Tony72Cutlass'S'

Hey All,

So i went to change my thermostat last night, removed one of the water outlet screws just fine, the other one... SNAP

The screw is sticking about 1/4'' out of the manifold, i tried everything, gripping with vicegrips. filing the sides to grip it. i Even took a hacksaw and made a notch so i can try with a screwdriver

NOTHING CAN GET THIS BOLT OUT.

I can't find Heli-Coil's anywhere up here in Montreal, what can i do!

Thanks!

Tony

boese1978

try a really small pipe wrench - like a plumber would use, I have had luck doing this. I should add that there is a right way and wrong way to use a pipe wrench, you have to do it so the "loose" jaw digs into the broken bolt when you turn...helicoils will do you no good until you getthe broken one out and see what you are dealling with for the threads.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Tried that! It just stripped more and more material off the screw.

This might be because i torqued the screw down to 25 foot pounds the last time i installed it.....

oldcutlass

Is it cast iron or aluminum? You might try heating the manifold around the bolt with a torch. Or plenty of penetrating oil and let it soak. Right before you go to remove it, give it a good tap with a bfh directly on top.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

gotcha! It's a aluminum performer intake manifold. Bolt is steel OEM.

If i drill a hole and buy a bolt extractor, think that'll work???

1970cs

Two ways come to mind, first less aggressive, get a ***** punch and center punch the bolt, take your time, I mean really try to find the exact center as much as possible, then get a sharp drill bit that is may be half the size of the bolt, drill out bolt at this point you can try a bolt remover or drill till you get fairly close to the O.D. threads at this point the metal is so thin that you can peel or even tap it out. FYI if scared about drilling to deep mark your drill with the depth of the other one that is out.

#2 oxy/acetylene torch heat bolt to red and blast it out!
Ignore number #2 aluminum intake information after the fact!

Pat

MDchanic

That's a dangerous game.

Your base material is aluminum, which is soft.
Your bolt is steel, which is hard.
A screw extractor is hardened steel, which is very hard.

You've already got a situation where you have a hard thing stuck in the middle of a soft thing, which means that any eccentricity or slippage of the drill bit will cause the drill to veer off of the hard bolt and into the soft aluminum.
If you then put a very hard extractor into the center of the bolt and it breaks off, then it becomes a near-impossibility to get a hole into where you need it.

You have two advantages now:

• You've still got enough of the bolt sticking up to grab, and
• You have access to the metal almost all around the bolt (all sides and underneath).

I would recommend:

• Be sure all the water is out of the manifold passages, as it absorbs heat.
• Get a hot torch (MAPP at minimum, Oxy/MAPP or Oxy/Acetylene are better).
• Carefully heat all around the bolt with the torch (aluminum melts!).
  The air in the water passage underneath will help you by allowing heat to build up where you want it.
• When it's good and hot (just about red, but not quite, as you're dealing with aluminum), snap on the ViseGrips and unscrew it.

If you have to go with an extractor, then you'll have to grind the bolt flat in order to centerpunch it perfectly in the center, and you'll lose your chance of grabbing it with ViseGrips.

Good luck!

- Eric

Tony72Cutlass'S'

OK! Sounds like a plan.

First, i will try heating the manifold around the bolt, and then snapping the vicegrips to it and turning it out.

if this does not work. Maybe i'll try making a hole in the middle, then slowly enlarging the hole until i'm almost at the threads. Then use an extractor?

droptopron

Reminder - next time use anti-sieze any time you are screwing into aluminum

MDchanic

Yes. If you have to use an extractor (and they are NOT foolproof!), then you should drill the biggest hole you can, because the larger the extractor, the less likely it is to break. It is a physical impossibility to drill the hole in the bolt exactly in the center (you'll see...), so go bigger a little at a time, but don't let the hole "bust out" of the bolt, or you'll make the job harder.

- Eric

oldcutlass

X2 on this!

Eddie Hansen

if you have a welder perhaps you could weld a rod ( t handle) or a nut on the bolt, you can solder aluminum with map gas I would be more worried about ruining the manifold, melting the area etc the aluminum will dissipate the heat much much quicker then the steel bolt... if you are drilling into a hardened bolt make sure you use a cobalt drill bit, go slow, lots of oil, and of course mind your depth... I think you could also tap the bolt add more penetrating oil, and try and wiggle it a little to get more oil penetration, then more oil ....

Tedd Thompson

In the aircraft industry broken bolts are removed regularly by welding a extension (another bolt) on the bolt nub, the heat plus the added leverage will usually get the job done. I would try this first while you still have metal to work with.When welding the ferris metal will not stick to the aluminum....Tedd

Boldsmobile

Ditto on welding something to it.

