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350 Underhood restoration-A/C, Cooling, Timing set
1969 Cutlass S, 350/350TH, 91k miles, A/C.
OK, so I opened a major can of worms. It started when I decided to recharge the A/C system. When I discharged the A/C system to replace the receiver-drier, the system oil looked like cola. I decided I needed to do a full flush and evacuation. My capacity for MAW's is nearly boundless, so I ended up deciding to replace the hoses, compressor, and condenser. To do that, of course, I had to remove the radiator.
After removing the top plate, I saw that the original cushions had been replaced with short lengths of rubber weatherstrip. The radiator in the car was a 4-row replacement (not original), but as far as I could tell, an exact duplicate of an OEM HD radiator. But the top plate obviously was not a 4-row top plate, so the ends of the mount ears had been cut off on the engine side to accommodate the extra thickness of a 4-row radiator.
The radiator was obviously not original, but I don't know about the top plate. And clearly some previous owner had done a fair amount of work to the cooling system.
I spent a day removing belts, hoses, and degreasing the front of the engine. There was a true mess hiding behind all those pulleys and accessory brackets. I still have a little more to do there, but it's much better now. Since the water pump had begun to squeak a little and I was already this far in, I decided I should look at replacing or rebuilding the water pump.
And, well, if I was going to remove the water pump, I was only a few bolts away from the timing gears and chain. The last rocket 350 I had jumped its timing chain at about 85,000 miles, so I figured I'm on borrowed time. I don't know if this engine has had any work done to the timing chain and gears, but I doubt it, and I'll find out soon. I ordered a new Cloyes double roller set from Summit, along with new gaskets and a bunch of other stuff to replace.
Looking at the water pump and comparing casting numbers convinced me that this was not the original water pump.
Casting number E 413307 Y
A little research tells me that this casting number corresponds to GM part number 231886, which was first used around 1973. It's definitely not the car's original (1969) water pump, so there was no point in spending $$$ having it rebuilt. I decided on a FlowKooler #1576 -- cast iron body with a high-flow impeller. It's on the way while I continue with other stuff.
At this point, I have the old radiator out, water pump off, pretty much everything stripped off the front of the engine down to the balancer and timing cover. My plan is to do the timing set first, then work my way back outwards and finish with the A/C (probably in the spring).
There is a lot of surface rust all over the front of the engine. The core support also has a lot of surface rust, so while I'm in there with easy access, I'll POR-15 everything I can.
I'm trying to leave the A/C system alone for now, since it's currently sealed up and not in my way.
With the radiator out, I spent another day cleaning and degreasing the lower half of the core support.
So now I have a little bit of a dilemma.
I was not surprised to find that in order to accommodate a 4-row radiator, the bottom radiator mount brackets had also been modified. Turns out that the 'modification' was pretty extensive. Here is the passenger side mount.
A little closer and clearer:
I found replacement lower brackets and rubber cushions that were correct for a 4-row radiator. I think I got those from one of Inline Tube's eBay shops, but Fusick and The Parts Place also had them.
I cut and ground the old passenger side bracket off the core support. It had two spot welds holding it in place. So since my original lower brackets were all hacked up, I can't tell exactly how they should be located from front to back. I am 100% certain I can locate them correctly side to side, but I have about 1/2" of latitude for locating them front to back.
New lower radiator bracket (passenger side). The wood is clamped to the core support just for registering side to side location.
In the photo, I have the bracket sitting as far back (towards the engine) as it could go. But I could move it about 1/2" towards the condenser. Since I don't weld, my plan is to drill the core support and rivet the bracket to the core support along with some steel-filled epoxy to reinforce things.
Where should the bracket actually be located???
I really don't want to put it in the wrong place and have issues later reinstalling the fan shroud or other stuff (although it doesn't appear that this would be a problem). I also don't want the radiator leaning, and since I don't have a top plate to measure... well, you get the idea.
I'd like to get these brackets in place today so I can finish the core support work and move on to more interesting things... I may have to just wing it.
i cant help on brkt location but if you wait till everything else is together you can set it up w the rad not to close or far from the fan. my concern would be too close and no fan clearance
I should probably have taken better note of the clearance between the fan and radiator before removing them, but my recollection is that there was at least an inch or more. I don't think I could screw up the bracket locations enough to cause a problem. I'm more concerned now about issues with reinstalling the shroud. I guess I'll need to mock things up just to be sure. I want to do that now while the old condenser is still in place, since I don't care about damaging it a little... but I really don't want the new one buggered up.
