jpatfarrell

New Cutlass project for me. Only have had the car for a short time. It has previously been stored in a shed for 12+ years.

Just finished the braking system and fuel system. Changed the oil/filter. Engine is now running and sounding good.

Susposedly the transmission was replaced with a rebuilt one a while back. Transmission fluid looks clean but I haven't changed the transmission filter.

Excited to see the wheels spin but when I put it in any gear nothing happens. Do not feel any type of engagement. When in park the wheels are locked and will not turn.

Any ideas?

thanks,

Pat

tru-blue 442

Pat, make sure the back drive linkage is hooked up and working. Also, did you warm it up to operating
temp then check the fluid on the stick at idle? I see your in the hill country, where about? I'm in Marble Falls.

Vintage Chief

Well, I am not stating this will fix your issue and it may not be your issue; BUT, the very first thing to check is to ensure your ATM is plugged into the intake manifold vacuum. Once you determine it is, in fact, plugged in, we can move further w/ diagnosis. Additionally, make sure the ATM is plugged into the valve at the transmission - just follow the line and look at BOTH ends.

jpatfarrell

Hi tru-blue. Thanks for replying. I'm located in Buchanan Dam, about 20 miles from Marble Falls. Only lived here about a year. What Olds do you currently have?

Just starting to troubleshoot this issue today. Still up on jack stands and thought I would get a kick out of seeing the wheels spin but no such luck. I watched the linkage move when I put the shift arm thru the gears but did not get under it to see what it is doing yet. Also, I did not warm it up and recheck the fluid level at idle. I will do that tomorrow. I was planning on changing the fluid and filter but when I check the fluid it was red and clear and looked new. I will let you know what I find next.


thanks,

Pat

jpatfarrell

Hi Norm, thanks....I will look at vacum hoses. I would not be surprised if it is not connected. The engine is a mess of hoses and wires at the moment. I am not very familiar with ATM so any pointers will be appreciated.

Pat

Vintage Chief

ATM = Automatic Transmission Modulator. It is the basis for your transmission moving into any gear, but in particular, it modulates the 'load' while the engine/transmission is engaged. However, I will point out that the first point of diagnosis (including w/in your CSM) is to look at the diagnosis chart of your TH350>>>DRIVE SLIPS or NO FIRST GEAR<<<<< MODULATOR AND/OR VALVE BAD

Section 7 of your CSM. It only takes a couple minutes just to view the ATM line. It begins at the back of your TH350 where the ATM valve is located (rubber insert into a metal valve). The rubber tube then turns to metal and moves forward to the rear of the engine (passenger side). The metal tube will snake upwards along the rear of the engine along the side of the transmission oil filler tube and then along the edge of the RH-side (passenger side) of the valve cover where it will again be a rubber tube. The end of the rubber tube must plug into the intake manifold.

Vintage Chief

Pat- BTW, you would go a LONG way if this is kinda sorta your first time diagnosing this vehicle's vacuum lines (and will help considerably in fine-tuning your engine tune-up) if you owned a vacuum gauge. You'll need to achieve between ~18" Hg to ~ 20" Hg (vacuum pressure) to achieve a good running vacuum (and proper running engine). It will save you an enormous amount of time and is the best method to determine sufficient vacuum on your engine.

joe_padavano

I would start with an even more basic check. If the trans has been replaced, is the converter bolted to the flexplate?

Vintage Chief

^^x2^^ Yeah, that's always a good one.

matt69olds

First things first, is it full of fluid? Check it with the engine running. Will the trans go into reverse? Will it go into drive? Will it move with the shifter in first gear? Second gear? If you have a trans with 5 neutrals and a park, next thing to try is disconnecting the cooler lines from the radiator, put the ends in a bucket, and have a helper start the car. Be ready to shut off the engine quickly!! If you have no ATF coming from the lines, either it’s still low on fluid, wasn’t rebuilt correctly, or the pump was damaged reinstalling the trans.

jpatfarrell

Thanks again. I appreciate you help.

I will follow this advice over the next few days..


Pat

Vintage Chief

The basic idea of assembling a torque converter to a flex plate>>>

tru-blue 442

I will have to make it over sometime soon to see if we can get it up and running if you strike out.
We have been in Marble since '91. Currently own a 66 vert and 2 project cars. A 69 442 and a 70 W-25 442.
Look forward to meeting you Pat. Good luck with her, Adam.

droldsmorland

All good suggestions. Always start simple working towards the complex.

After verifying the fluid level the next step, as mentioned, is making sure the linkage is connected. Verify its actually "detenting" when you're selecting a gear. By that, I mean you should here audible clicks when the gear selector is placed into RNDSL. without the engine running.

Next step pull the converter/flywheel stone shield and verify the converter is spinning at idle.

Next is a pressure check. YouTube where to locate the pressure test port. Rent or purchase a trans pressure gauge. It must be a hydraulic oil pressure gauge, not an engine oil gauge. Should be a minimum of 0-300 PSI.
Good pressure will determine if the pumps pumping. In park, it should be producing a minimum of ~55-70 PSI. Line or circuit pressure(s) is proportional to throttle position and RPM. It will max out somewhere around 175 at WOT depending on what gear you're in and if the regulator and etc are all doing their job. This PSI is for an unmodified trans.