MDchanic

That's IF he's got a welder, guys !

- Eric

Tony72Cutlass'S'

I've got a 180A lincoln electric welder.

Too bad my car's on the street and nowhere need a 230V plug.......

MDchanic

Well, at least that gives you a Plan B .

I'd say that since you've got a decent stub to grab, add a bit of heat and it should come right out.

- Eric

Tony72Cutlass'S'

You mean weld the outlet right to the manifold

IF only it was cast iron...

So, is a propane torch just about as good as farting on it? Or do i really need Mapp gas.

Octania

x3 on anti sieze. Always. Xst bolts in iron heads also.

A few things to try

1- GRIP. You said you have flats for the VG tool. Photo would be nice. With screwdriver slot [a mistake] is there still meat for VG to grip? Use BRAND NEW or at least very sharp Vice Grips. no chinesium lookalikes. Adjust until you have to grunt to calmp 'em on. Seriously. Remove and set aside.

2- HEAT. Get the biggest most badass torch you can get your hands on. Size matters. Acetylene preferably, MAPP gas at the least. Heat the AL intake around the bolt.

3- Lube. Forget magic juices from the store. Only two things matter here. Voodoo juice = 1/2 ATF and 1/2 Acetone, or CANDLE WAX. Both make flammable fumes so beware of that. Apply to HEATED bolt/ intake. Tap bolt gently with hammer.

4- TIME... Let it cool and soak. Go have dinner, or come back tomorrow. Time matters.

5- more heat. heat it again, apply the wax or voodoo juice. Using an ice cube or air blast, cool the bolt and only the bolt about 10 seconds, to shrink it.

NOW immediately while bolt is cooler and AL is hotter, grunt-clamp the VG's in place and it'll either come right out, snap off, or you start over.

If it snaps off, you will be drilling.

Maybe just buy a new intake?

But seriously if you don't have NAPA stores up there, epay has helicoil kits, or one of us can send one.

I once managed to drill the hole exactly in the center of the bolt. Had to go all the way out to tap drill size. Then the thread, which was all that was left of the bolt, came out like a heli-coil. Pretty sure I saved that one. Rare event.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Grunt-Clamp! That's my word of the day.

I will take pictures soon as i get home. I'm still at work. I'll try my best to find a mapp-gas torch, or hell, i'll buy one. I will probably be able to justify using it again when i come to re-doing my exhaust this winter.

Eddie Hansen

you get mapp gas same place you get your propane the torch is the same , both home depot and lowes sell it... it is the yellow cylinder, propane will usually be green ... do be carful and watch the aluminum carefully.....

MDchanic

It won't hurt to try propane, and you might get lucky, but if you can pick up a MAPP torch on the way home, you might as well, as it will work better.

As mentioned, a blast of freon or Dust-Off (can upside down, so it's a liquid) on the bolt itself after the manifold is hot won't hurt either.

- Eric

Tony72Cutlass'S'

On the way home now,

Passed by our version of otter zone, the guy at the counter felt bad for me and gave me the water outlet gasket for free. I thought it was a nice gesture.

droldsmorland

If you really can’t get it out with all the good advice above then it’s time to pull the intake and take it to a machine shop before you destroy more of the bolt/intake. Find a local machine shop that has EDM capability (electrical discharge machining). It will clean up nicely. No Idea what that would cost but shouldn’t be more than $100. Above that you’d have to question that with a $250 intake?
As others mentioned thin coating of anti-seize is always good. Another tip when a fastener is through drilled/threaded into a water jacketed area is to not allow the bolt to stick down past the threads into the water. This will prevent the buildup of corrosion on the threads which you have to pass through the threaded hole when unscrewing. That scenario is never good unscrewing through anything let alone aluminum.
Also keep in mind with the anti-seize and the fact that it’s going into aluminum you need to significantly de-rate your torque value ~ 20%. Then another trick is to use 3M spray adhesive on the stat side of the gasket and a very thin film of RTV on the intake side
This will allow it to come off easier in the future and prevent you from having to scrape on aluminum. Make sure the housing is nice & flat.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Gee! Are you telling me these bolts are exposed to coolant on the other side?? I never put any sealant, maybe that's why my darn piece was leaking in the first place.

Live and learn, I'm 25 and I've been wrenching on this car for 3 years, and realistically. I'll probably be turning wrenches on it t'ill I'm 100.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Bought the mapp torch, heated the intake like hell, cooled it down using some WD-40. Clamped it like hell.

SNAP, the rest of the stud came off.. I dont think it's my day today guys...

oldcutlass

You are here! Be carefull and good luck!