So, I have the new radiator support brackets installed. I placed them in the exact same locations side to side as the originals. I moved them towards the engine as far as they could go, then moved them away (towards the front of the car) 1/8". I can't foresee any interference issues with the fan shroud or the fan itself, and as near as I can tell, that's pretty close to the original location.
Everything I could reach on the core support and the front arms of the frame got painted with 2 coats of POR-15, as well as under the battery tray.
Today I plan to remove the harmonic balancer and timing cover. Not ever having done this before, I read the FSM and searched the site for extra info. The FSM says to remove the oil pan first (!), but the consensus here appears to be that the timing cover is reasonably easy to remove with the pan in place, but difficult to reinstall. I am sure I'll have questions from those who have experience with this.
I didn't get as far as I'd have liked with this - the weather was too nice to stay indoors. But at least I got this far. The harmonic balancer bolt came out without too much trouble with an impact wrench, and the balancer itself came off pretty easily with a puller.
Even after loosening the front 3 oil pan bolts on each side (which really didn't provide as much relief as I'd hoped), I had to pry the timing cover off. I'm just hoping I can get it back on without having to lift the engine. But that's still in the future.
Does this look pretty typical?
Although the nylon on the cam gear is cracked all over the place, it appears to still be all intact. I'll check the back side when I pull it off, but on the front side of the gear, it's all there. I think I dodged a bullet, and I'm glad I decided to do this now instead of waiting any longer. I looks like it's ready at any moment to start coming off.
I didn't see or feel any wear at all on the crankshaft snout. I'll mic it anyway, but it shouldn't need any sleeving.
There was almost no gasket left under the timing cover, which probably explains the ton of greasy crud that was (and some of which still is) everywhere around the lower part of engine compartment.
The chain actually looks pretty good to me, and didn't seem to be terribly loose, but I don't really know how loose is acceptably loose for these, either. I guess I'll find out when I put the new timing set on. Both sprockets have pretty pronounced wear marks from the chain, though.
I'm thinking now that as long as access is so easy, I'll go ahead and replace the fuel pump, even though it looks pretty ok to my untrained eye. I did find a crack in what I believe is the fuel return line, so I'll replace those rubber lines as well. I used the Gates barrier hoses on a motorcycle a couple years ago, and I probably have enough left to do this.
All I see for fuel pumps anyplace are Spectra and Airtex, and both are generally in the $28 to $35 range. Are either of these better or worse? Are there any others out there that I should be looking for?
A '68 or '69 with four row rad had an extra bracket tab welded to the engine side of the support to accommodate the thicker rad. The shroud tabs drop into the slot of the extra tab. Those short pieces of weather strip are meant to be 28 inch long pieces that lie along the top and bottom of the rad in between the upper and lower brackets and glued in place onto the rad itself, to act as a seal. The profile of your short pieces is correct for the long pieces. Although they will interchange, a '68 top plate is different than a '69 top plate.
A '68 or '69 with four row rad had an extra bracket tab welded to the engine side of the support to accommodate the thicker rad. The shroud tabs drop into the slot of the extra tab.
I noticed those tabs mentioned in the assembly manual but haven't been able to find any more info about them. And even though the radiator I removed was a 4-row, those tabs/extensions were not there. The shroud fit fine though. I think I'll just have to see how things go back together and if necessary, fab up something to make it work. The weatherstrip I think I got figured out, and what you've said jives with what I figured. Good to have that confirmation. Much appreciated.
It seems the 60's or early 70's nylon timing sets all disintegrate. I have pulled apart a few of mid 70's 350 that had perfect looking timing sets. Don't know if they used better nylon or the age makes the difference. Those fuel pumps should work fine. I am using the Carter Muscle Car series pump.
My dad was a manufacturing engineer and worked a lot with plastics. One thing I remember him telling me is that all plastics begin to naturally degrade from the moment they're created. Some formulations degrade more slowly than others, but they all do. Considering the environment those nylon sprocket teeth live in, I'm surprised that they last as long as they do.
But definitely, developments in plastics formulation and processes have always been ongoing, so it's likely to see differences in durability from one year to the next (or especially several years).
I had a real Homer moment. For some reason I was thinking it was the crankshaft snout that the timing cover seal contacted rather than the harmonic balancer. Doh!
So after cleaning up the balancer a little, I'm seeing a couple of wear grooves in the hub. The lighter (inner one) I can't measure and can barely feel. The deeper one seems big enough to be concerned about. In that groove, the diameter is .007" smaller than the original hub diameter, so the wear is .0035" deep.
