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Hey Folks! Happy Thanksgiving!
I am considering taking my TH350 out of my '72 Supreme and replacing it with a 200-4R. Shiftworks makes a neat kit for the Dual Gate.
Question: I see many companies out there with a Stage 2 trans and conversion kit. Does anyone have a good experience with a particular company?
Get a core...get the ck performance book, get the rebuild dvd off ebay. Build yourself.
I have used CK for most parts and rebuild kits. extreme automatics has a xmas special right now. The good ones cost money.
I have bought four used units over the past 10yrs ans two were supposed to be newly rebuilt. All needed work. Got one last night off Craiglist and so called had a 1st shift issue. On the bench today....found many basic mistakes. I leaned from the books and dvd. Plus a couple of removals to fix my learnings....
A good one is north of $1500-$2000+. You can build it and put in the billet forward drum for under a $1000 w/o converter
Thanks for the advice. I think I will have to purchase one already done. I am looking at Transmission Depot on eBay. They have a Stage 2 Conversion package for about $1,800 with all the parts I need for a conversion.
I would appreciate it if you would look at the specs and give an opinion, as you are obviously more experienced with this than I am.
I have put these in 70’s Trans Am’s. Seriously you can build your own. If you can do a brake job you can rebuild a 200r4. Watch the DVD. As for the above, not bad, but no billet drum and saw them in the seller store for $599. Ouch. Most likey its a Ckperformane drum for $599.
I like CK performance transmissions. I just spent $500 on parts for that Craigslist special today. Before you do anything talk to chris at Ck performance or Michele.
Lock up or no lock up.
Getting them to lock and unlock is something to consider. Less pain and still get 4th gear. Art Carr does his units this way. No lock up.
Lock up I use the Bowler controller and a vacuum switch from summit racing. That is.another $250
Decide this before lock up or no lock before getting a convertor.
Personally I would invest in the CK trans or the one from Extreme Automatics.
These cars are heavy and you want all the best internals (billet parts) you can get.
This is not a trans to go cheap as they were never meant for heavy high HP cars.
Each time we do these swaps we closer to $3000 by the time we build the trans, convertor, shifter mods, crossmember mods, lock up module/vac switch, and the TV at carb/EFI.
They are direct swaps, but its all the little stuff and use one of the two builders.
Occasionally you can find built units for sale on turbobuick.com
Last edited by olds403; November 27th, 2017 at 08:33 PM.
After reviewing your comments and talking to the companies you reccommended, I think I will bo with Hughes. they have a muscle car package that includes billet components and a built in automatic lock up switch that only needs an electrical hook up and no switch or vacuum.
Your advice was extremely helpful. thank you very much!
Muscle Car Trans. Pkg, Designed for Modified Engines, Camshaft and or Compression Change, Numerically Higher Differential Gearing. Call for further details. Incl: 54-1, 21-25L, HP8238 Trans Cooler, Deep Alum Oil Pan, HP8720 Trans Mount, Flex Trans Dipstick, Kick Down Cable and Mount (when required) (2) Cases HP501 Lucas Sure-Shift
I have a friend with that Shiftworks dual gate conversion kit in his 72 Cutlass. Frankly, I'm less than impressed. The kit changes the lever arm ratio on the shifter so that for OD the stick ends up in the Neutral position, and P, R, and N are squeezed to fit in between what used to be P and R. Frankly I did not find the feel of the modified shifter to be very good.
Not sure what Hughes sells and very few builders left for the 200r4 as cores are short in supply and have been for years.
Many of the ones I had bought recently majority goes as scrap and get a few parts and the case. The latest core I pulled apart last night the direct drum was not round and was a recent rebuild.
Not sure what Hughes sells and very few builders left for the 200r4 as cores are short in supply and have been for years.
Many of the ones I had bought recently majority goes as scrap and get a few parts and the case. The latest core I pulled apart last night the direct drum was not round and was a recent rebuild.
Might want to call hughes as not seeing this
Glad I got my from CK when I did, I checked their site recently and they no longer advertise a built 200-4R.
Not sure why you wouldn't want to take advantage of the lock-up TC. The one I got from CK has a switch that keeps it unlocked until it shifts into 4th. Combine that with a simple brake activated relay to unlock it when you step on the brake and it works like a champ. No fancy vacuum switch required. You can always add an override switch to unlock it in 4th if you wanted to, but I can't think of a reason why unless you were racing.