If this is over your head find an ATRA certified shop to help diagnose the problem(s).

Be sure to close the loop here when you find the problem.

jpatfarrell

Good Morning everyone,

All this advice is greatly appreciated and exactly what I was looking for. I started going through the manuals and doing google searches at first but then thought I would give this site a shot.

I will follow all your steps and let y'all know what I find.

BTW, my project car is a '70 Cutlass Supreme Convertible. It was sitting on blocks for at least 12 years and is prettly much a total restoration project. All I'm wanting our ot the car is a nice looking driver that I can have fun with.

thanks again,

Pat

jpatfarrell

Hi Adam,

Great to know that someone in my area is also restoring a Cutlass or 2. I'm looking forward to meeting you and seeing your projects.


Pat

tru-blue 442

There are a few of us around. Gary over in Fredricksburg, David in Burnet, Ali in Cedar Park, Tim over in Austin.
Probably a few more, my CRS kicks in after a while.

jpatfarrell

Wow, I had no idea that there are that many Olds people nearby. Do y'all ever get together?

Pat

tru-blue 442

Once in a while I see David and Ali. I have yet to meet Gary or Tim.

tru-blue 442

tru-blue 442

Davids W and my vert back in 14.

jpatfarrell

Hey Everyone.....Good News/Bad News,

Good news is that, as several of you suggested, the transmission fluid was low after I got it up to temp. After adding 5 quarts of fluid everything seem to work fine. Wheels spun in forward and reverse. Only odd thing I noticed was that in Park, I could spin the wheels by hand. I'm pretty sure that before this I could not turn the wheels by hand when it was in park.

Bad news is that I'm embarrased that it was low on fluid and I didn't think it would be something so simple as to get the trany up to temp and then check the fluid level. Oh well, I won't let something like that happen again.

Next project is to see why the engine is very hard to start even with a charged battery and jumping from a running car. Engine cranks but very, very slowly. It will finally start but usually after a few tries. Guessing that there might be a bad connection at the starter or the starter is about gone.

thanks again for all the help.

Pat

Fun71

Since you have the car up in the air, this is not surprising. When in Park, the driveshaft can't turn, but since both wheels are off the ground, they can still turn, but in opposite directions due to the differential action - this is what prevents the car from moving (when it's on the ground) and the trans is in Park.

Not sure why you couldn't turn the wheels before.

tru-blue 442

Time for points, plugs & wires. Did you drain the old gas out and replace with some plus or premium?
It probably has an old, tired low torque starter on it too.

jpatfarrell

Good point....hadn't thought of that. I'll check rotation tomorrow.

thanks,

Pat

jpatfarrell

I replaced the gas tank and the sending unit and cleaned out the fuel lines. Once it starts up it runs and sounds really good.

You are probably right about the starter. I have to let it sit for a good while with the jumper cables on a from running car before I could get it to turn over fast enough to start.

Most likely the original starter. I'm guessing a new one will have more torque and turn over the engine much easier/faster...correct?

thanks,
Pat

tru-blue 442

Oh yes. Go for a high torque pictured to the right. Just ask for a starter for a 72 455

Fun71

That sounds like it could be a battery issue. Maybe bring it to an auto parts store and have it load checked before buying a new starter.

jpatfarrell

It could be but this is a brand new battery that I just piurchased. It has 725 CCA and was suspose to be the correct battery.

thanks,

Pat

jpatfarrell

So a starter for a 72 455 would fit my 350 engine ok? Where would you recommend geting this starter?

thanks,

Pat

tru-blue 442

Yes Pat, it will work fine. The starter may have a shim or 2 in the box possibly if it needs them.
Any of the parts stores will have them. Call Carquest over in Kingsland 1st. They may have one.
Napa over in Burnet may have one also. They may want a core or not, depends. The only thing
about your old one is it may be the # correct for your car if you wanted to keep it.

matt69olds

Check the condition of the cables also. The best battery and starter won’t work correctly without the needed current and voltage.

boese1978

timing.......

Fun71

Agreed. The part about having to wait a while with jumper cables connected is what makes me wonder about the battery condition. If the car's battery is 100%, then letting it sit for a period of time while jumped from another vehicle wouldn't really do much. The battery would have to be below maximum charge for that to have any impact, as in the jump from the other vehicle is charging the battery up some.

My experience with a bad starter is that it spun slowly even with a fully charged battery, but it spun, and jumping or whatever didn't make it spin any faster. I had to keep it engaged and it would spin slowly at first, then gradually gain speed.

Vintage Chief

You should charge your battery to maximum capacity w/ a battery charger. You should be able to achieve >13.5V on a new battery.
Charge your battery in one or two or both modes:
(1) With battery cables (+&-) NOT attached charge to maximum capacity then allow the battery to sit a minimum of 24 hours and recheck the voltage on the battery. It should maintain >13.5V;
(2) With battery cables (+&-) attached charge to maximum capacity then allow the battery to sit a minimum of 24 hours and recheck the voltage on the battery. It should maintain >13.5V.

