USAF72Cutlass

New to the Forums and have been digging in multiple times daily! I just picked up a 1972 Cutlass S with a 350/350 for $2k! The body is pretty good, the previous owner started working on it. However, the engine started knocking. The owner before him said it had a fresh rebuild (I would disagree). Brought it home, pulled the chrome, removed the nasty vinyl top to inspect under (great condition). Interior is absolutely gorgeous for being all original. Now onto my issue...it only knocks after a bit, and increases volume as speed with RPM's. I have pulled the engine/transmission and currently have the engine on a stand. I just ordered new main bearings as well as rod bearings and a rebuild gasket kit. Looking in the cam hole on the top of the block the cam is def not newer. However, at this point I am looking to get it back to good running shape. I will do a top end rebuild winter 2015 (Cam, Intake, Carb). Just making sure I am on the right track as this is my first engine pull. I have done a top end before on my 80 Z28, but never this much. I have yet to pull the heads and I am not sure if I actually need to. Hoping for some guidance. Thanks in advance...

oldcutlass

Welcome to the site, nice car. At this point you won't know whats going on until you pull the crank and pistons. You might also take a look at all the lifters, make sure they go back in the same bores as they were removed if you don't replace the cam and lifters. Also It might be prudent to pop the timing cover and inspect the timing set.

Oldsmaniac

You need to have the crank turned and the rod big ends trued to be sure all is well with the new bearings unless you can measure both to see what you have.

Lars

Stop... take a day or 2 to read this entire thred.


https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...ing-motor.html

USAF72Cutlass

Definitely going to read this while vacationing this weekend. I am quite a ways in already just to let you all know. Currently the engine is out and completely broken down to the block and pistons/rods. Will try to post pictures when I get to a computer.

Lars

Sounds good, there's some bs-ing in there, stick with it till the good stuff comes around. The 72 has about the worst pistons for compression.

USAF72Cutlass

So I just got back from our little weekend get away...still reading the recommended post. When I got home my new parts were waiting on the porch. Here's the problem held the main bearings I ordered from Jegs up to the old ones, the oil holes do not line up (not in the center) and are not as wide as the ones in there. Obviously not the right ones. I double checked my order and now I am wondering if I have the wrong year. I did some research but now I am not sure in the results. Block # 395558 2 (above the timing chain cover) with 5A heads (with a 3317 stamped on it as well). B 14 is stamped under the timing chain cover. Then on the back of the block near the distributor is a 6 with a 75 under it. Before I get any further and reorder new main bearings can somebody please help me onto the right track for ordering parts as far as the year.

Lars

you have a standard 68-76 350 block, but the heads are for a 307. First things first... does anything need machining? like your crank need to be turned, or block boring? On the back of your old bearings there is some stamping marks, what do they say? stop buying stuff until you know egzactly what you have. we need picts of everything.


1 how did the motor run before you pulled it?
2 we need pics of the top of the pistons semi clean, are they all the same? did you mark them before you pulled them out?
3 is there big "N" on the crank?
4 on the back of the rod bearings there should be some markings, what are they?
5 pict of the harmonic balancer.
6 theres a stamp pad on the drivers side of the block neer the front just under the head surphase or under the deck, whats the stamp numbers?
the most important question is are you ready to spend $2000 on this project?

USAF72Cutlass

1- It ran strong just had a loud knock that increased with RPM and wasn't always present.
2- I have not yet removed the piston nor plan to remove them all just a few to get the Crank back in. They all appear to be in good shape, relatively clean and all matching.
3- Yes, there is a Big "N" on the crank as well as a "75" and the numbers 393654 I believe.
4- Rod bearings have 3045APA STD stamped on them (photos to follow) Two of them were eaten away really bad (I assume the cause of the RPM knock)
5- Photos of the Harmonic Balancer to follow.
6- I cannot find any other number on the block other than those I posted photos of in yesterday's post. I have looked high and low.
Most important question...over time yes I plan to put a lot into this classic. For now I want to get it running properly and invest much more over time. I am not looking to build a muscle motor out of this one. I hope to pic up another 350 block and build a real muscle to swap in when finished.

m371961

If you are this far into it you should measure all journals and bores. At the least use plasti-guage to check bearing clearances when reassembling. And you did number each rod and read the CSM engine section?
What did the bearing faces look like? The crank where the bad bearings were located?
Open the old filter, does it have any magnetic metal shavings? Did you test oil pressure when running?