Rickglick - Even though trans has electrical connection for lockup there still needs to be a switch or control to activate & cancel. I use setup like olds403 mentions & it is as close to an OE control system as one will get without an ecm involved. I leave mine deactivated unless I will be steady 55+ mph. When activated it will engage only if in OD (appx 8 seconds after shift into OD), only if ported vacuum stays above a certain adjustable, preset level and brake is not applied. If you go into throttle enough to drop vac below threshold the converter unlocks & then relocks 8 secs after letting up. If trans downshifts, converter unlocks & again will lockup 8 secs after shift back into OD. If throttle is closed converter unlocks, if brake is applied converter unlocks. This control setup is really pretty simple. If you were to use this setup (Bowler Delay Unit) trans needs "standard" 700-4R 4 prong plug (NOT 200-4R) on side of trans.
The most basic, simplest method of activation is with a switch but then YOU have to be the control system. There are numerous people that do it this way, just have to pay more attention to the situation. You need some sort of switch or else depending on the internal switches in trans you would hit OD & lockup simultaneously.
Last edited by bccan; July 19th, 2020 at 04:15 PM.
Extreme Automatics built a 200-4r for me earlier this year, Stage 2. I'm very pleased. Granted, I just sent the governor back for adjustment, but it's been solid.
I'm using the shiftworks dual gate kit and I'm happy. I think it's a decent compromise. The main thing is the right side gates still work!!
Lockup can be simple or complicated - however you want to go about it. There's a ton of info out there on how to do it. I'm using a brake switch, ported vacuum, 4th gear and a delay timer. Still hunts in low speed situations, but I just need to adjust the vacuum trigger.
I appreciate all of this great information guys and will continue to research before I make a final decision. I'm still trying to wrap my head around an over $3,000 transmission when I recently rebuilt my TH350! I received bad advice at the time of my rebuild, or I would have done this from the start.
I definitely do want lock-up, I just don't want to have to think about it when I'm driving, so the '8 second delay/brake deactivate' route sound like a good one.
BTW-Hughes is the one that Summit and Jeg's sells and I spoke to the factory. They received rave reviews from the support techs at both companies.
I'll be darned Hughes sells a couple of levels of the 2004R. I have never heard anything bad about Hughes. Although I could never keep their deep 2004R pan sealed. I plan on running their TH350/400 2500 stall converter. Pretty sure my lock up TH250 had their converter, was dead on the 2500 rating.
Guys you have been a great help to me on this transmission project. I am down to tow suppliers: Extreme and Dynotec.
There seems to be a strong opinion from one that I should have lock up and the other says non-lock up. Painless makes a simple kit with vacuum from carb and a brake controlled off switch. I have low vacuum due to my cam and use a vacuum booster for my master cylinder.
Can I get some expert opinions on this?
I know they make a new detent kit for the 68-72 chevelle a body floor shifter, anyone know if that kit or any kit made for the olds shifter in the 73-77 cars?
non dual gate..
Guys you have been a great help to me on this transmission project. I am down to tow suppliers: Extreme and Dynotec.
There seems to be a strong opinion from one that I should have lock up and the other says non-lock up. Painless makes a simple kit with vacuum from carb and a brake controlled off switch. I have low vacuum due to my cam and use a vacuum booster for my master cylinder.
Can I get some expert opinions on this?
Is this a street car that see more cruising that hot ******* around??
If street cruising and will be using overdrive a lot, Kinda the point of installing the transmission, eh. without the lock up converter you will kill the transmission and the o/d gear set clutches in short order.. As the heat it will generate in the fluid is huge.
You can always turn the lock up clutch off with a switch when you don't want it to try to lock up, drag racing, or hard use.. but if you don't have it you can't turn it on..lol
The only problem is the on the shelf converters with lock up seem to be rated 1400to 2400rpm stall,tops. for the most part, so If you want a higher stall you'll have to have the converter custom made.
If you go without a lock up plan on needing a big by huge transmission cooler and maybe a fan on it to keep it cool.. problem here is in cool weather it can cool the fluid to much and shock the transmission parts when it gets back to the transmission. And why many run the lines, trans /external cooler/cooler in radiator/ back to trans. to stop the temp shock.. and FYI THE 2004R TRANS COOLER LINES ARE REVERSED FROM THE TH350/400..i.e. the feed and return are swapped
If the transmission is set up correctly when you are cruising and hammer it the converter should unlock automaticly as you can if you have enough power cause it to slip (drive through it) and that will kill it in short order..
the aftermarket converters (good company brands anyways)lock up clutch is much stronger than the oem one was, but there is a limit.. and big ft lb will pull through them..