If any of the two above are not able to maintain 13.5V, you most likely have a bad battery. You can also check this w/ a known good hydrometer. There is the possibility your battery is discharging to ground and losing it's voltage.

(3) With a fully charged new battery @ >13.5V you should be able to start your vehicle - easily. Try to start your vehicle and MONITOR the voltage of the battery as you try to start the engine. Does the voltage drop below 12V? Does the voltage IMMEDIATELY fall below 12V or slowly drop to below 12V? If the voltage immediately drops to below 12V during a startup procedure, you most likely have a very bad ground cable, very bad ground connection, very bad (shot) voltage regulator which has lost its ground, or possibly a bad terminal on your starter motor.

You should really be monitoring the start-up procedure/process w/ a volt meter on the battery to determine how fast the voltage drops. You have to absolutely start w/ a fully charged battery. Just knowing the battery is new doesn't provide any assistance other than it's new. New means it can be charged to >13.5V and maintain >13.5V for a 24 hour period (minimum); and, when you try to start the engine it should maintain a continuous cycle of >12V during the entire starting process.

olds 307 and 403

Interesting, I thought all the big body starters had similar torque. Any of them are better than the later, tiny, wimpy 307 starters.

jpatfarrell

Excellent information.

I did clean up the battery cables. They were pretty dirty. After cleaning the connections the starter turns much faster and starts the engine easily, even with a only a partially charged battery.

Now I am suspecting that the charging system has a problem. With the engine running I measure 11.54 volts at the battery terminals. When I increase the engine speed the voltage goes up but only a little to about 11.74. When I removed a battery cable the engine dies. First thing I will do is check/clean all the electrical connections.

Other suggestions to test the alternator/charging system?

BTW, I have a battery charger/maintainer on the way and will charge up the battery when it arrives on Monday. I have had to jump start before.

It's always something......

thanks,

Pat

Vintage Chief

A couple things to point out:
(1) I suspect you cleaned the 'ends' of your battery cables thoroughly. I suspect (hope) you cleaned the battery posts thoroughly and you cleaned the contact points to ground and your starter thoroughly - w/ an abrasive down to bare metal. That is a starting point. However, I wouldn't be surprised if your battery cables might be corroded 'inside' the jackets themselves. You can cut the rubber covering of the cables back for six to seven inches and do a thorough examination of the cables themselves. Note if you see any corrosive materials - generally, oxidized/corrosive cables will present as a greenish/bluish color. If you find corrosion/oxidation, replace the entire length of each battery cable with new battery cable of the same size. Electrons flow from the anode (negative terminal) to the cathode (positive terminal). They 'flow', they are not 'pushed'. This is of critical importance before you start examining/testing the alternator/charging system; because
(2) Your alternator will not be able to charge your battery to capacity if your cables are not in top condition. Because a vehicle is a DC system, there is no distinction between impedance & resistance (in terms of the phase angle of voltage). When you have impedance/resistance in your cables, you restrict (impede) the flow of electrons along the entire system. Therefore, in order to begin testing your charging system, you need to ensure you have the best cables in order to rule out any inability of your alternator/charging system to operate optimally. Again, electrons 'flow' they are not pushed. If you have bad battery cables, you're restricting flow of electrons both ways - in delivering voltage during a starting procedure and in charging the battery from the alternator.

BTW, you won't see enormous increases in charging your battery, but you should see an increase in charging when you increase engine speed (e.g. your alternator attempting to charge your battery). However, once again, you have not begun this procedure from the starting point of a charged new battery which should be >13.5V. So, I wouldn't head down another dark hole trying to figure out if it's the alternator until you've reviewed your cables thoroughly and begun with a completely charged new battery. Cables are inexpensive in terms of an alternator, troubleshooting your voltage regulator, etc. Cables do not last forever and are considered normal routine maintenance of any electrical system.

Vintage Chief

^^^^Matt said it best in a very brief statement....^^^

Although, I might argue what Matt was intending to say is the best battery and starter won't work correctly if you can't 'deliver' the needed current and voltage. Albeit, a brand new battery can't deliver voltage through corroded/oxidized cables with high impedance/resistance. Electrons just will not flow through corroded cables and corroded contact points.

matt69olds

that Matt guy is a idiot!! What he meant and SHOULD have said is “the best starter won’t work correctly if the battery AND CABLES are cabals of suppling the needed current and voltage”.

I hang my head in shame.

DONT EVER TRY AND TEST A CHARGING SYSTEM BY REMOVING A BATTERY CABLE WITH THE ENGINE RUNNING!!! I do need to make clear it’s a useless and potentially dangerous test. If the charging system is working at all, your almost certainly going to get a big spark from the cables, a big enough spark to possibly ignite the gases from a battery. Secondly, it only takes a few amps to run the ignition system, obviously a charging system cable of suppling a couple amps won’t recharge a battery, keep up with the electrical demands of the headlights, heater, etc. Lastly, unhooking the battery while the engine is running can damage the diodes and other internal parts, possibly ruining what was a good alternator.