USAF72Cutlass

Stopped and grabbed some plasti-gauge on the way home. As far as measuring the journals and bores could you explain what I would be doing and looking for. I have a set of micrometers and 6in caliper. I am really just trying to get this back together for now as it was minus the knock which I am pretty confident is from the badly eaten rod bearings I pulled out. I have decided to replace the mains while in this deep just because. Again, I plan on getting a different block to "muscle" up.

m371961

Bores have to be measured with inside mics to get any accuracy. Clean and measure journals with mic and compare to specs. Plasti-guage will measure bearing clearances as you reassemble and give an idea if clearances are acceptable.
Did you see any metal in oil and filter? Pics of what you call bad bearings?

USAF72Cutlass

Thinking I may be in deeper than I wanted already. I was just checking the journal for the #1/#2 connecting rod on the Crank and there is quite a groove between where the two rods meet. So now my dilemma is should I just bite the bullet and order and new crank kit. It seems it would be easier to just order the kit as it appears to come with all needed bearings as well.
http://www.apmengineparts.com/oldsmo...shaft-kit.html
Second choice is to take it in get it turned, try to figure out all the bearing sizes, reorder new bearing kits, etc. Seems buying the above kit would be best. Thoughts?
Again, just looking to get the beast running well while I do a better build. Also attached are two photos, first one of the bearings that were chewed, and the second of the mains.

Lars

bring the crank into a machine shop and have it turned 10-10 on the loose side. Usually the shop will send it out to a speciality shop to have it turned. Or find the local crankshaft supply shop and go directly to them. After its turned, install it with new rods and mains. check with plasti guage when installing. Use rubber hose on the rod bolts so you don't scrape the journals. Clean everything as best as you can and reassemble with white lithium grease. Its redneck shade tree kind of stuff BUT should work. clean your oil pump very well too.

m371961

What he said.^
Or find a used running engine you can hear and check oil pressure on.
Nothing worse then doing all the work of remove, teardown, patch, install and still have trouble. Been there many years ago.
It's really time to do your engine plans now if possible.

USAF72Cutlass

So either way you think that getting the old crank turned is a better idea than ordering that reman one? If I get this one turned I still need to know how to order new main bearings as well as the rod bearings? Do I need to order the +.001 if I get this turned 10-10? Also, how do I order the right ones? The ones that were supposed to be for my engine were much more narrow and did not have the look at all, the holes did not line up center on the block, and the center bearing currently has side edges that these did not have. I am expecting to return them but have a small window to do so and reorder at the same time. Return policies...yay! I really can't do the full build now due to finances. But I have found both a 350 and 455 block relatively inexpensive. If I put the money into that so I can build it then eventually just swap I would rather. I am down to one vehicle in the house with both my wife and I working it would be nice to have this in the meantime...I really do appreciate all the inputs so far, and don't want anybody to think I am blowing off the ideas just have reasons why I am looking to get her up and on the road for now.

Lars

You may have some metal shavings in the oil passages. what I have done before is to get about 2 feet of brake line, connect it to a air chuck/blower, remove the oil plugs on each end of the block and blow the hell out of it. stick the end of the brake line into the passages and from the main saddles to the passages. get something like WD-40 and use that as a liquid cleaner, spray some in and blow.


So you are going to reuse them 307 heads? should be ok for a runner, nothing more.. when your done with 350 you can start looking for a 455

Lars

bring the crank in first and then get the bearings, if it is turned 10-10 you will need to get .010 oversized bearings. the shop may need to take more than that thou. waite till its done.

J-(Chicago)

Hate to be a bubble burster, but just find another engine that runs good. That smog 350 is going to eat your wallet and the next 4 months alive trying to polish that turd right now.
Return all of that stuff you bought, and you will probably have near enough.

