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I'm planning to drain and have checked out the radiator in this '78 Toro I recently acquired. I don't know that there are any problems with it that would require replacing it as it does not leak, but I was looking up replacement radiators out of curiosity, and I can't find any.
None of Autozone, NAPA, O'Reilly, or Rockauto shows availability of a radiator for this car. But they DO show one for a Ninety-Eight of the same year with the same engine. So what's going on here? Is the Toro radiator different in some way, or does it in fact use the same radiator as the 98s? The 98 radiator sure looks the same.
Also, this car looks to have had some sort of aftermarket transmission cooler added. The transmission cooling lines have been removed from the radiator, and rubber hoses have been jammed onto the ends of the lines over the threaded fittings and attached with hose clamps. These hoses attach to a radiator-looking thing behind the grille in front of the radiator.
Here's the situation with the cooler lines. Note that the places where they would attach to the radiator have been plugged with bolts. I'm assuming that those bolts have ruined whatever thread was in those openings so that I couldn't reattach the cooler lines to this radiator if I wanted to.
You can also see, towards the left, how the rubber hoses, which don't leak but do look dried and cracked and probably should be replaced, are attached to the threaded fittings on the ends of the steel lines.
Here's the radiator thingy the rubber hoses attach to.
What is the point of doing this? It certainly doesn't look factory, and the factory did, I'm sure, offer a towing package with heavy-duty transmission cooling which this car doesn't have. Was this a way to get better coolling of the tranmission? Would it actually work better than the normal cooler, which is the radiator? Is there any harm if I did get a new radiator and got rid of this setup and just used the normal transmission cooler on the radiator?
It may have a bad internal to the radiator trans cooler that leaked ATF into the cooling system, or coolant into the trans. Have the internal cooler checked when the radiator is checked. The external cooler probably does a much better job in the hot climates than the internal radiator cooler.
It may have a bad internal to the radiator trans cooler that leaked ATF into the cooling system, or coolant into the trans
If this was the case, why not just have the radiator replaced or repaired? Why add all this extra stuff?
I don't plan to do any towing with this car, and I think I would like to remove this and reconnect the transmission cooler lines to the radiator as it was originally. The last thing I want is jury-rigged hose-to-threaded fitting connections and more rubber hoses. But, as I said, I'm concerned that the threads on the fittings where the cooler lines would attach have been damaged by the bolts that were screwed in to the radiator to block off those ports. Which means I would need to get a new radiator, which takes me back to my original question. Would the radiator for a '78 Ninety-Eight with the 403 engine be the same as for this car?
Pull the bolts out and see if it leaks. They are very short (flare fittings) and possibly did not damage the fittings. If there is no leak then see if the lines can be threaded back in. Either way if your keeping it as is, those nasty cracked hoses need to be changed.
Here's the relevant portion of the radiator usage chart from the '78 service manual.
I'm pretty certain I have the second case down there in the Toronado section, A/C and Y67 with radiator code letters WK. The car does have a low coolant indicator, which is what Y67 indicates, and it does not have a high capacity radiator (V02) nor a trailer-towing cooling system (Y72), at least according to the dealer invoice on this car I obtained from the GM Heritage Center.
If you now go look at the various 88 & 98 radiators, the third one listed under VIN K is the same thing, A/C and Y67, but it has a different radiator code, NW. Both are 3-tube core radiators (what the little dagger means). So the radiators apparently ARE different, but how? Width? Length? Height? Color?
The other thing I notice is that there are a total of EIGHT different radiators shown for the 88 & 98 with the 403 depending on options, all with different code letters. But when you go to a site like Rockauto or NAPA, they don't give you a choice of eight different radiators depending on which of these options you have. These sites just show ONE radiator for a '78 98 with the 403 engine.
If ONE radiator will fill the bill for all of eight different possibilities for the 98, maybe that same radiator will work on my car. I'm tempted to buy one from Amazon, which gives you no hassle at all in returning something and who also pays for the return shipping, just to see if it would substitute.