If drag car only.. ya go without the lock up.. but for a street car that will use the overdrive gear. I would not forgo it.
One thing to remember is most converter stall rating is behind a 350 chevy with 350hp and 340-350ftlb. an engine with more torque will stall higher and one with less lower.. I.E. a 455 with 500+ ft lb is going to stall higher than that 2400rpm.. try to remember this.. if buying an off the shelf part # converter, if having it made, and you are honest with your set up. it will stall where it is rated within a 100-200rpm. key here is honest. wrong weight/rear gear/tire size/use/engine power and rpm band, power adder (nos/turbo/sc) will make or break if the stall is close or way off..
Last edited by midnightleadfoot; February 8th, 2018 at 09:15 AM.
turning the lock up off is a simple toggle switch.. if you want to manually shut it off.
The lock up harness is simple to make or just buy one..
Can't not stress this enough..MAKE SURE THE TV CABLE IS CORRECTLY SET UP AND THELINKAGE TO THE CARB OR EFI IS CORRECT geometry !! no the th350 kick down linkage on your carb or efi isn't good enough, buy the correct linkage and intake brackets ..
This cable controls line psi. set it up wrong and you'll be pulling the trans because you smoked it..
Last edited by midnightleadfoot; February 8th, 2018 at 09:16 AM.
I have spoken to Chris at CK Performance and am awaiting his quote.
According to Chris, the only time you would not want lock up is on an uphill terrain with a loaded car.He builds the lock up into the 4th gear with just one wire to the horn relay. It unlocks in any lower gear. No vacuum needed. A very neat set up!
I'll keep you posted!
I have spoken to Chris at CK Performance and am awaiting his quote.
According to Chris, the only time you would not want lock up is on an uphill terrain with a loaded car.He builds the lock up into the 4th gear with just one wire to the horn relay. It unlocks in any lower gear. No vacuum needed. A very neat set up! I'll keep you posted!
Actually, the one wire from CK's 200-4R needs to go to +12V through a NC relay contact. Wire the coil of the relay to your brake light circuit and that's it. I re-used my Jetaway's kick-down wire since it was already routed to the trans from under the dash. No lock-up until you are into 4th gear. Press the gas pedal enough to down shift and it unlocks. Tap the brakes to slow-down or stop and it unlocks. It can't get much better or simpler IMO.
Last edited by JohnnyBs68S; February 12th, 2018 at 04:31 PM.
Actually, the one wire from CK's 200-4R needs to go to +12V through a NC relay contact. Wire the coil of the relay to your brake light circuit and that's it. I re-used my Jetaway's kick-down wire since it was already routed to the trans from under the dash. No lock-up until you are into 4th gear. Press the gas pedal enough to down shift and it unlocks. Tap the brakes to slow-down or stop and it unlocks. It can't get much better or simpler IMO.
Thanks, Johnny! helps me as well.
If there is only one wire on the CK kit, do you lose a reverse light contact?
@TexasT i spoke to Jimmy. What a great guy! He will build the trans and install it for much less than I was going to pay.
He does the lock up differently than Chris at CK (who he knows and buys parts from). He uses a pressure switch to activate the lock up instead of always going on everytime the car is in 4th. He feels this is a smoother ride and less strain on the torque converter in traffic when you get into fourth, but not at consistent highway speeds. turns off when out of 4th. He installs a cutoff switch under the dash in cases that you don't want the lock up at all.
Thanks, Johnny! helps me as well.
If there is only one wire on the CK kit, do you lose a reverse light contact?
Reverse light? That is controlled by the shifter (on the column in my car). The single wire coming from my CK-built trans is connected to the wire that used to connect to the kickdown solenoid on my Jetaway. The other end of that wire was disconnected from the kickdown switch on my gas pedal (I took the switch off since it no longer needed). The old kickdown wire was then connected to one side of NC (Normally Closed) contacts of a 12V relay. The other side of the NC contacts goes to +12V through a fuse (10A I believe).
One side of the coil of that relay is connected to ground, the other side is T'd into the wire coming from the brake light switch that goes to the brake lights. Thus, when the brakes come on, the relay contacts open and unlocks the converter. It can only lock-up in 4th due to the switch CK uses inside the trans (now wired in series between the relay NC contacts and the lock-up solenoid) that closes only when the trans is in 4th gear.
Hope that helps.
Last edited by JohnnyBs68S; February 22nd, 2018 at 04:59 PM.