I'm contemplating whether to sleeve it or just replace the balancer entirely. How can I tell if it's slipped? I don't see any registration marks between the inner and outer ring. I'm also curious about whether this is the original balancer for this engine. I never see them with the stepped outer ring or the scallops like this one (although I haven't seen a lot of these either). Does this look correct for a 1969?
Eric:
There are no registration marks that I can see. I'm assuming the marks would be scribed into the steel, and not just painted on, and are hiding under some crud that I haven't cleaned off yet...
After cleaning up the face of the balancer, I still don't see any marks that would be used for registration. But nothing appears out of place or damaged, and the car was running well before I tore into it... I didn't put a timing light on it.
So the balancer cleaned up pretty well and I can't find anything wrong with it... but I still have a choice to make.
Should I sleeve the hub and put the 46 year old balancer back on (and is this asking for trouble?) or should I pick up a new one and enjoy the peace of mind? The time it would take later to tear things down again and replace it is worth the cost of a new one to me, but if this one will last another 20 years, I'd be happy to make it pretty and reuse it.
A second concern is that the outer diameter of this one is 7-1/8", and the largest replacement I can find is 6-5/8". That would put the timing mark on a new one an extra 1/4" away from the indicator, which would seem to make checking the timing rather tricky and prone to error.
What would you guys do?
I just replaced my 40yo balancer. It appeared in ok shape but the rubber was cracked where it extends out between the halves( yours looks like it might be too) as you noted its infinitely easier to replace now. A lot of parts I'm much more inclined to reuse as the offered replacements are not as good, this one tho I think rubber and manufacturing technology has improved enough in past 40 years to make the aftermarket replacement better than the original
I got the dayco pb1147n about $60 on rockauto. It seemed to represent a good stock style replacement vs the more expensive aftermarket ones and cheaper dorman ones.
The slightly smaller diameter doesn't seem to make much any difference.
I've had very good results with the sleeves on the balancer seal surface. I wouldn't hesitate to use one on this balancer.
As for the slippage of the outer ring, the only way to tell for sure is to install the balancer, rotate the motor so no. 1 is at TDC, and check the alignment of the timing mark on the tab. The reality is that this may have been off from the factory anyway. The balancers that I've had come apart were obviously bad - usually one end of the rubber ring starts to squeeze out from between the inner and outer metal rings. Unless this is a high-RPM race motor, I wouldn't hesitate to reuse that balancer.
RR, my reasoning was leading me right into line with your post until Joe shared his thoughts. I was even looking at that same Dayco balancer. Rock Auto's picture of it makes it look like a work of art in black and polished steel. Did it really look that nice? Yours looks great in blue, too, and it doesn't look like it would be hard to read the timing.
Joe, thanks so much for your input. I probably should have checked how well the marks lined up with the indicator before I pulled things apart. But I can't find any cracks or flaws in the balancer's rubber, and it's still very resilient. I'll take a much closer look at it, but based upon what you've said, I think it should be safe to reuse it. My only concern is how long it will remain that way.
I took a really, really close look at the rubber ring with a jeweler's loupe and found that it had a tremendous number of small axial cracks. They were pretty much continuous all around the circumference on both sides. These could only be caused by rotational stress and time. I actually expected to see a lot of radial cracks from shrinkage of the rubber, but found few. I believe that Joe is absolutely right, and all the cracks I saw in the rubber do not signal any imminent failure.
But...
Since $60 buys me a lot of peace of mind in this case, I bought the Dayco PB1147N balancer, which arrived yesterday. It is a really nice looking part for the money. Hopefully its fit will be as good as its looks.
It took just a little coaxing to get the old crankshaft sprocket loose. I ended up having to get a new, smaller gear puller, since the smallest one I had was a 6". I found a cheap 4" 3-jaw puller at the local farm supply, but I still needed to grind the heck out the ends of the arms to get them to fit behind the sprocket. A 3" puller might have been just right.
I also grabbed a throwaway 3/4-16 x 1-1/2" bolt to force the puller against, rather than using the original balancer bolt head. I drilled a small divot in the center of the bolt head to center the puller. After all that, just about 1 turn of the forcing screw and the sprocket was loose enough to slide right off. Seems like a lot of screwing around for no more than was necessary...
Before I removed the old chain and sprockets, I did turn the engine to line up the sprocket marks, even though I wasn't changing the timing or planning to degree the cam. The new Cloyes #9-1113 timing set slid on very easily. This is a really nicely-made set, with first-rate machining. Torquing the cam sprocket bolt and fuel pump eccentric at 65 ft-lbs rotated the assembly a little bit, but the relationship of the sprockets is the same as it originally was.
