was fine, although only one was failing on 4 different 2004R's and that was a recent rebuild. I know Dr Dan and CK also suggest a sunshell upgrade even in a stock rebuild
February 17th, 2018, 04:56 PM
#65
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: central Indiana
Posts: 5,245
I seem to recall reading somewhere around 86-87 Hydromatic started heat treating the sun shell. The sun shell will be a darker color than some of the other parts inside. I doubt the stator support tubes were ever heat treated from the factory, they are soft as butter. I have seen them with the spline gone in trans behind the mighty 260 Olds. Even more behind the powerhouse 307.
February 17th, 2018, 05:29 PM
#66
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 421
If you do a billet input, do like olds403 and get the billet planetary to go with as the shaft makes the planetary crack.
Hard stator support and hard sun shell came on the scene around 1986(all units) but shoot, these are old these days and for about $40 it is cheap to go with new ones. another upgrade the newer units got was the bearing in the forward planet. The older one was a bushing.
The forward drum has a tendency to twist the end of the shaft off. A billet shaft unit is the way to go there if it is in the budget. Especially if you dual feed the direct clutches.
Get a good quality unit as this one obviously had a poor weld.
Hard stator support and hard sun shell came on the scene around 1986(all units) but shoot, these are old these days and for about $40 it is cheap to go with new ones. another upgrade the newer units got was the bearing in the forward planet. The older one was a bushing.
The forward drum has a tendency to twist the end of the shaft off. A billet shaft unit is the way to go there if it is in the budget. Especially if you dual feed the direct clutches.
Get a good quality unit as this one obviously had a poor weld.
We learn! (We hope!)
February 17th, 2018, 06:13 PM
#67
Registered User
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 195
That plastic washer has one place - the trash can. The later units have the bearing. I have a very early 200R4 that I picked up and its not even a multicase. I picked it up a few weeks ago and it was a never rebuilt. It had water in it so the VB is in the scrap pile now.
February 17th, 2018, 06:16 PM
#68
Registered User
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 195
Keep in mind that only CK parts fit his input drums. I learned that the hard way as I have an Art Carr input drum and a Scott Mc Clay drum. I know for a fact the Mc Clay drum interchanges perfectly with all stock otherwise parts. CK does not.
February 17th, 2018, 06:23 PM
#69
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 421
That plastic washer has one place - the trash can. The later units have the bearing. I have a very early 200R4 that I picked up and its not even a multicase. I picked it up a few weeks ago and it was a never rebuilt. It had water in it so the VB is in the scrap pile now.
February 18th, 2018, 06:24 AM
#70
Out of Line, Everytime😉
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Melville, Saskatchewan
Posts: 8,919
I seem to recall reading somewhere around 86-87 Hydromatic started heat treating the sun shell. The sun shell will be a darker color than some of the other parts inside. I doubt the stator support tubes were ever heat treated from the factory, they are soft as butter. I have seen them with the spline gone in trans behind the mighty 260 Olds. Even more behind the powerhouse 307.
February 18th, 2018, 06:29 AM
#71
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 421
Yes, the stator support shaft. I have seen them worn to tiny points, on the verge of failure. GM was always a little guilty of releasing things before they really had been tested for durability. The only exception as far as a lot of hard parts went was for the Toronado. But even in those a few minor things showed up. Regardless, the front end of those cars went on to being used in motorhomes as we know.
February 18th, 2018, 06:58 AM
#72
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 421
Do you mean column shifter? You don't need to do anything with the column shifter, unless you are manually shifting low gear. Drive is Overdrive and Drive is 2 and 1 is Second on the column indicator. I think I could grab low but I had my shift points right at 5000 RPM where I wanted them so I never manually grabbed gears with the column shifter. Take off the shifter rod attachment off your TH350 and attach it using the proper metric nut on your 2004R.
Lengthening the shift lever under hood rod side
February 18th, 2018, 07:03 AM
#73
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Burlington, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 421
Mike, these may help you too. I used to post a lot to Youtube, may start to again in the future, but these movies you can find by following more on my page may help you out with the 200-4R project! This is just one in a whole series of these things. There is a ton of stuff on the rebuild. The experience was very fun and a learning process! Regards, Howie.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=liiVSjoCWJA
www.youtube.com/watch?v=liiVSjoCWJA
February 18th, 2018, 07:43 AM
#74
Out of Line, Everytime😉
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Melville, Saskatchewan
Posts: 8,919
Use this to calculate the speedo gears.
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&sourc...UyDzX52a3jnvx_
I usually leave the driven gear in the trans since getting the speedometer bullet out can be a PIA. But since you are doing a full rebuild, go with the most economical available gears with your tire height and gearing. When it is out is the time for new O rings on the speedometer bullet, not fighting under the car. If you have the common 27 tooth driven gear, I have a red 12 tooth gear, I can send you for free, it won't work with my current combo or future gear swaps. I also have a beige drive gear, not listed will have to count the teeth.
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&sourc...UyDzX52a3jnvx_
I usually leave the driven gear in the trans since getting the speedometer bullet out can be a PIA. But since you are doing a full rebuild, go with the most economical available gears with your tire height and gearing. When it is out is the time for new O rings on the speedometer bullet, not fighting under the car. If you have the common 27 tooth driven gear, I have a red 12 tooth gear, I can send you for free, it won't work with my current combo or future gear swaps. I also have a beige drive gear, not listed will have to count the teeth.
Last edited by olds 307 and 403; February 18th, 2018 at 08:01 AM.
March 26th, 2018, 08:30 AM
#79
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: central Indiana
Posts: 5,245
around 1984 they started to heat treat the sun shell. About the same time they eliminated a thrust washer in the low/reverse carrier and replaced it with a bearing. I’m sure there were other small continuous improvements and upgrades made, these are the only ones that I can recall from memory. These changes were made across the entire 2004r transmission line. Read a parts manual, read CK book, other than the valve body, servo, and governor, there is no difference between a high dollar BRF trans core and one from a station wagon.
March 26th, 2018, 10:35 AM
#80
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 719
I don't bother with them and haven't for 50 years. I consider them just cosmetic. I also like to see whats going on under there when I look. Never had a problem from not having one, and neither has anyone else I know of.