Possibly, the internal cooler is basically a coiled tube with an inlet and an outlet. It is surrounded by coolant. If there is a leak in the tube which I have personally witnessed before, a lot of coolant winds up in the transmission. Remove the bolts and check it both cold and hot when the radiator builds pressure.
Possibly, the internal cooler is basically a coiled tube with an inlet and an outlet. It is surrounded by coolant. If there is a leak in the tube which I have personally witnessed before, a lot of coolant winds up in the transmission. Check it cold and also hot when the radiator builds pressure.
Good point. Coolant could leak out if I remove those bolts and there actually is a leak between the coolant side and the transmission fluid side as Sugar Bear suggested.
I did a little more checking just now regarding the 98 radiator. According to Autozone's site, the replacement radiator is 30.5 inches between tanks. I measured mine just now, and it's 35 inches between tanks. #@$%!
The plugs look like the ones used/supplied when a rad is put in a manual transmission car without a cooler. The point is that they may be the correct thread and not have damaged the threads in the radiator.
I tried to search for a radiator GM part number to cross reference it with other GM models, but the parts catalog does not list the E-Body (unless I am over looking something)... There are four PN's for B & C Body but not the E-Body and all references are leading to use the radiator production code which consist of two letters as shown in your post illustrations... If you list the code of your radiator (located either on a tag, or stamped into the fill tank), I may be able to find a GM part number thru my system and cross reference it to all other vehicles that radiator may fit...
The plugs look like the ones used/supplied when a rad is put in a manual transmission car without a cooler. The point is that they may be the correct thread and not have damaged the threads in the radiator.
Very true. I just have to work up the courage to pull out those bolts and see what's what. We have family already in town and coming to down for Easter, so I may not be able to get to this until next week. But I will post what happens.
If you list the code of your radiator (located either on a tag, or stamped into the fill tank), I may be able to find a GM part number thru my system and cross reference it to all other vehicles that radiator may fit...
Are you referring to the two-letter code in the chart above, or to a part number? I'll see what I can find.
If you strike out on a new one my parts car has the WK radiator in it. The code tag is still there so its possible it hasn't been worked on yet. Just let me know if you want to see pictures and I'll pull it. John
Or if I can pull any codes off this radiator or code tag to help you key out a new one let me know.
OK, some updates. I told the relatives to excuse me, I'm going into the garage for a few minutes. I grabbed a socket and ratchet and removed one of the plugs. Sugar Bear is correct. It is a correct plug for this fitting, and the threads are not damaged. It appears that I could reattach the coolant lines to the radiator if I wanted to.
When I removed the plug, no fluid of any kind came out, and everything looked dry, so I'm assuming the add-on transmission cooler was installed as a precaution against an overheating transmission and not because of any problems with the radiator.
As far as getting any numbers off of the radiator as cruzn asked, there are some embossed numbers on the tank just below the filler neck. They're not the easiest to read, so I tried a pencil rubbing, twice, to get at them, and what I got is shown below.
It looks to me like the top line is 1R 575 and the bottom line is M19886 with the 19 digits a larger font size than the 886.
John, thanks for the offer, and hold that thought. As I said at the top of this thread, I have no reason to suspect any problems with this radiator, and I'll see what my local radiator shop says about it when I get it out and over to them. If there is a problem that can't be repaired, and I can't locate a new one, which seems likely, I'll get back with you about the one you have.
I'm changing my mind on this, and I think I'm going to keep the add-on cooler. There will never be any chance of the coolant and transmission fluids mixing. Just need to replace the hoses.
One thing I'd like to do is get rid of that hose-over-the-threaded-fitting attachment method. Any chance they make a fitting that will attach to the threaded fitting on the end of the steel coolant line and convert it to a hose barb?
One thing I'd like to do is get rid of that hose-over-the-threaded-fitting attachment method. Any chance they make a fitting that will attach to the threaded fitting on the end of the steel coolant line and convert it to a hose barb?
