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What was the original wheel (not tire) size on a '78 Toronado? I think it was 6.00 x 15, and I've read that anything from 6 x 15 through 7.5 x 15 would work. I'm looking to replace the wheel on my '78 as they are original and, while you can still mount tires to them and they hold air, they are rusty. The bolt pattern is 5 x 5.
I'm thinking that this wheel would work. It's also available in 7 x 15 with the 5 x 5 bolt pattern.
I'm thinking that this one would, too, and it's $20 apiece cheaper. I really don't care about what the wheel looks like as I plan to put the full wheelcovers on. I know it's a "trailer" wheel. but it's still a wheel, and that's what doing a search on any vendor's site usually leads to nowadays. 5 x 127 mm is the same as 5 x 5 inches.
Here's one of the original wheels without the wheelcover. Not pretty. In addition to full-size covers, I also have the smaller, dog dish-size covers that go over the center part, but I don't like to put them on because that leaves the rusty part exposed. I know I won't be able to use them with new wheels, but I can't use them now, so it's not really a loss.
Thanks, but that's not what I want. I want to use the full wheelcovers I have, not the smaller covers with trim rings. I have NOS wheelcovers I bought on ebay about six months ago.
I worry those wheels won't work because of the large amount of offset needed for our cars. If you haven't seen one of these wheels with the tire off, take a look here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/73-1973-Cad...item214d769b76
Unfortunately, I'm afraid ebay and craigslist will probably be your answer.
The lack of bad aftermarket rims have helped save the Toronado from being fodder for lowering or gigantic wagon looking raised vehicles. So, glass half full, to me.
Actually, these guys in Phoenix show quite a few Toronados and Eldorados of our generation. I bet you could get a set of four from them: https://www.dvap.com/
Last edited by 77toronado; December 28th, 2018 at 10:46 AM.
Hey Jaunty, just saw this thread on wheels and thought I would share my 2 cents. I once had (last year) a 72 Cadillac Eldorado which I discovered had the same steel wheel that was a perfect fit for the 77 Toronado. They are both the same FWD system so that makes perfect sense. In fact the Eldorado had 6 rims when I got it so I kept one of them for the spare on my Toronado.
Anyway to continue the story the rims on the Eldorado were a real mess. I was able to find a local shop that sandblasted them for me ( believe it or not cemeteries that do head stones do sandblasting). The cost of sandblasting and epoxy painting them in black was $35 per wheel and I had them back in 4 days so the car was not up on blocks for long.So this begs the question is it possible and worthwhile to sandblast and paint the rims you have as you know they fit the car and presumably have no dents and run straight. Will the full wheel discs that you have fit on your existing rims. If so then this may be the way to go.
If this is not an option then Cadillac Eldorado rims from the 70's will fit. And Caddy parts are much easier to come by. While you are at it you might as well replace the unique tire valve stems and these are readily available on eBay.
I got a set of 4 from eBay (Chinese made) for $14 delivered, took about 10 days to ship from China. I know the local NAPA store had a listing for them and the cost per unit was what I paid for 4. I presume these would have been American made hence the price (and quality) difference. But they did not have any stock and no idea if they would ever get any.
Based on my experience you need to watch what aftermarket wheels you get as the offset is critical. These cars have a very high positive offset. If the rims are not deep enough then they rub the fender lip and that is a pain
You may be aware of this already, but in case you aren't here is a link to a web page on Eldorado/Toronado wheels you may find helpful. http://www.breznick.com/toronado/wheels/index.htm
Byron, thanks for all the info. I've learned quite a lot about these wheels in the last couple of days. I've actually gone ahead and purchased four used wheels from ebay. Three of them are from the same seller. I love the "make offer" option!
I could do what you say with the rims I have, but they are not just rusty, they are really rusty. When I had the new tires installed, the shop commented on how rusty they are and how that might cause a problem in getting a good seal. They did have to mount the tire a couple of times on one of the rims to get it to seal, but things have been OK since. I like the idea of being able to take rims that are in better shape to begin with and take my time restoring them while not having to have the car up on jack stands for a period of time.
Here's a photo of one of the ones I bought. The others are in pretty much the same condition.
