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As all of the millions of you who have been following the restoration of the '78 Toro XS I bought out of a Georgia pasture back in late winter of this year may remember, the car has a very early VIN, 3Z57K8M700005. I've taken this to mean that my car was the fifth Toronado off the assembly line for 1978.
I got to thinking, wouldn't it be interesting to know not just what number Toronado this was to come off the line for '78, but what number Toronado XS this was. I ordered an invoice for this car from the GM Heritage Center as they can provide them for '77 and later Oldsmobiles, and it shows the XS option (code Y73 on the invoice). For '78, 22,362 Toronados were built without the XS package and 2,453 (11% of total '78 Toro production) were built with it. For '77, those numbers are 31,371 and 2,713, respectively.
Ever seen a VIN with all those zeros strung together? I sure haven't.
Might my car be the first XS built for 1978? What are the odds of that, do you think? I figure I could find out by ordering the invoices for the Toros with the preceding four VINs, 3Z57K8M700001, 3Z57K8M700002, 3Z57K8M700003, and 3Z57K8M700004. Unless the Heritage Center gives me a break on the price, it would cost me $50 per VIN for each invoice. Is it worth $200 to find this out? I do think it would be pretty cool to know that my car was the very first Toronado XS to come off the line for '78 and be able to prove it, at least by VIN sequence and dealer invoices. If it turns one or more of the first four VINs were also XSs, then I would at least know what number mine was as it would be the first, second, third, fourth, or fifth, depending on how many of the preceding four were also XS's, if any.
I sent a question about this to the Heritage Center as their order form also asks for the body plate information, and I obviously don't have that for the other cars, if they even exist any more. But I don't think this type of information is needed to locate the vehicle invoice as that's stored by VIN. But the order form does not say way one or the other about the body plate info being optional, so that's why I sent the question. We'll see what they say. If they say it's not necessary, I may go ahead and do it. Heck, I've already spent about $200 million on this car, so what's another 0.01% of that, right?
How it looked in February 2017, being dragged out of the Georgia muck and onto a flatbed truck to begin its cross-country journey to New Mexico.
How it looked six days ago.
Last edited by jaunty75; November 5th, 2017 at 09:50 PM.
There was one close to where Oldsguy and I used to live in Lee's Summit, MO (18 years ago). It was pretty trashed. I wonder if it's still there?
Hopefully the GM Heritage Center lets you get that info with the VINs. $200 isn't too much to spend. I don't know if it would add to the value of your car if you decide to sell it one day but it would be cool to know!
Were there other cars built on the same line? Perhaps 1 through 4 aren't even Toronado's.
There might very well have been, but I'm looking for info on the cars whose VIN's end with 700001 through 700004. The initial 7 is what's important. Delta 88s, Cutlasses, whatever could have come off ahead of any Toros, but they will have different starting digits.
I'm not claiming that my car is the fifth one off the line that year. Rather, I'm assuming it's the fifth Toronado off the line. For all I or anyone knows, dozens or hundreds of other cars might have been built before the first Toronado came off.
If my car was the fifth Toro off the line, then four Toros preceded it, and it's whether or not those cars had the XS option that is of interest to me.
$200 isn't too much to spend. I don't know if it would add to the value of your car if you decide to sell it one day but it would be cool to know!
I agree. $200 is not too much. I think that being the first XS off the line would add about $0 to the car's value, but it would still be a cool thing to know. Coolness is important!
I see your car was shipped on 9-14-77. Early yes but not that early. Maybe 78 production started a little later than 77 because we have two 77s that were built in the first week of June of 76. Body 48 and 55. I know they were built on the first day of 77 Toronado production, however, I can not say for sure if that many cars were built in one day. This was not like the Cutlass line where they pumped out many cars in a single day. Hope that helps. As for the 200 to find out once and for all, if it finally gives you the answer you have been looking for, what's 200 bucks? Maybe they will work with you. Talk to Christo at center. He is a Toronado guy and a nice guy at that.
Oh I get you. The 7 is what denotes Toronado. That makes it a little easier.
