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This part still has me a little freaked out. The new front oil pan seal compared to the completely and permanently compressed old one. You can't see it in this photo, but the mating surface of the old seal has gone completely flat, while the new one is V-shaped. No wonder I had oil seeping all over the front of the engine. Considering how much I'll need to compress this seal and how little I was able to drop the oil pan, I'm not looking forward to putting the cover back on. I may need to talk myself into this one for a few days while the paint finishes curing.
Should I apply any sealant between the seal and the cover, or is it ok to just put it in place dry? It appears that the original seal was installed dry.
I dont think a fleck of paint would do anything at all in your cooling system, but it would sure add a few years to the timing cover before it corroded.
JMO
This part still has me a little freaked out. The new front oil pan seal compared to the completely and permanently compressed old one. You can't see it in this photo, but the mating surface of the old seal has gone completely flat, while the new one is V-shaped. No wonder I had oil seeping all over the front of the engine. Considering how much I'll need to compress this seal and how little I was able to drop the oil pan, I'm not looking forward to putting the cover back on. I may need to talk myself into this one for a few days while the paint finishes curing.
Should I apply any sealant between the seal and the cover, or is it ok to just put it in place dry? It appears that the original seal was installed dry.
Unbolt as many of the pan rail bolts as you can get to (even past the engine mount) to lower pan in front.
Bolt the water pump onto the cover using the 4 small bolts. This will give you some leverage, and using a small prybar to pull the pan down, coax it in. Better to have a friend prying on the pan, but I have done this myself. Make sure ALL GASKET and RUBBER sealing surfaces are coated with INDIAN HEAD sealer before you tighten. It is your friend.
Okay here are a couple of thoughts of mine after reading this thread. Water neck corrosion is because not only water minerals over time iron intakes also help this condition. Solution not high cost Have it powder coated.Same with front cover That is a solution that should last a long time. Spray paint isn't hard enough to do anything.JMO
Thanks for the tips, guys. Warhead, are you talking about the Indian Head gasket shellac? I have some of that, but I've only ever used it to coat paper or cork gaskets. I can see where having the extra meat of the water pump installed would provide some extra heft and stiffness while wrestling with the cover. But I was thinking it would make things more awkward, not to mention heavy. I was planning on picking up some short 5/16 and 3/8 bolts to fasten the cover until the cover gasket sealers cured, and then installing the water pump later, but I may need to rethink that.
Okay here are a couple of thoughts of mine after reading this thread. Water neck corrosion is because not only water minerals over time iron intakes also help this condition. Solution not high cost Have it powder coated.Same with front cover That is a solution that should last a long time. Spray paint isn't hard enough to do anything.JMO
Good thoughts. I'm not sure how much galvanic reaction occurs between the cast iron intake and the aluminum water neck since they're separated by the gasket, but I'm sure it's still a factor. The inside of my water neck was still surprisingly very smooth and clean. All of the noteworthy corrosion I found on it was at the base (mating surface), which was easily dealt with by resurfacing it on flat sandpaper. As I recall, the reason given for Olds shops changing out the aluminum water necks with cast iron ones was because of warping issues, but I haven't yet gotten my head fully wrapped around that one.
I agree, rattle can paint leaves a lot to be desired compared to powdercoating. But the local powdercoating shop has a minimum fee of $250 plus the paint cost, which I can't justify. At least the new timing cover came completely powdercoated, which gave me a warm fuzzy feeling...
looks like your doing a great job. I am doing the same thing right now also. I did my timing chain last sunday! I pulled the engine and trans. I am doing a full restoration and the front clip is off so its very easy to just pull it out and replace all the gaskets. MAW right! I purchased the east wood ceramic gold to do mine. I couldn't find any good choices in a rattle can and I have a spray gun. I am hoping its a nice as I have heard it is. keep it up! I will be following along!
Thanks, bigin. I'm having to take my time with this and work around the weather and a busy schedule, but I'll get it wrapped up by spring. I wish I could have just pulled the engine to do all of this... but if I did, I'm sure I'd end up tearing the engine all the way down and rebuilding it (big MAW), which it really doesn't require. So it won't all be as pretty as I'd like, but it should still be a big improvement.
Good thoughts. I'm not sure how much galvanic reaction occurs between the cast iron intake and the aluminum water neck since they're separated by the gasket, but I'm sure it's still a factor. The inside of my water neck was still surprisingly very smooth and clean. All of the noteworthy corrosion I found on it was at the base (mating surface), which was easily dealt with by resurfacing it on flat sandpaper. As I recall, the reason given for Olds shops changing out the aluminum water necks with cast iron ones was because of warping issues, but I haven't yet gotten my head fully wrapped around that one.