Most of the Toro and Eldorado wheels I found look like this, with seven large openings. The rims on my car have a larger number (10) of smaller openings. It's also chrome plated in the center part but the plating would need to be redone if I want to show the car with these wheels and the smaller hubcaps on. I presume the 10 versus 7 openings is just a cosmetic thing. I have no interest in using the smaller hubcaps as I purchased a few months ago a set of NOS full wheelcovers for this car (there's that "make offer" thing again!). They were never used and look great, and I want to use them as I think the car looks much better with them. So I am not in a big hurry to have the chrome-plated portions of the wheels I have re-plated.
Here's another peculiarity I came across. On this wheel, note the gap between the red arrows. This is apparently from a first generation Toro, maybe a '66. Maybe this wheel is meant to have the "beauty rings?" In any event, the presence of that gap means that the diameter of the inner part, where the decorative openings are (orange line), is smaller than on the wheels above, so that means there's less room underneath for the brake hardware. Note also the different position of the valve stem opening (yellow circle). So even though this wheel has the same number of decorative openings as my wheels, it's not the same wheel. I don't know if this wheel would work on a second-generation Toro.
I did buy four new valve stems for these wheels ($14 with free shipping). I hope to have everything by mid-January and can start working on them.
Last edited by jaunty75; December 29th, 2018 at 09:40 AM.
Jaunty, I dug up a copy of the wheel specs from my 72 Caddy Eldorado manual for your reference. I think you will see the specs are the same as the Toronado. Just for kicks I did a Google search on sandblasting firms in New Mexico and it appears you have a pile of them to choose from. Some even blast and powder coat. Sure seems like that is a very viable option for you. Anyway here are the Eldo wheel specs
Jaunty, it looks like our posts passed one another. Glad to see and hear that you have found some rims. Based on the photo and comparing that to what my Eldorado rims were like for rust and dirt, I would consider what you got is like factory new - lol! My Caddy rims were not only really, really rusty but the inside had all sorts of dirt and guck, especially the front ones where grease had obviously escaped from a CV boot and had caked and hardened on the rim. The sand blasting did a fantastic job of cleaning everything right back to the metal - inside, outside and along the bead. Then a prime and paint with black epoxy and they were good to go.
Your new wheels look so good, you could just sand them of wire wheel them yourself and paint them up with a spray can.
Have to agree with you that the full wheel disc is the way to go and looks so much better.
Your new wheels look so good, you could just sand them of wire wheel them yourself and paint them up with a spray can.
I'm thinking about this. It's not like the rims are very visible when they're mounted on the car and the wheelcovers are attached. Would save me some time and money.
Jaunty, thought I would share with you a photo of my Eldorado with some really neat chrome rims and low profile tires from a later model Cadillac that I tried out. The bolt pattern matched but the offset was wrong. What a big mistake! While it looked great, due to the low profile tires the ride was terrible and hard and you felt every bump in the ride. What was even worse was the wrong offset made it difficult to turn into my own driveway as the tires would scrape the fender lip. I had to have the torsion bars cranked to raise the front about an inch to get clearance ( not done in this picture) and that not only changed the stance but made me feel like I was driving uphill and straining to see the front over that long hood. So best that you stick with stock wheels and hubcaps with decent sidewall height on the tires to preserve that soft plushy ride.
due to the low profile tires the ride was terrible and hard and you felt every bump in the ride.
I've always thought this would be the case with these tires and wheels that are not much different from bicycle wheels. Don't you risk bent rims as well if you hit a particularly large pothole, bump a curb, or something like that?
Quite possibly because with the lower profile tire you feel like you are riding on the rims. And those fancy rims are lighter and aren't made anything like the big heavy steel rims that came with the car originally. My bigger concern however was the wrong offset was according to GM putting undue strain on the front bearings and other front end components on this big heavy FWD car. The last thing I wanted or needed was to create front end problems on a car that is hard enough to find affordable parts for at the best of times.
I did finally get all four ebay rims, three from one seller and the fourth from another. Paid about $60 apiece plus shipping for the three and $45 plus shipping for the fourth. I wire-brushed them clean of grit and dirt and then sprayed some paint on the visible side. I think they cleaned up pretty well for 30 minutes work. Later in the week I'll get a chance to have the tire shop swap the tires onto the replacement rims.
Jaunty, Congratulations! Your new rims with their new paint job look fantastic! New valve stems and mount your tires and you are all set. Now you are going to give the tires a good cleaning as well - right. LOL!
Be ashamed to spoil the look of the new wheels and hubcaps with dirty grungy tires - LOL!