Keep it around though, for a better build in the future.

USAF72Cutlass

Thanks Lars, going to call around today and see about places and prices, the one I called this morning wanted $150, hence wondering if ordering the remanufactured one was a bad idea, if I am going to pay $150+ to turn this one why not go with the one I posted above.
J-(Chicago) Thanks for the input but I have this one torn down to the block already, at this point I would rather either A) get it back in running well, or B) just build it into a muscle now.

USAF72Cutlass

Well I just got a really good phone call from the semi local crank shop. I am headed to drop off the crank to get it turned. Cost is $190 out the door with all the bearings as well. Beats the one online and this will only be a two day turnaround!! I have been super motivated by the recommended tread Lars. I think I may go ahead and just cam it now while its out if I can get the wife to sign off on it. Looking at a 270 Comp Cam Kit from Jegs. I have done a little more looking at what I have too. Right now I have a Edelbrock Performer Olds 350 Intake with a Holley 4 barrel feeding it. I have to see if I can find a way to ID the current cam but again I can tell it's not anywhere near newer. Also ordered some nice Olds Gold for the block. As always any input is appreciated.

Lars

Just stop it,... Your heads and compression suk. You got a turd don't polish it.

USAF72Cutlass

While I do appreciate your bluntness Lars, was bringing the crank in to get turned not what you said. Thanks for the support, I do appreciate everybody's input. But, I also would like to state that although the compression and heads suck as you put it, those can be changed in time. I guess aye I should look elsewhere for support and information, as cropping on somebody's project is not what I came here for. Thanks. Turd Polisher Out.

oldcutlass

I think they are suggesting a better route for you to take. A lot of us have been in your shoes and don't want you to make the same mistakes as others. They also are making suggestions so you don't have to rework things for your performance build later.

USAF72Cutlass

I do see some trying to help and just get mixed input from Lars. It was he who said to get the crank turned so I did just to have him say it sucks and it's a turd. I came here for help, and I do understand that some are trying to steer me in a better direction. But to tell me one thing then when I do that tell me to stop it's a turd is not being helpful. I hope to recover this thread and get the assistance I read in the post Lars suggested. That is what this site is about, not slamming people's hopes and dreams but helping them come true.

oldcutlass

I agree he did a 180, however if your just wanting to get this running, I would not put a new cam in it. I would just do the crank and new bearings. If it did not smoke before nix the rings. Clean out the oil pump pickup screen, possibly replace the pump, and replace the timing set. Get an engine gasket set and an intake set, reassemble, put it back in the car and get it running. Its a temporary fix, I would not waste a lot of money on your current engine.

Your other option as stated above is to find a running engine that you can just drop in for the time being.

Then look for a good core for your performance build, whether it's a BBO or SBO your choice. Build it at your leisure and build it right.

USAF72Cutlass

Exactly what my original plan was. I will get the crank back Saturday and begin putting it back together. As far as the timing set, it seemed nice and tight when I pulled it. How do I know if it needs to be replaced? Oil pump cleaned and ready, didn't have anything as the previous owner also redid the oil pump. Thanks for the push forward.

Lars

Your in our "olds" group now we tend to keep our fellow brothern fron fvking up. it may be bruital but we've been there...


as far as the timing chane goes, does it have plastic on the upper gear? if it doesnt put it back in, should be fine.


what head gaskets are you going to use?

USAF72Cutlass

No plastic in the gears or chain. As far as the head gaskets I had ordered a engine rebuild gasket kit from jegs when I ordered the incorrect bearings. http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/store...=&pgGrp=search

oldcutlass

That kit will work. Make sure all your lifters and push rods go back into the same bores they were removed from. Please note, if the bottoms of the lifters are a really bad concave shape replace with a new set, I think they are about $80. Remember this is a bandaide and will probably last a fair amount of time until you get set up with a good build.

Lars

yup should work. Sorry, didn't mead to be a dick but i thought you needed a reality check.