Knowing what number your car was off the line may not add any value to it, but when you go to sell and your car has some documentation and another one doesn't, it makes yours more attractive.
also, I don't see on the invoice if it shows wether or not the car was ordered or from inventory - the car could've been built in August, sat in a holding lot in Lansing for days/weeks until a dealership was found & then shipping was scheduled
I don't have 1978 model year dates, but the new cars usually didn't go on public sale until mid/late September - dealerships wouldn't want that inventory to show up too much in advance
I got my answer without having to spend any money.
The GM heritage center wrote back to say that they checked their archives, and there are no invoices on file for the first two VINs I was interested in, 3Z57K8M700001 and 3Z57K8M700002. For the next two, Z57K8M700003 and 3Z57K8M700004, both invoices showed the Y73 option, so both were XS's. So, at best, mine is the third XS built for '78.
I asked what it means if there is no invoice on file for those two VINs. No car was ever made with that VIN? Car was made but never sold? Anyone have an idea? I'll post the answer I get from them when I get one.
Edit: I received an answer from the Heritage Center. He said they're "not exactly sure why there is no invoice on file...every vehicle manufactured was assigned a VIN."
So can I take that last statement to mean that, while every vehicle has a VIN, not every VIN has a vehicle? There were simply no cars made with those first two VINs? Maybe, for whatever reason, the cars with the first two VINs were built but never sold. Maybe they had too many problem during production and couldn't be fixed? Or maybe they went to a museum? Or an Olds exec's garage?
We'll probably never know.
Last edited by jaunty75; November 6th, 2017 at 12:20 PM.
cars (in this case Toronados) are assigned VIN numbers in sequence 700001, 700002, 700003, etc. - but they are not built in that same sequence
I've heard this from several places, so perhaps I'm making much ado about nothing. I heard that, if a car was special ordered, a VIN was assigned as soon as the order was received by the factory, even if the car was not built for a period of time after the order was received.
Originally Posted by hurst68olds
I don't see on the invoice if it shows whether or not the car was ordered or from inventory
I don't know. I bought it from the son of the second owner, who bought it used in 1980.
Last edited by jaunty75; November 6th, 2017 at 12:03 PM.
hundreds of "what if" scenarios to explain the missing "shipping invoice", maybe there never was one if it was transfered to another GM dept. / plant display / exec. / crash or other testing / proving grounds / internal use / etc.
I think you're right. But it seems likely that whatever happened to these first two cars, assuming they were actually built, they were never sold to the public, or at least never shipped to a dealer. I would assume that that's the basis of the Heritage Center's archives. They would have records only for vehicles actually shipped to a dealer.
I think you're right. But it seems likely that whatever happened to these first two cars, assuming they were actually built, they were never sold to the public, or at least never shipped to a dealer. I would assume that that's the basis of the Heritage Center's archives. They would have records only for vehicles actually shipped to a dealer.
This is awesome!
My goal is to do the same with an Oldsmobile that my Aunt has owned since new 1976. She has promised to give it to me once we have moved her into a nursing home.
For now I have to settle for the restoration of a 2007 Ford Freestyle that I got from a man in Africa.
My goal is to do the same with an Oldsmobile that my Aunt has owned since new 1976.
If this car is a '76 or older, and I presume it must be if she's owned it new since '76, you're going to be out of luck. The GM Heritage Center has sales invoice only for 1977 and newer model year Oldsmobiles. Records were not kept by Oldsmobile for the years prior.
Cars number 0001 and 0002 were more than likely used in the GOVERMENT CRASH TESTS for that car and were destroyed by the factory after testing. That was common with ALL US auto factories to my knowledge. Cool car no matter what, I have never seen one.
My goal is to do the same with an Oldsmobile that my Aunt has owned since new 1976. She has promised to give it to me once we have moved her into a nursing home.
For now I have to settle for the restoration of a 2007 Ford Freestyle that I got from a man in Africa.
The Freestyle (later renamed Taurus X with some mechanical upgrades) is a very spacious and capable CUV. The only misgiving was Ford elected not to give it a few additional inches of ground clearance, not unlike the Volvo XC90. Was just getting ready to lease one, but the Flex was released and went with the larger Ford model.
November 5th, 2017, 09:41 PM