Definitely on cleaning the tires at the same time. I've noticed that the whitewalls on the tires I bought don't get as white as I was able to get with other brands of tires in earlier years. But I'll get them as white as I can.
Comet and a scrub brush works well on the whitewall. Those fancy expensive tire foams and cleaners don't impress me much. And for chrome especially wheels vinegar and water with a mild scouring pad does wonders.
I want to share a couple of tidbits about our wheels.
#1) - Just like the odd ball valve stems, our cars also used special wheel weights from the factory. Normal wheel weights fasten snug up against the edge of the rim. The Toronado and Eldorado wheels had weights with a longer "tongue", for lack of a better description, that puts the weight further away from the rim edge, so that the wheel covers snap on tight onto the edge. If you go with normal weights, odds are you're going to be trimming some of the fingers off of your new hubcaps, and that is a bad thing.
I found some on ebay a couple of years ago. Another thought I've had is to have the tire shop use the new style glue on weights.
#2 About those wheel covers ..... those are the most insanely aggravating wheel covers I've ever had to put on and take off. Even the notorious squeaky GM wire wheel hubcaps from my '92 Road Master were a breeze compared to these things. Muster up all the calmness and patience you can before you begin. I'm pretty sure it would be against this forum's rules if I typed the words that came out of my mouth the last time I had to work with my hubcaps.
I wish you good luck. Those OEM wheel covers will look sooo nice on your car when you're finished.
77Toro, thanks for the tips! Yes, I have noticed ever since I've owned the car that the full wheelcovers just do not attach comfortably to the wheels. It seems I can never get them to seat evenly all around the circumference without pounding the hell out of them with the rubber mallet, and even then they don't all four sit right. I was hoping that these new wheels would take the covers better. I have tried putting the covers on these new wheels as they are with no tires on them, and they fit quite well. But that's good to know about the weights, and I'll certainly bring that to the attention of the tire shop that's doing the switch.
The mounting of the tires onto the replacement wheels went off without a hitch, and the placement of the weights turned out to be a non-issue. For my wheels, they just put the weights on the back side. When I was talking about the issue with the fellow at the shop (I went to Big O Tire, which is where I bought the tires that are on the car), he told me that they deal with wheels with restrictions on where weights can be placed all the time. He pointed at the wheels on my truck, a 2013 Nissan Frontier, and told me that the wheels on it have no place to put weights on the front side of the wheel, and they don't easily on the back side, either. He said that in that case they use what he called "weight tape", which is apparently something like lead tape (but probably not actually with lead in it) that they can put pretty much anywhere on the inside of the wheel. The bottom line is that there are all kinds of ways to attach weights to wheels, and they would have no trouble dealing with mine. I just wanted to make sure there were no clamp-on weights on the front side of the rim.
The wheelcovers attach beautifully, and here's a few photos of the finished products. Not that you can see the rims, which you can't, but you know they're there. I scrubbed the whitewalls as best I could, but I don't think they'll ever be white white.
I took a photo of the two front wheels before I put them on the car (and before I washed them) so you can actually see the rims. Exciting, I know. But note, no weights!
The back side of one of them.
Yes, I know, these photos are about as exciting as watching paint dry, but this really is an issue that I am pleased to have finally resolved. I've never been happy with the wheels that came with the car as they are very rusty, and getting a good seal when the tire is mounted is always a concern. But not with these replacements. Well worth the money spent.
Last edited by jaunty75; January 17th, 2019 at 07:43 PM.
I must like watching paint dry because I like your photos of the tires before and after and the rims with weights on the backside. Quite helpful. I was aware of the extended arm weights these wheels needed because of the Eldorado. Sorry I did not mention it earlier, I assumed that you already were aware of that. On my Toronado when my dad replaced the tires they did not use the extended weights and instead trimmed a few of the tabs to get the caps to fit.
It kind of works but does creak and clang a fair bit when first starting out and things are cold. I am not spending money new hubcaps just for that. I will live with it as is unless or until I lose a hubcap.
Wonder if light scrubbing with an SOS pad and lots of water will help the whitewalls? Although they do look a lot better than they did before.
I must like watching paint dry because I like your photos of the tires before and after and the rims with weights on the backside. Quite helpful.
Thanks.
Originally Posted by ByronF
On my Toronado when my dad replaced the tires they did not use the extended weights and instead trimmed a few of the tabs to get the caps to fit.
