GINCSC

Hey guys,

I have been restoring a 71 convertible with 350/th350, A/C, power brakes and cloning it to look like a 442.

Looks great but just developed a knock and loss of power so back in the shop it goes. When I bought it I was told and have paperwork that it was rebuilt 20k miles ago. From the noise and loss of power it looks like a rebuild. I'm about tapped out now on funds so need to get the most bang for the buck.

I want an engine with good hp(300hp+) that can go to shows, daily driver and cross country on pump gas. I currently have a Holley 650, Performer intake, new Taylor HEI, OEM exhuast manif, new alt, new A/C.

I must have a shop do the work due to my schedule and experience.

Can a few of you GURU's give me some recipes for a good engine build with lots of specifics. I really could use the help!!!

Some of the things I've thought about and keep it to a 4k budget with labor.
BERNARD MONDELLO / PROCOMP COMPLETE OLDS OLDSMOBILE ALUMINUM 350-403-455 HEADS what are the issues with using these ? I did read that I would need the RPM intake instead of the performer. How much machining do they both need to use them on a 350 SBO?

what pistons?
what cam?
what rocker arms?
what push rods?
what else will I need to replace


Takes for the help,
Gary

GINCSC

30 views and no opinions....... come on guys help a brother out

Here's what I'm working on

cutlassefi

I think some are tired of the same old questions.
Your best bet would be to do a search on small block builds. I'm confident you'll find a plethora of information.

coppercutlass

Im curious as to how bad your knock is. have you really zeroed it in ? Why not take the engine apart and see what the cause was., measure the clearances. see what you can salvage . just because it has a knock does not mean the whole engine is junk. if your heads are in good shape there is no reason why you shoudlnt be able to hit your goals with a good set of iron heads with minimal work assuming yours are in good shape. Making the engine work is one thing but the whole combination has to work together. This means make sure you have a gear you really like . Personally for the street a 3.42 is good and a 2400 stall packs a good off the line punch. To tell you which cam you should take into consideration you will need to give more info such as gear converter compression ratio you plan on running. For rockers arms the roller tips are a pretty good bang for the buck from comp . Now for pistons i would say it comes to prefrence I have a set of speed pro forged flat tops in my 355 right now ., but the engine im building right now im using the probes which are lighter and have a tighter ring pack and cost a little more but the speed pro's come up slightly used for a good price occasionally . What you are asking is like someone asking what size shoe they need by just looking at their feet. Its not that hard to put together a nice combination but it does take some careful thinking and planning.

GINCSC

Cooper,
My guy is pulling the motor out as we speak and I'm going over there this afternoon to take a look. He has told me that number 7 cylinder exhaust valve was leaking and the pistons look like they were over heated at some point. He also said the cylinder walls look slightly scratched. He thinks the noise was a piston skirt but still doing investigation. So I told him to pull it and I would come look at it. I'm a intelligent novice at best and don't have the knowledge like you guys do to rebuild it myself or the tools needed.
I have been reading CO posted since January and trying to jog my memory from 25 years ago when I worked on my own cars. I have read a lot of your post as well as Cutlassefi and would really like your two guys input once we start the rebuild.

thanks for the input
Gary

GINCSC

Cooper
I see your on Face book as well

captjim

If I was building a 300 HP reliable street SBO starting with your engine, and wanted to keep it relatively simple, I would do the following;
Speed Pro 6 cc pistons, stock rods re sized with ARP bolts
Street port job and good valve job on your heads, CR should be mid-high 9.xx to 1
Cam in the 215 @ .050 and .500 neighborhood
RPM intake and carb of choice.
Headers and good exhaust system
Quality torque converter around 2600 stall.

If I was going to build a stout SBO, i would spend the extra $ on a stroker, but that might not be your best choice given your budget and experience level.