I agree, rattle can paint leaves a lot to be desired compared to powdercoating. But the local powdercoating shop has a minimum fee of $250 plus the paint cost, which I can't justify. At least the new timing cover came completely powdercoated, which gave me a warm fuzzy feeling...
LOL warping as a reason to use cast iron!Nonsense i have been using a aluminum one since 2001 never warped. On every aluminum one i have seen which is around 10/12 all had corrosion on neck and at the base.Leads me to think chemical reaction going on at base and with antifreeze chemicals as well as water. JMO I base this on working with corrosion on aircraft for 26 years and repairing them because of this condition.
Thanks, bigin. I'm having to take my time with this and work around the weather and a busy schedule, but I'll get it wrapped up by spring. I wish I could have just pulled the engine to do all of this... but if I did, I'm sure I'd end up tearing the engine all the way down and rebuilding it (big MAW), which it really doesn't require. So it won't all be as pretty as I'd like, but it should still be a big improvement.
It would be nice to see your handy work when you are reworking.I myself have never done what you are doing. I did the maws and removed engine and yep lead to total tear down!LOL
You said the water pump was a 1973 version, which would mean it has a smaller inlet hose nipple than the original '69 version (1968-1970 had 2" diameter and 1971 and later were 1.75" diameter). Have you verified your new water pump has the correct size hose nipple to match your lower hose and radiator outlet? What I mean is, if you bought one for a 1969 application it will be different than the 1973 application that you removed.
Wow, Kenneth, you are exactly right. I bought new hoses for a '69 and noted that the new lower hose was larger than my old water pump's 1-3/4" inlet... but I never made the connection that you pointed out. I thought I'd just need to find a different lower hose or adapt the inlet end. When I bought the new ('69) water pump, I checked to make sure the inlet was 2" (same as the new hose end), which it is. I never knew that there was a 1971 model year change, but that explains everything... I was going by parts manuals and casting numbers to determine whether the old water pump was original, and your info helps confirm what I found... that it was not the original pump.
Would 1969 lower hoses have had an internal spring? My hose didn't, and I haven't been able to find one or anything to tell me if it was supposed to have one.
LOL warping as a reason to use cast iron!Nonsense i have been using a aluminum one since 2001 never warped. On every aluminum one i have seen which is around 10/12 all had corrosion on neck and at the base.Leads me to think chemical reaction going on at base and with antifreeze chemicals as well as water. JMO I base this on working with corrosion on aircraft for 26 years and repairing them because of this condition.
I think you're right, and I can't remember where I read about the change. Seems like it was somewhere on Oldsmobility, but it may have been conjecture or misinformation. Corrosion seems to me to be the logical reason for the change. The bolts, after all, connect the two different metals so regardless of the gasket, they are still electrically connected, which allows galvanic reaction to occur... plus, the coolant water connects them anyway.
In the end, nothing beats first hand experience with stuff like this. Do you think I should have replaced the pot metal water neck with an iron one? I never looked to see if they are even available.
I think you're right, and I can't remember where I read about the change. Seems like it was somewhere on Oldsmobility, but it may have been conjecture or misinformation. Corrosion seems to me to be the logical reason for the change. The bolts, after all, connect the two different metals so regardless of the gasket, they are still electrically connected, which allows galvanic reaction to occur... plus, the coolant water connects them anyway.
In the end, nothing beats first hand experience with stuff like this. Do you think I should have replaced the pot metal water neck with an iron one? I never looked to see if they are even available.
No i wouldn't change to iron unless the pot metal one leaks. I prefer the pot metal one over the iron. JMO Keep up the good work More pictures please when you get time on your progress. Have a good day.
The oil pan was a greasy mess. The driver's side, which has already been cleaned here, was actually much worse than this. I've loosened the front 4 oil pan rail bolts on each side. With a ratcheting box wrench, even the 4th bolt wasn't difficult to get onto. But I doubt that I could reach the next ones without lifting the engine. Other than this front corner of the pan rail being a little bent, I didn't find any dents or damage to the pan.
It cleaned up pretty well, and I got it cleaned wherever I could reach, even where I couldn't see. A little surface rust, though. Maybe I'll spray some paint on it after I get things closed back up, but that's probably just a waste of paint.
I know a lot of you guys like strong detergents and even oven cleaner for degreasing, but I've never found anything to work better than plain old mineral spirits. It's cheap, easy to use, doesn't bother the old paint, doesn't need any rinsing, and I don't have to worry about grease-laden lye dripping on me while I'm on my back under the car.