Not having a lock up converter doesnt hurt the trans at all. I have put several thousand miles on my 700r4 in my Chevelle SS. I didn't want the lock up because I have been that route before, the vacuum switch was nothing but a pain. It either hunted up and down constantly or wouldnt lock or unlock, this is with a lumpy cam in my 496. The rpm only dropped 200 when I had the lock up so I didnt think it was worth it. I have driven it several hundred miles at a time with no problem
Its all a matter of opinion and what you want. If you don't want the converter to lock up the trans has to be set up for it, you cant just unplug it.
Not having a lock up converter doesnt hurt the trans at all. I have put several thousand miles on my 700r4 in my Chevelle SS. I didn't want the lock up because I have been that route before, the vacuum switch was nothing but a pain. It either hunted up and down constantly or wouldnt lock or unlock, this is with a lumpy cam in my 496. The rpm only dropped 200 when I had the lock up so I didnt think it was worth it. I have driven it several hundred miles at a time with no problem
Its all a matter of opinion and what you want. If you don't want the converter to lock up the trans has to be set up for it, you cant just unplug it.
It isn't a matter of opinion..
Trans fluid heat kills the fluid and then the transmission.
This is fact and has been since the first automatics.
Converter slip while in o/d heats the fluid big time.
This isn't heysay or an opinion it is fact.
The lock up is as simple as a toggle switch.
It isn't a matter of opinion..
Trans fluid heat kills the fluid and then the transmission.
This is fact and has been since the first automatics.
Converter slip while in o/d heats the fluid big time.
This isn't heysay or an opinion it is fact.
The lock up is as simple as a toggle switch.
I agree that heat kills a transmission, but I have a large B&M stacked plate Super Cooler on my car, trans temps never go over 190 no matter how hot it gets here in the south or what driving conditions.
It has worked for me for several thousand miles. I have been a "long hauler" on The Hot Rod power tour twice, I have driven from TN to Texas, OKLA, North and South Carolina, Florida and Biloxi MISS. I have a 2400rpm stall in a NON locking converter. You just have to keep it cool.
Last edited by Toocool; March 2nd, 2018 at 04:49 AM.
I agree that heat kills a transmission, but I have a large B&M stacked plate Super Cooler on my car, trans temps never go over 190 no matter how hot it gets here in the south or what driving conditions.
It has worked for me for several thousand miles. I have been a "long hauler" on The Hot Rod power tour twice, I have driven from TN to Texas, OKLA, North and South Carolina, Florida and Biloxi MISS. I have a 2400rpm stall in a NON locking converter. You just have to keep it cool.
I never understood why people go non lock up unless they are pushing huge power or have taller gearing. More efficient, less heat and 300 RPM less.
I never understood why people go non lock up unless they are pushing huge power or have taller gearing. More efficient, less heat and 300 RPM less.
I did it because I did have a lock up converter in this car. I used the vacuum switch which just didn't work with my low vacuum. I didn't want a toggle switch. With my 2400 stall I only dropped 200 rpm with the lock up. No matter what I do I am not going to get great mileage. On the dyno my engine made 583hp and 640lb ft of torque.
I do still get 12.5 miles per gallon so I am happy with that.
I did it because I did have a lock up converter in this car. I used the vacuum switch which just didn't work with my low vacuum. I didn't want a toggle switch. With my 2400 stall I only dropped 200 rpm with the lock up. No matter what I do I am not going to get great mileage. On the dyno my engine made 583hp and 640lb ft of torque.
I do still get 12.5 miles per gallon so I am happy with that.
I would consider your car big power, surprised a 2400 RPM is enough. I find the lock up converters drop 250 to 300 RPM, multiple trans, cars and tach's. I would say 12.5 MPG is plenty good with that power level and the trans must be built right.
I would consider your car big power, surprised a 2400 RPM is enough. I find the lock up converters drop 250 to 300 RPM, multiple trans, cars and tach's. I would say 12.5 MPG is plenty good with that power level and the trans must be built right.
I could actually use at least a 3000 rpm stall but I was trying to keep it reasonable to help keep the temps down. The trans was built by a local builder here, he never uses lock up converters.
I could actually use at least a 3000 rpm stall but I was trying to keep it reasonable to help keep the temps down. The trans was built by a local builder here, he never uses lock up converters.
You would need a very heavy duty torque converter, should be cheaper for a non lock up, probably part of the reason he uses non lock up. Unless you are running short 25" tall or less tires and over 3.90 gears, it will still loaf along fine no doubt.
November 22nd, 2017, 09:45 AM