Something like this, but with the proper threads.
The hose doesn't go over the threaded flare nut. It slips over the flared end of the metal line and is clamped in place. The flare nut doesn't seal to the tube anyway. As configured, it's fine, as the flare on the end of the steel tube provides a retention feature for the clamped hose, but if you want to change to the barb fitting, you must use a fitting with a female inverted flare, not pipe threads. I can't tell for sure, but the fitting in the photo appears to be pipe threads.
As Joe stated the way the hose is hooked up now is fine. If you don't want the fittings there, just cut the end of the tube, slide the fitting off and flare the ends a little. Either way get some new hose.
The hose doesn't go over the threaded flare nut. It slips over the flared end of the metal line and is clamped in place.
Thanks. I eventually figured this out when I looked at it a little more closely.
As far as redoing everything, I ordered two of the item on the right in the photo below. (The kit also comes with two of the items on the left, but I don't need those.)
It's supposed to be a transmission line fitting, 1/2", which is the size of the fittings on the ends of the steel lines. I hope it works. If not, Amazon is excellent on returns, and I can go back to the current connection method but with new hoses.
OK, the radiator is out and at the shop, and the guy is not optimistic. He said the interiors of the tanks are heavily calcified and probably won't survive a clean out. Or something to this effect.
So I am negatively optimistic he can do something with it while at the same time on the hunt for another one. With the radiator out, I spotted another tag on it that looks like it might have a part number. Photo below. It looks like 19 on the top and 0860575 on the bottom. Does this mean anything to anyone?
Assuming the old one can't be repaired, and I don't find a direct replacement, what are my options? I'm thinking again about getting a radiator for a '78 Ninety-Eight with the same engine. These are available, and the only difference appears to be that the distance between the tanks is about 4.5 inches less, 30.5 inches instead of 35 inches. So what would this mean? I realize that the total surface area for heat transfer would be less, so there would be less cooling capacity, but would it be enough to be a problem?
I was thinking that I could fit the radiator up against the passenger side of the place where it sits. That way, the lower radiator hose should fit. On the other side, the end of the radiator will be 4.5 inches closer to the center of the car. Thus, I would expect that the upper hose would not fit as it would be too long. But I should be able to use the upper hose for the 98, I would think. One issue, though, is that the radiator would be centered on the 98, so the difference in upper hose length would be more likely to be half of the total 4.5 inch difference, or only 2.25 inches.
I was thinking to do this in stages. Get the radiator first and put it in. The top plate will be too long, too, so I'll have to somehow move inward a few inches the support that's now at the far end of the plate. Once it's in, and I'm sure there will be other niggling little problems that will crop up in doing this, I'll measure the actual needed upper hose length and see what the possibilities are.
What do you all think of this hair-brained scheme?
Last edited by jaunty75; April 17th, 2017 at 06:00 PM.
I could also just center the Ninety-Eight radiator and use both the upper and lower hoses for a 98.
Sorry I'm a little late to this thread. You've already discovered the same as I did last year - no one sells a replacement radiator for our 77 or 78 cars.
I suspected a Cadillac Eldorado of the same year might match, but didn't pursue it.
My '77 had a couple of small cracks that wept under pressure. I took it to a real, old fashioned radiator shop that explained why the whitish residue I saw was signs it wasn't worth trying to solder up.
Using my side tanks, they were able to order and install a new core for me. It wasn't cheap - think around $400 or so - but it fit perfectly and functions wonderfully. It was worth the peace of mind driving up I-75 to Lansing last year in June.
Thanks! Good to hear from someone who has/had the same problem. I'm kind of hoping the radiator shop I took it to, which is a pretty old-fashioned looking place itself, will come up with an idea to salvage mine.
I looked up a radiator for a '78 Eldorado just now, and Rockauto does show availability. It's a little closer to the length I need at 32.5 inches, but it's also slightly wider at 17.25 inches instead of 16.5 inches. I'm guessing that extra 3/4" would cause problems with fitment of the top plate.