I'm anxious to get the front of the engine closed back up, but I've been dreading dealing with the front cover and pan seal. I really don't want to screw this up and have it still seeping oil everywhere. With those front bolts loosened, I pried the corners of the pan from the block as much as I could and slid in some wood wedges to hold it there.
Even so, I managed almost no clearance. I know the pan gasket is stuck and helping to hold the pan to the block, and I'm trying to do this without damaging that gasket. I did fit the new rubber pan/timing cover gasket in place, and even with the gasket ears still intact, it does fit, but I don't think I have enough clearance yet to slide it into place after installing it on the cover. I came up with a possible solution, which I'll try today, and hopefully be able to get things closed up.
A few days ago, Joe Padavano posted a cool way to get the cover back on easily by removing one of the steel dowel pins, but mine are both stuck tight.
I asked a mechanic friend who is older than I who used to do these when he was younger. He swears they never dropped the pan but he couldn't remember if they used any tricks to get the cover back on. He remembers them as not being that bad. He still sometimes works on cars like these at the shop he is at now but they haven't done an Olds timing chain in years.
Trimming the seal is definitely one of the tricks with a lot of RTV. I may be doing a cam swap in car this Summer. If I can get both dowels out and trim the seal, it would be nice to not touch the oil pan at all.
In order to pull the oil pan further from the block without damaging the old pan gaskets or anything else, I decided to make a simple tool. Everything I used I had lying around the shop, so the cost was $0. I started with a piece of scrap wood, which I scribed to the shape of the front curve in the oil pan. I used the old timing cover to trace the curve. Before bandsawing the profile, I drilled the piece (centered in the edge) and installed a 1/4"-20 threaded insert.
After cutting the radius, I cut a piece of 1/4-20 threaded rod, threaded it into the insert and added a nylon-capped swivel clamp tip. I don't remember where I got those clamp tips; I've had them forever, and use them to make guitar-building clamps. For no more than this tool was going to do, there were lots of other options, but this was perfect for what I needed.
This is the old timing cover, with the old shaft seal placed just for checking for the correct overall length of the threaded rod. The wall of the harmonic balancer hub is 3/16" thick, so this was just about perfect to hit the end of the crankshaft.
I added a jamb nut to make extending the threaded rod a little easier. I really didn't have to apply much pressure with this, and easily got the pan pulled another .10" (or nearly so) from the block. It definitely wasn't enough pressure to affect the crank shaft or the bearings (if I was at all concerned about that, I would have figured out a way to press against the block itself). Then I just lightly tapped my wedges in snug and removed the forcing tool. Since I didn't need to hammer in the wedges, there was no risk of damage to the old pan gasket.
The new rubber seal, ears and all, fit into place easily now. Gaining the extra space also gave me the opportunity to scrape and clean all of the old gasket, oil, and grease from the corners of the pan and block. I think after I took this photo, I actually did open the gap just slightly more... but in any case, I was able to get both the pan and block surfaces perfectly smooth and clean and ready for sealing.
Ultimately, I did have to trim the seal ears just ever-so-slightly. The new seal needs so much compression when reinstalling the cover that it's just not worth the fighting to get that seal compressed while fitting those floppy little ear ends into the gaps. I trimmed off about 1/16" from the ends and used RTV to fill the little gaps. I also found that it was much easier, after getting the 3/8" cover bolts started, to tighten them from underneath the car. As I tightened them, the rubber seal wanted to hang up against the front rim of the oil pan, so I used a dull old flat-blade screwdriver to compress the seal and keep it sliding into place while tightening the bolts.
The most surprising thing was that with the cover fully tightened into place, the new seal was pushing so hard against the oil pan that my wood wedges practically fell out by themselves. Before I tightened the pan rail bolts, I applied RTV to all the gaps I could find. I got a nice even squeeze-out when I tightened the bolts, so I am 100% confident that everything is sealed.
Oh. I used Permatex High-Tack on the cover gasket (love that stuff), and I DID remember to reinstall the oil slinger (Thank you, thank you Tru-Blue 442!) before putting the cover back on. I used some short bolts with fiber washers in place of the 5/16" water pump bolts and studs, and will replace those when I install the water pump. I left those bolts torqued at 20 ft-lbs for now.
I am extremely pleased to have this job out of the way.
Last edited by Leadfoot; December 14th, 2015 at 05:41 AM.