GINCSC

Captjim,
Thanks that's the input I was looking for. Could you suggest some part numbers or brands?

thanks for the help Jim

GINCSC

more info
I don't know what converter I have but I'm sure its just a stock stall
I did have a 3.42 gear put in the rear

captjim

pistons L2321F30 http://www.jegs.com/i/Sealed-Power/8...oductId=755706

RPM intake 7111 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ed...ake/oldsmobile

I would get Mark to grind you a custom cam

coppercutlass

Captjim pretty much hit the nail on the head. THE most reliable and fun combo I had was my old high 13 sec. Combo. It was enough to have alittle fun at the track and it idled like stock and didn't need a lot of stall or gear and it ran on 87 octane . My current combo has 3.73's , 3000 stall 10 to 1 compression so I need 93 octane. My current set up is proving to be pretty reliable though .,put 100 miles on it last Saturday and everything worked good but its street manners are borderline between making a fun cruiser and a bit of a hand full. If I wasn't stuck with the parts I have now with the current engine I'm working on I would build a stout 9.25 to 1 keep it mild and spray nitrous at it . But I'm stuck making it a n/a 10 to 1 engine due to what I have and what I started with

GINCSC

[QUOTE=captjim;835247]If I was building a 300 HP reliable street SBO starting with your engine, and wanted to keep it relatively simple, I would do the following;
Speed Pro 6 cc pistons, stock rods re sized with ARP bolts
Street port job and good valve job on your heads, CR should be mid-high 9.xx to 1
Cam in the 215 @ .050 and .500 neighborhood
RPM intake and carb of choice.
Headers and good exhaust system
Quality torque converter around 2600 stall.

If I was going to build a stout SBO, i would spend the extra $ on a stroker, but that might not be your best choice given your budget and experience level.[/QUOT

What carb would you do? and what cfm 650 or 750?
would you use bernard modello procomp heads for $1100 or use the iron heads?
Would you use the factory rockers or something else?

captjim

[QUOTE=GINCSC;835304]I don't think you will be able to use any aluminum heads and get in at your budget. Use the factory rockers if you can, if not go with Mark's recommendation. I would use a 750 carb, a Q-jet if you plan on driving cross country and/or if you don't want to do some tuning.

70cutty

Here is my SBO build from couple of years ago. it's almost exactly what captjim was talking about.

Pistons are SpeedPro 6cc dish .010 in the block
Reconditioned rods, crank turned and chamfered.
Heads are #6, big block Ferrea valves, 4 angle valve job, fully ported, crossover plugged, exhaust divider welder, milled .030, Lunati springs, Comp roller rockers.
Camshaft Lunati custom grind (thank you Mark - Cutlassefi it sounds great runs even better, just what I wanted)
225/231@.050, with .512/.517 lift. 108 LSA, advanced 3 degrees.
Performer RPM, milled and port matched, powder coated black .
Hughes 2500 stall torque converter.
Hooker Ceramic Coated headers.
MSD Ready to Run Distributor
Street Avenger 670cfm carb

GINCSC

Thanks Cutty thats looks sweet
can I ask how much did you spend on the heads appox
which street avenger did you get. was it this one
http://www.jegs.com/i/Holley/510/0-8...FQenaQodWFkL1Q

have you had it on a dyno? curious about the hp and tq

ELY442

Did that cam produced enough vacuum for the power brakes?

GINCSC

great question. I have a/c and power brakes

70cutty

The cam produced enough vacuum for power brakes and it has a very nice sound to it.

Couldn't tell you about the price for the heads, it was a trade services type of deal with the machine shop.

The street avenger was just a regular not Ultra.

The engine ran great for a short period of time before I yanked it out and replaced it with a 463 that Mark built for me. Never made it to the dyno.

Now it's sitting under the work bench and waiting for a 66-67 candidate that's in need of a heart transplant.

GINCSC

Guys,

Would it be less expensive to go with the procomp heads vs having all the machining done on the iron heads? from what I have read the iron heads will need a lot of work to make them flow.

What all is involved in using the procomp heads? I have read that they need to be milled down for the correct CC but is there any other issues like a/c or alt, or valve covers? I did read that you can't use a mech fuel pump. Can someone explaine why please.

captjim

I am an advocate of using the Pro Comp heads, but your budget simply does not allow for it. Milling, port matching, valve train, and fuel system costs will put you over. You can have $1000 into your heads and get where you want to be.

GINCSC

Lets say I stretch the budget to 5K. what gains would I have and still keep a powerful car with good street manners?
can you still explain what all is involved with the procomp heads. pros and cons. and whats up with the fuel pump

70cutty

X2.
What's your goal?? To achieve 300HP, like you mentioned in your first post, you don't need Procomp's.
If you want more power than that, just build a 455.

GINCSC

here's what I'm dealing with now
it's hard to see in the pic but the walls of a couple of cylinders have scratch marks and looks like they have been burning oil.