Maybe they could put the weights on the back side like they did with mine?
Originally Posted by ByronF
Wonder if light scrubbing with an SOS pad and lots of water will help the whitewalls? Although they do look a lot better than they did before.
Actually, this is the way I have always washed whitewalls. The steel wool soap pad (SOS or Brillo) is just abrasive enough to get the dirt off without scoring or roughening the surface of the tire, and the soap being in the pad already just makes things simpler. The tire in the top photo above was washed with a soap pad pad and water. Still not as white as I usually get, and I think that's due to the not-terribly-high-quality of this tire. But it was reasonably priced and in stock locally, so I went with it. If I had known before I bought them that the whitewalls would not stay as white as I'd like, I might have gone for something more expensive, but I have these tires now, and I'll keep them.
Now that they're off the car and don't have any tires mounted to them, I'm able to get a good look at and take some photos of the original wheels. As can be seen, fairly rusty, including the inner part that you don't see because the tire covers it. The shop told me that the rusted inside surface made it difficult in a couple of cases to get the valve stem to seat properly, and, in one case, I had to take the tire back because it would not hold air for more than a few days. They had to re-seat that stem. I'm going to see about getting them sand-blasted locally and see what's left after the rust is removed. If they're still good, then it's a question of what to do about the chrome-plated portions. One possibility is to have that part sand-blasted, too, and then just paint that part black or something and only use full wheelcovers. Another thought is to paint that part the color of the car and use the smaller, dog-dish caps, which I do have and which mount over the center part of the wheel. Then have four new tires mounted to these rims and then switch the wheels once in a while just to vary the car's look. A third possibility is to see about getting that part re-chrome-plated. I haven't yet checked to see if there is anyplace within a reasonable distance of me that could do it. If there isn't, I'm leaning toward the idea of painting the chromed part the color of the car and making a second set of wheels/tires just for fun.
Here's a photo I took early on, showing one of the old wheels with the dog-dish cap. Imagine that rim all cleaned up and the chromed part painted a glossy dark maroon like the car. Good idea? Dumb idea?
In these photos it probably looks like the chromed parts of the wheels are in pretty good shape and why do I want to do anything to them? They do look ok from 20 feet, but when you get up close, they are gouged and scratched and scuffed enough that I wouldn't want to use them as-is.
I zoomed in on one of them, and, if you look carefully, you can see little rust spots and pock marks. There are scratches as well in places.
Last edited by jaunty75; January 19th, 2019 at 11:09 AM.
Over the years I've found some of the chrome center wheels but they've always been on 1966-67 Toronado's. I'm sure there's a code on those somewhere that would key out what the manufacture year was. I've never noticed the difference between the number of holes around the outside. I'll have to count to see what I've got now that you've pointed that out! I have extra rims and hubcaps from many years if you end up wanting more, although it sounds like you've got plenty of options already. I've got the mini spare if you want one for car shows, but its not something I'd count on. Its the type that's collapsed and you air up with a can. It came out of the 1978 so now that I think about it, they may not have used that in 1977. John
Jaunty, sand blasting the entire rim is fairly cheap and very effective. I did mine on the Eldorado for about $35 per wheel which included repainting in black epoxy paint. They sand blasted everything front, back and inside and around the bead, then painted the whole thing. I understand that sand blasting will also remove the chrome. But you could always have them mask the chrome off and just do the rest of the rims and paint the sand blasted area black. This should also resolve the seating issue on the valve stem. When they mount the tire most places use a bead sealer as well to minimize leaks in that area it should also work on the valve stem. The only thing to watch on blasting is the media they use. Some medias (soda?) apparently leave a residue that impairs the adhesion of paint and will eventually cause the paint to peel. If you are going to color match the chrome area with the body color apparently all you need to do is sand the chrome with 400-600 grit to get a decent bond surface and then paint. The problem you will have is the seam between the chrome and the steel outer edge of the rim. You can't effectively sand in there so paint will not adhere well, so that area will need to be blasted. If it were me I would just blast the entire rim all around and paint them black and leave them in the corner of the garage as back up units. Just my 2 cents.
I'm sure there's a code on those somewhere that would key out what the manufacture year was.