USAF72Cutlass

When I pulled the lifters they looked pretty healthy as well, no bowling to them. I think at this point I will begin the re-assembly on Monday when I get the Crank back from the shop. As far as looking for a block for a better build, 350 built up or 455? Will the 455 drop right into the car no changes, i.e. engine mounts, transmission, radiator, etc? I really like the 350 just because I have done a few and I am comfortable, but if I stick with the 350 what heads do I need to look at to avoid the turd polish? Sounds like the 5,6 and 7 heads are all pretty similar as far as compression is concerned. If I am going to do a "long-term" build I want to do it right. I am not looking for a track car or even a street racer "all the time " but I do want good beefy muscle under the hood when I'm done without completely breaking the bank. I still have body work that needs to be done too...

oldcutlass

A 455 will basically drop right in. You can go relatively stock with aluminum manifold and cam with a little lope and you'll be very happy. In most cases you can get away with your stock radiator and trans if you don't beat it like rented mule. For what you want you'll be extremely happy.

m371961

There is no replacement for displacement.

allyolds68

I'm reading all of this and just shaking my head. You want cheap and want to get it back on the road:


http://binghamton.craigslist.org/pts/4721169503.html


http://syracuse.craigslist.org/pts/4657772058.html


http://newyork.craigslist.org/lgi/pts/4717654009.html


or even this:


http://newyork.craigslist.org/jsy/pts/4706622533.html


With a little looking you can find a running Olds 350, that's way better than what you've got, for less than $500

USAF72Cutlass

Here is the issue with dumping $400-600 on one of those, I don't have it lump sum. Contrary to popular belief the military does not get paid very well. I am buying and getting what I have going a little at a time. Piece by piece. I would love to have the ability to buy one of these, they are all close enough I could get it tomorrow and smile the whole drive home, but the fact is I have to do it this way. If I try to save it up, the kids will need glasses tomorrow, the wife will need new work boots, saving for a motor will never happen in my home. Three females make that impossible so I take what I can get, and spend it the only way I can at the moment, if I don't it'll be gone tomorrow. Thanks for the links...I hope to be able to grab up something like this maybe around tax return time. This does however lead me to a question though...what makes these engines so much better than the one I have? Is it solely the heads?

allyolds68

The fact that it knocked will require that the crank be turned so you have to return the bearings you bought anyway. The heads are crap.


I appreciate your service more than you can imagine.


I understand working on a budget. It took me seven yours to restore my car. My 11 year old daughter was 3 months old when I bought my car. My wife was going to friggen kill me. I've got a five year old now too. But I'm also 51 years old and not living paycheck to paycheck anymore.


Take a deep breath and come up with a budget and plan that doesn't necessarily have your car running tomorrow. I hate seeing people dump a bunch of money in a rush and then just have it blow up again.


JMO. Good luck!

oldcutlass

x2 on thanks for your service from another vet. We all understand about budgets and family. The nice thing about doing your engine is you know what you have. You can follow your plan and come out fine as long as you do the repair properly.

USAF72Cutlass

Thank you for your support allyolds68. I am trying to make things work on what we have, budgeting in this household never works. Something always comes up. But I have been able to satisfy my "toy addiction" thus far. In the past it has been buy, fix up, sell. However, I LOVE the Cutlass, I still remember my dad's 442 of the same year as mine. This one I plan to keep. It will most likely take me 7 years as well, if not longer. This one is here to stay. I am okay driving it as a driver right now and nothing else. There is some body work to be done as well that I need to keep in mind when planning the $$$$. Again, just getting her running decently for now is my immediate goal. Then we will take more baby steps from there.


Also, thanks for YOUR service oldcutlass, I always have and always will say it's those that came before me that keep me doing what I do, 17 1/2 in just a few left until my retirement.


So what heads are good for the 350 without changing up the pistons and everything else, or is that really the only way. There is a guy somewhat local on craigslist selling #4,5 and 8 heads for $100/set. I'm sure they need redone but is that something I should look into?

USAF72Cutlass

Going to get the newly turned Crankshaft today. When the shop called the guy wanted to know if I got new rods yet since I had spun a rod? Do I need to get new rods? If so this just got a lot more expensive...