In cleaning up my original timing cover, which was a really greasy, rusty mess, I found some very deep pitting all around the water pump mounting/mating surface. Although I knew I could fill those pits with epoxy and smooth everything out, a few of these areas were deep enough that I could identify them from the back side, so I decided to replace the cover with a new one. I ordered a NOS cover from The Parts Place... I think after a discount coupon, it was about $65. But I was not happy with what I received. There were three large, raised stamping marks right where the lower portion of the water pump casting would sit. I measured the worst of them at 0.046" proud of the surrounding surface.
I worked in a stamping mill for a while, and I know these are defects, usually caused by debris under the platen or die. The Parts Place staff was very helpful when I contacted them. They even checked the rest of their inventory and found that their entire stock was like this. They and their engine builder did not think this was a problem. I, on the other hand, thought it was, since it would affect the angle and alignment of the water pump pulley, not to mention the sealing of the pump to the cover... and my original cover did not have any such 'features'. Considering that my pump and cover were already leaking, I opted to send this cover back. Parts Place was excellent throughout, and I have to give them credit for resolving things.
Fusicks had a cover that was slightly more expensive, but still worth it to my peace of mind. That cover should be delivered today. Hopefully it will not have the same issues the one from Parts Place had, or I'll also be testing Fusick's customer service...
Last edited by Leadfoot; December 11th, 2015 at 03:37 AM.
Reason: Spelling
The new fuel pump is installed, with new hoses to the hard lines. The fuel pump selection posed a whole host of new issues, since the outlet of the new pump is different from the one I removed. I also wanted to replace the hard line from the pump to the carb, since the existing line was nasty looking and was almost collapsed at the 90 degree bends. I think I got all that worked out, and I just need to get a 90-degree adapter for the fuel pump outlet. This is the NAPA/Airtex #40523 fuel pump. The pump lever has plenty of clearance to the timing chain; I was a little concerned about that, but it seems just fine.
As long as I was there, I pulled the old aluminum water neck, cleaned it all up and gave it a new coat of paint. As I understand it, Olds service departments routinely replaced the aluminum outlets with cast iron ones, since the aluminum ones were prone to corrosion. There was a fair bit of pitting on the mating surface, but it cleaned up just fine.
I used Seymour Olds Gold engine paint, which I threw in with my last OPGI order. Seems to be a pretty good color match, although maybe a little more glossy than the original engine paint. None of the local auto parts stores I checked had anything even remotely close.
Reinstalled with a new 195 degree thermostat and gasket. Since the ends of the water neck attachment bolts are actually in the water jacket, I replaced them with stainless bolts. The old ones were pretty badly corroded and not easily removed. Stainless fasteners are relatively cheap these days, anyway.
Actually, this might have been a good time to think about replacing my rusty intake manifold with a nice shiny new one...
Received the new timing cover from Fusick. This one was perfectly smooth and flat, and even 100% powder coated (black). I lightly attached the new FlowKooler water pump, did some masking, and then sprayed everything with the same Seymour Olds gold engine paint.
The new fuel pump is installed, with new hoses to the hard lines. The fuel pump selection posed a whole host of new issues, since the outlet of the new pump is different from the one I removed. I also wanted to replace the hard line from the pump to the carb, since the existing line was nasty looking and was almost collapsed at the 90 degree bends. I think I got all that worked out, and I just need to get a 90-degree adapter for the fuel pump outlet. This is the NAPA/Airtex #40523 fuel pump. The pump lever has plenty of clearance to the timing chain; I was a little concerned about that, but it seems just fine.
Don't forget to slip on your oil slinger over the crank before you button
up the timing cover. Ask me how I know, what a pita. Looks good!
With the paint almost dry and the water pump removed, I had a little bit of cleaning up where paint crept in between the parts, but removing that was not a big deal. I did it this way because I really didn't want extra paint behind the water pump, where it might eventually flake off and end up in the cooling system. It was also much easier to paint the two parts at the same time. Painting the heads of the bolts at the same time was a nice bonus.
Don't forget to slip on your oil slinger over the crank before you button
up the timing cover. Ask me how I know, what a pita. Looks good!
Good point, Tru-Blue. I'm worried that I'll forget something stupid like that, with parts spread out all over the garage. I think I'll go ahead and slip that oil slinger on now just as a reminder...
Got the new shaft seal installed. Does it look like it's at the correct depth?
Seems like there's a lot of available leeway in the depth (I could have driven it in another 1/8"), and I just drove it in until the seal edges were in full contact with the cover. I used a really thin smear of RTV just as a little insurance. Probably unnecessary, but I did it anyway.
November 7th, 2015, 03:04 AM