There's not a lot that I can find stamped into these rims. One of them is noticeably less rusty (but still pretty rusty) than the other three, and I can make out a stamping in the center part of the rim. It say "15 x 6 JK" and then below, at an angle "67". Then something to the right of the 67 that I can't make out. This is the only rim of the four where I can make something like this out. The others are too rusty. Does the 67 mean 1967?
The only other markings are on the center parts of the rims by the lug openings. There's a "J" in the lower left and a "K1" with a "7" below it towards the top. All the rims have something like this. One of them has a K1 with an 8 below it instead of a 7.
Then there's this, which is on the same wheel as has the "67." Looks like something from the Da Vinci Code. It's a circle with a V at the top with an 8 inside it, and then a line on each side of the V that starts parallel to the V and then bulges out before curving back to the point of the V. As I say, I'm sure Robert Langdon could figure it out.
Had the old wheels sandblasted today. Cost me $30 per wheel. Here's the result. They told me that, on a couple of the wheels, the chrome was so well plated on that they couldn't get any more of it off than you can see in the photos even after whaling on it for two hours with their blaster. (Two wheels on the right in the bottom photo.) The next step is priming, which I'm doing as I write this, and then painting them some color.
I redid a set of Toyota steelies a year ago. Scuffed em up with 200 grit after having them blasted, and did 4 coats of primer all over, and 4 coats of duplicolor universal silver on all areas but where the tire covers. The trench where water will sit and the center is welded in still got some rust, but they still look good.
Here they are, painted with a maroon gloss spray paint. I painted the insides and edges (where the tire goes) in flat black.
Here the are with the center caps that fit on them. I was thinking a blackwall tire would look good with these. Your eye would then be drawn to the wheel and not the tire. I could have two sets of wheels/tires for this car, one with the newer rims I just got and the full wheelcovers as I've shown above, and a second set of wheels/tires with these rims and the small hubcaps. Then I could switch them out every few months, and it would be like have two pairs of shoes for the car.
Those wheels are actually not the same as mine as they have a gap between the decorative chrome-plated part and the edge of the wheel. Here's another photo of the same wheel showing the gap (red arrows). The diameter of the large, center part that fits over the brakes is thus smaller (orange line), and the valve stem mounting hole is a different design (yellow circle).
In that '66 Toro auction, there is only one photo that is a halfway decent close-up of a wheel, and I've cropped and enlarged it. In order to hide the gap, as well as to hide the outer edge of the rim, these wheels have a trim ring that attaches around the outer edge of the wheel. So it's really a two-part wheelcover, the small center cap and the trim ring.
I notice that the center cap is different than mine. I don't know exactly what year mine are, but I'm guessing late 1960s?
When I was looking on ebay I saw one ad with your dog dish hubcaps and they called them 1967's. I'm pretty sure I have some of both those style hubcaps, I'll poke around to see if I have them and some of the early style wheels to measure and see what the difference might be. I don't think all years had the bumps on the inside near the lug nuts for the dog dish to fit into.
Last edited by 2blu442; January 26th, 2019 at 07:54 PM.
Reason: Added thoughts.
Ah, 1967 had the optional disc brakes. Maybe that's why the wheels don't have that space near the edge. But these chrome rims did fit on your 1977 disc brakes, correct? So maybe the chrome rims you painted burgundy are from a 1967?
Well... so much for my memory or lack thereof! I realized the dog dish hubcaps you have are the ones on my 1969 Toronado. I've got another 1969 Toronado with chrome wheels on it too, so they weren't just the 66-67 as I thought. I did find some that don't have the gap but still have a thin stainless trim ring. I can share photos of that if you'd like. John
Ah, 1967 had the optional disc brakes. Maybe that's why the wheels don't have that space near the edge. But these chrome rims did fit on your 1977 disc brakes, correct? So maybe the chrome rims you painted burgundy are from a 1967?
My car is a '78, but, yes, those chromed rims that I just repainted red fit just fine on my car which has front disks. They're the wheels that were on the car when I bought it.
I've got another 1969 Toronado with chrome wheels on it too, so they weren't just the 66-67 as I thought. I did find some that don't have the gap but still have a thin stainless trim ring. I can share photos of that if you'd like. John
Here's a wheel with dog dish and hubcap that's on a 1969 Toronado
Then here's another one off the same car that I popped the trim ring off of. I plan to use these on my car, but just to give you an idea that there out there if you wanted to try a set on your car with the burgundy wheels.
December 27th, 2018, 04:56 PM
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