Reason: spelling
Bolting on the new water pump was a piece of cake. I used Permatex High-Tack on both sides of the gasket. I'm not crazy about the red squeezout around the gasket, but removing the excess requires lacquer thinner, which would also remove any of the paint it touches, so I'll just leave it alone.
I used a new bolt and stud set from Inline Tube. I know the originals were painted gold to some degree, but I left all but the 1/4" pump to cover bolts with just the black phosphate coating. I could go back and paint the bolt heads, but I kind of like them like this.
The oil fill tube is looking worse with every thing I do. I'm wishing I would have cleaned it up and repainted it earlier, but it's just going to have to wait. The paint that's still on it is actually flaking off, so it's going to require some interesting work to get it looking good again. I have no plans to remove it, so it's going to have to be freshened up in place.
In this pic, the new gold paint looks like it's not a very good match to the original paint, but it's mostly a combination of lighting and the original paint being faded and dull. In person, it's actually a pretty good match.
For installing the harmonic balancer I robbed my stash of oddball parts and picked up a 6" length of 3/4"-16 threaded rod and some extra washers. Here is the rod fully threaded into the crank snout. Plenty of extra length there.
The factory service manual (at least I think that's where I saw this) says to apply sealer to the inside surface of the balancer bore and keyway, so I smeared on a thin layer of RTV. The outer surface of the balancer hub got a light coating of assembly lube.
New balancer almost into place. I was very careful to not touch the threaded rod as I slid the balancer onto the crank shaft. I doubted that I could cause any damage if I did, but I also didn't want RTV sealer all over the threaded rod.
A stack of washers (I think I used about 10 in addition to the original thick washer), a thrust bearing and a nut.
I was pretty amazed at how easily the new balancer installed. I would not have needed the thrust bearing at all. After running the nut down, it took only a few easy turns of the nut to seat the balancer. It was almost too easy -- so much so that I was sure I had done something wrong...
Last edited by Leadfoot; December 23rd, 2015 at 04:17 AM.
Reason: spelling
I guess I missed that about RTV on the inside of the balancer. I always just
coat the the inside and the snout of the crank with a little motor oil, smack it
a few times with a rubber mallet and pull it on down with the bolt and an impact.
I think that would have worked too, lol. I think the idea behind the RTV is just to help prevent any oil seepage around the keyway, but I think it's a pretty hit-or-miss proposition.
All back together. I used the air impact wrench on the crankshaft bolt. I think that torques to about 600 ft-lbs at 90 psi, so I expect it will stay put.
Since I still have a lot to do, I didn't turn start or turn the engine over, but it all looks good to me.
I'm still waiting for new clamps for the water pump bypass hose and heater hose, so for now those will wait.
Next is to work around the power steering pump and see what I can do there.
Yeah, the fit is pretty tight. I have never had a problem with any seepage,
and have done a bunch of them over the years. Now get back in the garage
and button it up! Time for a cruise. You can fire it like it sits to make sure it
runs ok, just not for any length of time as to not overheat it.
Last edited by tru-blue 442; December 23rd, 2015 at 04:32 AM.
I've been resisting the urge to start the engine until I'm further along with things... but it would be nice to have the reassurance that it still runs and doesn't drip oil or gas. I think I'll reconnect the battery and give it a try this weekend.
Meanwhile, since the holidays are suddenly upon me, it's on to refurbishing the fan and air cleaner housing. My fan was looking a little sad (and really dirty), so I decided to clean it and freshen it up.
Before:
Dirt, rusty, and greasy, but otherwise OK.
At least it's original...
Or at least I think it is. Maybe not. The factory manual tells me that the -OU suffix on the fan clutch part number is the standard-duty clutch. The heavy-duty clutch would have a -OW suffix (and maybe extra cooling fins). I have no idea if this car originally had the heavy-duty cooling system (Y72 option). I think the fan and water pump would say yes, while the radiator top plate, what was left of the lower saddles, and the fan clutch would say no.
In trying to decide whether to replace the clutch, which seems to work as it should, I found documents by 4 Seasons and others that state if the fan pitch is less than 2-1/2", a standard-duty clutch would be used. My fan pitch is 2". The clutch shaft does rotate smoothly, there was no evidence of the damping fluid leaking, and I didn't have any overheating issues, so I think I'll re-use this clutch. And even though I'm replacing the radiator with a new 4-row equivalent to the HD system radiator and have replaced the water pump with a high-flow pump, I'm not required to make everything else HD. It's easy enough to change the clutch later if I decide to. So it's on to the cleanup...
December 6th, 2015, 06:57 AM