I looked up the '78 Cadillac Deville, and, interestingly, it takes the same radiator as the Olds 98. I just noticed that this radiator, which I have been speculating on using, is also 17.25 inches wide...Hmmm
Last edited by jaunty75; April 17th, 2017 at 08:19 PM.
Any idea WHY no radiator is made for these cars? Just not enough demand? I'd actually like to know why the radiator is so much different than the one used in the 98. It's the exact same motor, right?
I looked it up just now, and the '78 Toronado XS weighs a full 800 lbs more than a '78 98. Ouch. That's probably enough right there to justify a larger radiator.
Doing a little math, the cross-sectional area of the 98 radiator is 533.75 square inches (17.25 x 30.5). The cross-sectional area of the Toronado radiator is 577.5 square inches (16.5 x 35). That makes the Toro radiator about 8% larger in cross section. That doesn't seem terribly huge to me.
Thanks. I may end up going there (or sending the radiator there) if I can't work out anything else. By the way, are my measurements of the radiator correct? I don't have mine in front of me because I left it at the shop. I made some quick measurements before leaving it there, and I know it's definitely 35 inches between the tanks as I measured that several times. But I made only a quick measurement of the width (top to bottom as it sits in the car), and I think it's 16.5 inches.
Using my side tanks, they were able to order and install a new core for me. It wasn't cheap - think around $400 or so
Heard from the radiator shop today, and they're going to do the same thing as was done with yours. Use the old tanks and build a new core. Cost will be pretty much the same as what you paid.
I did a little more radiator searching as well, and I'm surprised to discover that it's not just 1977 and 1978, but rather it's the whole second generation of Toronados (1971 to 1978) for which radiators are not available. I couldn't find one for any of those model years from any of the usual vendors. I wonder why.
Sorry I couldn't get back to you with the measurements. My car stays about an 1.5 away from where I am at the moment, and life seems to want to intervene in my fun right now.
Look at the bright side - the stock hoses and things will still fit your car.
As for the lack of availability, I kind of looked at it this way - Other than the two that I own, when was the last time I saw a 2nd generation Toronado? Yeah, in many, many years.
The same situation seems to apply to the power antenna units, too. No one lists replacement masts for these beasts, but I know something else has to fit.
I guess the question isn't so much why aren't radiators available for the second gen Toros. Rather, it's why did those second gen Toros need their own radiator? Couldn't Olds have gotten by by using the same radiator as the 98? The Toro used the same engine, right? Seems that GM could have saved some money in not having to create a separate line of radiators for a relatively low-production model.
jaunty: Nice. I have had many radiators recored over the years and they have worked very well. I like to keep the original "Harrison" tanks, the original looks, and the right connections. My 92 Silhouette is one of the last metal tanks I have seen. Newer cars seem to have plastic tanks. Regards, Trent in Los Angeles
The front engine area is all back together with new water pump, thermostat and thermostat housing, fan clutch, radiator and hoses, heater hoses, power steering hoses, and alternator.
I took a photo of the area before putting the radiator back in. Yes, I painted the fan blue. Sue me. It was ok mechanically, but stained and spotted, so I sanded it and painted it with some old Dodge Dakota blue I had on hand from when I had an '02 Dakota. With the shroud now back in place, you can't see the fan unless you look hard, anyway.
Now that I look at it, I should have painted the water pump pulley, too. I think I have some canary yellow lying around....
The struggle to get this car fully roadworthy continues. After getting the radiator and all back on the car and starting it up again, it began to have trouble staying running. It would start when cold just fine and fast idle just fine. But as soon as the idle slowed, it would start to bog and cough and sputter and put out some black smoke and finally die. It could be restarted, but it would not stay running unless I kept my foot on the gas. It could not be driven as it would stall at every stop sign and stop light.