Eddie Hansen

Remember to use a cobalt drill let the drill do the work and do not force it use a smaller drill first then enlarge the hole use the biggest ez out that is practical good luck

bdub217

i'd use an EZ OUT bit or weld on an extension like other said, otherwise you're going to have to pay to get it removed, how much is a new intake vs. repairing yours?

YNIM

Bonne chance Tony.

Octania

Are you telling me these bolts are exposed to coolant on the other side?? I never put any sealant, maybe that's why my darn piece was leaking in the first place.
===================
One of a few Olds Engine bolts that are not into sealed ["blind"] holes.

Thermostat housing to intake
throttle dashpot to intake
Certain Carb to intake holes, esp. the 66-67 Toro RH rear
which used a carb bolt for a vacuum nipple
Dist'r clamp to block.
Exhaust manifold to head, exc. center one.
Main caps to block

This location exposes the bolt to the coolant, and the ensuing corrosion. Event the fuel pump and timing cover bolts are blind holes, and they are only risking exposure to hot OIL...

Allan R

Tony, I read through this thread and couldn't help but think about how this car has been fighting you all the way along. Yes, the bolt goes right through to the water passage. So if you're drilling? I'd STRONGLY suggest you drain more of the coolant down till that passage is empty. Then you can put some paper towel under where you need to drill to catch the filings. You don't want metal filings going through that new water pump and causing potential issues.

What a rough break. Sorry to hear. With all the work it's going to take to get this fixed up? It will prolly be faster and easier to find a replacement intake. As you know Aluminum and Steel don't react well together. That's why the bolts should be coated with either anti seize or copper coat. When steel/aluminum are in constant direct contact they create quick oxidation and the aluminum can deteriorate pretty fast.

Ever notice that the trim on your rear window has those little plastic washers under the bolt head where it fastens to the trunk opening? It's there for a reason - the trim is anodized aluminum and the screws are steel.

rcrac3r

I would try the welding option, but with a small add on. When I was turning wrenches professionally back in the day you would run into this kind of thing from time to time. The best way we found was to use a washer that would fit the broken bolt. Weld the bolt from the center out to the washer. Then weld a nut to the washer. Let cool for a minute then the broken bolt came right out. Had to do this to both aluminum & cast parts for exhaust/intake manifold bolts, head bolts, starter bolts, etc. They came out every time.

Tony72Cutlass'S'

You bet! This car does NOT want to get plated! Even the people at the inspection bureau felt bad for me...

OK, will drain the coolant! Should a gallon be enough to expose the passage so i can put a paper towel???

Indy_68_S

Arrrghh. Run away..!

I went thru the same situation on mine, but both bolt heads twisted right off with very little force.

This was on my OEM iron intake, so I didn't have the aluminum to consider though...

I forgot my standard heat procedure and rounded/ground down one 'stub' with vicegrips until there wasn't much above the intake. At that point I remembered a small set of E-Z-outs I had but never used. I carefully drilled out the bolt (it wasn't hardened) until I could fit the largest extractor. Then I started carefully twisting it until *PING*...it snapped off flush with the intake. I spent hours with new carbide bit$ getting almost nowhere trying to get thru the extractor. I finally gave up on that bolt. I PB-Blastered the other, heated the intake briefly with a MAPP torch and it spun right out on the first try.

I ended up having a local shop use some sort of electrical arc thing to blow/burn the extractor out for $20 (but they did tumble the intake for me) and the intake threads were fine.....

I dunno what procedure to use on an aluminum intake....Just thought I'd warn about the extractors....

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Wow! Great info, why are there so many non-blind holes on olds engines!? Was it a clearance issue? I would imagine that hot oil wouldn't be a big deal at all.

You know, i had this same trouble getting out my diff filler plug. i had to heat it-soakit-heat it-soak it for week! Until CRANK, she popped right out like it was never seized before...

bdub217

eat some wheaties and give it hell. it'll come eventually it has to.

Eddie Hansen

Any news tony? Hoping for good news :-)

Tony72Cutlass'S'

Hey all,

So I scrapped my intake

Started drilling BOOM drill bit snapped, to make matters worse, I got the bit out, started using the puller, And that snapped too.

I'm waiting for a guy right now, he has a spare 7111 intake he'll hopefully sell me for cheap, he's a buddy so hopefully I can get my car running tonight...

Thanks for the help everyone,

Can someone give me pointers on how to properly seal an intake? I have a metal-turkey tray gasket type

Allan R

Tony,
Have a look at this link that Steve posted to help Roger with his aluminum intake. Only difference will be that Roger had a 455. Principle is the same though https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...tml#post387297

Sorry to hear about the intake problem. Any chance you might want to put a stock intake? You wouldn't run into this problem again, but the 7111 prolly flows better.