GINCSC

I would say the goal is to not waste money but get the most out of the engine I have and keep it streetable with good manners.

I have thought about the 455 but I need to let him get started and get it back on the street. I have looked around here for a 455 but haven't had any luck.
I was going to drive it for a year with the 350/th350 and do the engine next year. But now the 350 has pushed me to deal with it now. I have spent a ton of money getting it to this point and want to enjoy it. So I'm ok with keeping the 350 and spending a little to make it what I want.

Trying to investigate all options for this engine and not make any cheep skape decisions. So if putting an extra 750-1000 to get the best result and not wish I did something different at the end that's what I want to do.

I said 300hp because if the engine had 180 from the factory I should feel a hell of a difference if it had 300hp. All of us know that we can always use more hp. If 750-1000 gets me 50hp then maybe..... decisions decisions

boese1978

aside from the milling for correct CR, The end of the head needs to be clearanced so the fuel pump clears. You can see in the second pic what was needed for my particular pump. The PC heads hang off the end of the block about 1/2 inch because it is a SBO. If you went roller rockers you would need to use stouter springs then what come with the PC's.

GINCSC

I see what you mean about the 1/2 inch over and fuel pump clearance.

Thank you for clearing that up for me Boese1978

Nice pics

GINCSC

Ok if I stick with the iron heads should I use the bigger valves? or stick with the OEM size? Can you suggest a brand or part numbers.

coppercutlass

Stock size should be fine for your build as far as valve goes but there is plenty of power to be gained just by going to a bigger valve and open the bowls under the valve . If the budget allows I would go for bigger valves atleast on the intake.

GINCSC

Thanks Copper,
can you suggest some

GINCSC

Copper,
What rings for these pistons would you use?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sl...ake/oldsmobile

coppercutlass

Ferrea are good that's what's on my #6 that's on my 355 now . You can keep the stock exhaust the only issue will the the stem heights. After opening the seat for the bigger valve it might sit higher than stock. But if you are running adjustable valve train then it can be as simple as using the proper length pushrod for the intake side and exhaust side. Since the heights on those 2 might be diffrent from each other . Also if you are runing adjustable valve train mill the rocker pads . The diffrence between me getting a perfect pattern on my valve stems and an ok one was about .030 but since my pads where not milled I can't lash the valves without binding up the rocker on the studs .

coppercutlass

I would use total seal or the speed pro rings .

GINCSC

how about lifters?

coppercutlass

I have never wiped out a cam so I can only go based on what's been good for me . But comp cams lifters have worked for me and some old trw lifters I bought at a swap meet . I don't think there is too many companies who actually make lifters .

GINCSC

$280.99 EldeRPM 7111 intake
$404.99 Speed pro L2321F30 pistons
$156.97 Comp magnum roller tip rockers 1442-16
$44.97 Comp double roller timing set 2113
$89.90 Arp head bolt kit 180-3600
$360.79 Edelb 1411 750 cfm carb 350-1411
or
$421.95 Holley avenger 670 cfm 0-80670
$218.99 Howards cam 225/231@.050 512/517 108LS OR custom grind from Mark
$187.50 high torgue starer tci 260-455
$35.79 acdelco hd water pump

opinions or additions??

coppercutlass

Go with the holley 3310 carb 750 . its the same price but much easier to work with.
How much compression do you plan on running . I ran a howards 512/512 227/234 i think and it was awesome on the street . i have been running the same autozone starter for the last 5 years you can get a good rebuilt one from napa for much less just get the HD starter.

here is what that howards cam sounded like . just under 10 to 1 compression.
Sadly it ate my cam bearings but i sent the cam out it got fixed i put new bearings in the block cleaned it and went with a lunati cam . I plan on running the howards on the new build the same one that got repaired.

GINCSC

That sounds nice. thanks for the carb tip I'll take a look at it.

olds 307 and 403

Go with Mark's cam suggestion and look at the Street Demon 750, based off the Thermoquad but all new 3 barrel castings with improvements.

GINCSC

Thanks I'll take a look at the street demon. I have read some opinions that a 750 is to big for a 350 and some say it's perfect. Can some of you give some clarification to this.

Thanks

GINCSC

Mark can you give me a recommendation for a cam and torque converter with the above specs assuming that we can be at 9.5 to 1 with a 2400 or so stall. Also if I got you to grind the cam what is the turn around time.