So, after having done something to every part of this car except the top of the engine, I thought it was time to rebuild the carburetor. In the process of doing that, two other problems cropped up that have slowed progress, but things are finally getting back together.
In removing and rebuilding the carb, I did not come across any smoking guns, such as a stuck float, that could be responsible for the poor running, but I did discover one thing in removing the carb from the engine...it was barely attached. The back two bolts were just a hair past finger tight (I probably could have removed them with only my thumb and forefinger if I had though to try), and the front two bolts weren't even finger tight, but rather could be spun loosely in their holes with just my fingers. So I thought here's a possible vacuum leak, among other possible problems.
The inside of the carb was of course dirty, but not excessively so, and it did show signs of having been rebuilt at least once before.
The other two problems that arose concerned the EGR valve and the choke stove. The two pipes coming out of the choke stove both broke off when I tried to remove the stove from the engine, and I broke both of the bolts that hold the stove on the intake when I tried to loosen them with a breaker bar. I have since drilled those out and re-threaded them, so I think I'm good to go on that. Just waiting for a new stove and pipes from Fusick to arrive.
The EGR problem concerned the mounting for it. This car has an unusual adapter that sits on the intake and that the EGR mounts to, and it broke into two pieces when I removed it. One of the mounting ears broke off.
I've since had it repaired at a local welding shop followed by a machine shop to deck the mounting surfaces, but this took a week to get done (plus $75).
But we are now close to having everything ready to put back on the car and try again. I still also have to connect the 7.5 miles of vacuum hose, but progress is being made.
Here's a diagram of the intake manifold components out of the '78 chassis service manual, and the EGR valve adapter (look at that, I even called it by its correct name!) is actually shown here, Toronado only.
To conclude this story, I put what vacuum hoses I could (more about that in a moment) back on the car and started it up. Success. It started fine and ran smoothly, even at low idle. Drove it around the neighborhood with no problems. No stalling, no coughing and stumbling, no black smoke, required only minor adjustments to the idle mixture screws.
But I still have vacuum line issues. The entire air cleaner vacuum system ("Thermostatic Air Cleaner") is disconnected and cannot be reconnected because the vacuum hose barbs on this temperature sensor/vacuum switch thingy (stop me if I'm getting too technical), which is attached to the air cleaner on the opposite side from the snorkel, are broken off (second photo below). One of our moderators has been helping me with this car by selling me parts off of a '78 Toronado parts car he has, and I'm in the process of acquiring this part if it's good, which it looks to be in a photo he sent me.
Obviously the car runs and seems to run fine without any of this air cleaner vacuum system functioning, but it just seems that if I can get it back to factory configuration as much as possible, so much the better.
Here's a couple of photos of the broken piece. Exciting, I know. But stories are always better with pictures!
Here's a photo with the air cleaner reinstalled. While I was idling away the time waiting for EGR valve adapters to be welded and so forth, I painted the air cleaner cover, the snorkel, and the valve covers, and I put an "Oldsmobile 403" sticker on the cover. Yes, I know, that's not correct for a Toronado as there should be a blue "Toronado - Front Wheel Drive" sticker on there. The sticker that was there was a deteriorated mess, so I pulled it off. I have not been able to find a replacement sticker at any of the usual sticker sources (Fusick does not have it, but they don't have much for 1978 model year Oldsmobiles--what they DO have that fits '78 Oldsmobiles are things that are listed as fitting earlier cars but just happen to also fit '78s).
"Oldsmobile 403" stickers are available, and since it IS a 403, I thought that this is better than a blank cover. If I ever do come across the correct Toronado sticker, I can replace this one.
Here's a view from the side showing the new EGR valve on its repaired adapter. There's just enough room for it.
Yes, I used yellow tie-wraps to hold down the coolant overflow hose and to hold the fan shroud in place. I could have used black ones, so you'd hardly notice them, but yellow makes a statement, don't you think?
I had to use tie-wraps because the plastic part of the shroud that holds the nut in place when you insert the bolts broke off when I removed the shroud to get at the water pump, etc. I'll have to look around for a replacement shroud, but that's a low priority.
There is supposed to be a small metal tube that connects the grommet on the side of the air cleaner visible just above the EGR valve to the grommet on that valve cover filter or whatever it's called just below the EGR valve. I have that tube, but I've been removing and installing the air cleaner so much that I didn't want to have to keep connecting and disconnecting it. It will go on once I get all the air cleaner vacuum hose issues dealt with.
And, no, I don't have the spark plug wires attached to those little loom mounting points on the valve covers because all of the looms are broken. More little pieces to be on the lookout for.
Last edited by jaunty75; May 21st, 2017 at 11:04 AM.
Car went to the paint shop today. The photos below are it sitting in the lot outside. The next time you see it -- the next time I see it -- it will be repainted in that color. Probably several weeks before I get it back.
In case anyone was wondering, the trim around the headlights has already been removed. I removed it to replace the headlights, and I didn't put it back in anticipation of the paint job.
Yes, the antenna doesn't go down all the way. But it does go all the way up when the radio, which still works fine, is turned on. Another job for later.
You've heard of the best little whorehouse in Texas? Well, this is the best little paint and body shop in New Mexico. This guy is great. Charges a very reasonable rate, and does a great job. A little shop out at the edge of town, but he gets a lot of business, including lots from the local university.
Sounds like a great transformation. Do you have rear bumper fillers to be painted at the same time as the car? Or maybe save some of the paint mix? I hope you will be able to duplicate the original style pin striping. Whitewalls and the white pin stripes look nice. Great to hear it runs so well. Interesting story fixing the details to make it run so well. Never heard of a broken EGR bracket. Sounds like with some new tires, fluid checks, you will be on the road up north to the Oldsmobile Club National Show in Albuquerque this July. NM has some nice looking plates. I like the red letters on yours to coordinate with the car. Good job! Trent in Los Angeles
The rear bumper fillers currently on the car are in pretty good shape. I do not have any replacements, anyway. I'm not expecting any problems with replicating the pinstriping.
New tires are on the agenda, but these that are on the car are good enough to move the car around on, and the date codes on them are not that old (all less than five years). The fellow who sold me the car put them on so that the car could be moved as the tires that were on it when he decided to sell it were rotted.
I have to say that I am not particularly enamored of the wheels on this car. I also have full wheel covers for the car, and at first I was confused, thinking that, in order to use them, I would have to get conventional wheels. Then I discovered that the full wheelcovers fit OVER the bright steel parts you see.
So there are two possibilities for wheelcovers. One is these wheels with small, dessert-plate-size caps that go over just the center part of these wheels where the lug nuts are. You can see what those covers look like in this photo.
The problem with these wheel covers is that they rattle like a son of a bitch. When I first got the car on the road, I had these covers on, and every time I went over a bump in the road, it sounded like a can or two of nails were rattling around in the front end. That had me all concerned that something was loose until I realized that it was just these covers. I took them all off, took the car back on the road, and all was quiet. They fit snugly enough, but if I just bump one of them as I'm walking past the car, it'll rattle.
The full wheelcovers, which require the small wheelcovers to be removed, fit over everything you see that's shiny chrome. But my problem with those is that they are very difficult to fit over the valve stem. These valve stems are some sort of Toronado-specific thing, I think. It's at the 11:30 position in this photo. The wheels themselves are rusty, and I'd really like to just get a set of four conventional wheels that will take the full covers.
The full wheelcovers are actually in very good shape. I think that's because the prior owner didn't use them much as he liked the look with the smaller covers. I have not yet made any attempt to clean these. Something to do while the car is at the paint shop.
I'm actually going to have to find lots to do while the car is at the shop. I told my wife I need to get a third old Oldsmobile. She said let's finish this one first.
Last edited by jaunty75; May 22nd, 2017 at 02:20 PM.
April 14th, 2017, 03:27 PM
