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I know you said you can't space the power steering bracket out (and, in fact if the kit was worth a **** they'd give you directions on how to) but I think you can easily space the bracket out by adding washers to the bracket bolts and fabricating a new return bracket that mounts to the exhaust manifold bolt.
Is this the bracket? (i'm too lazy right now to crop this pic but either of the red ones are the standard PS bracket set ups). All of the bolts that are parallel to the center line of the car can be shimmed. The return bracket is the only one that can't. The lower center bracket remains in the stock location. The bracket that holds the pump gets shimmed out at the three bolt locations. You'll also have to shim the lower bracket to pump connection on the back of the pump(hopefully there's enough thread there, I think there is).
Last edited by allyolds68; January 13th, 2016 at 02:10 PM.
Okay, I've taken out the time to read your thread. You do have a picture where you compare one PS pump pulley from an unknown setup to yours. Clearly yours is on too far, and there is a significant gap on the others. The DME setup that DM has pictured on his site, shows a pressed on pulley on the power steering pump. Yours isn't, and I'm sure that is a problem since the gap you're missing is probably the width of the nut. It also looks like it's about to rub on the bracket.
Second your pulley on the alternator, although hard to tell from the pictures you have posted seems on too far. The alternator looks like an aftermarket G-body alternator with some kind of shroud on it. Different than the one DME has staged. It may be that the setups are the same throughout all the years, but the pully's varied between years. Maybe DME was false to say it worked for everything however, in my opinion, you have the wrong PS pump and alternator for the application.
One other thing to take into account, is the balancer thickness. If the balancer is thicker than stock, the pully will stick out further too. DME has a stock balancer. Heck DME's setup looks all bone stock.
I know you said you can't space the power steering bracket out (and, in fact if the kit was worth a **** they'd give you directions on how to) but I think you can easily space the bracket out by adding washers to the bracket bolts and fabricating a new return bracket that mounts to the exhaust manifold bolt.
Is this the bracket? (i'm too lazy right now to crop this pic but either of the red ones are the standard PS bracket set ups). All of the bolts that are parallel to the center line of the car can be shimmed. The return bracket is the only one that can't. The lower center bracket remains in the stock location. The bracket that holds the pump gets shimmed out at the three bolt locations. You'll also have to shim the lower bracket to pump connection on the back of the pump(hopefully there's enough thread there, I think there is).
Ok, the red one in your pic that is on the left looks like the one I have, but not sure if the rear brace is the same or not. Regardless, can't be spaced out because it moves everything, the idler too, and there's no way to move the idler closer.
EDIT: The rear brace that is directly below the red bracket setup on the left is the one I have, and it appears there may be a difference between BBO & SBOs as to which brace to use.
So you would have to space the two mount points on the water pump/timing cover, the rear support bracket, the alt bracket from the manifold, and the alt brace that goes to the one exhaust bolt. And that's IF you could move the idler in.
The red bracket on the right at least has the flat area that the original idler would probably have worked. What year setup is that? Is that a press on pulley?
I was informed by a reputable source, that ALL olds brackets place the ALT and PS in the same distance from the front of the block. (see Joe's post above)
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Last edited by HWYSTR455; January 13th, 2016 at 06:37 PM.
Okay, I've taken out the time to read your thread. You do have a picture where you compare one PS pump pulley from an unknown setup to yours. Clearly yours is on too far, and there is a significant gap on the others. The DME setup that DM has pictured on his site, shows a pressed on pulley on the power steering pump. Yours isn't, and I'm sure that is a problem since the gap you're missing is probably the width of the nut. It also looks like it's about to rub on the bracket.
Second your pulley on the alternator, although hard to tell from the pictures you have posted seems on too far. The alternator looks like an aftermarket G-body alternator with some kind of shroud on it. Different than the one DME has staged. It may be that the setups are the same throughout all the years, but the pully's varied between years. Maybe DME was false to say it worked for everything however, in my opinion, you have the wrong PS pump and alternator for the application.
One other thing to take into account, is the balancer thickness. If the balancer is thicker than stock, the pully will stick out further too. DME has a stock balancer. Heck DME's setup looks all bone stock.
Best of luck.
My reply to your post on ROP, just to maintain continuity:
yes, there are 2 type of pumps through the years, press on, and keyed. DMR makes a pulley for either, you specify when you purchase the kit.
The other person's pic I post on that thread is also a DMR setup, but with the pressed on pulley for the PS pump. I have yet to find anyone that is running or has run the keyed kit.
From DMR website/catalog:
"Aluminum 5 piece serpentine pulley set to convert a standard V-belt system to the newer style serpentine set-up. Will fit 1965-1990 Oldsmobile V-8 engines and will work with either long or short water pumps. DMR-30180 a 1/2" spacer kit will be needed to adapt short water pump to fit in place of longer A/C pump. Great for show application and will help eliminate throwing belts under high RPM applications. Comes with a black hard coat finish to prevent the belt from wearing the pulleys as can happen with normal aluminum pulley sets. Includes alternator, power steering, idler pulley, idler pulley bracket, crankshaft and water pump pulleys. The water pump pulley has a "V" groove at the back to drive the air conditioner. Uses a normal clockwise rotation water pump. Available in standard drive or underdrive sets. Crankshaft in the underdrive sets are approximately 20% smaller to drive the rest of the pulleys approximately 20% slower. Will save HP as the tension on a serpentine set is about 1/2 that of a "V" belt set."
My ALT is a standard 10/12si, it just has the baffle on the fan. The PS and ALT pulleys line up on the same plane. But I can space the ALT pulley, so that's a moot point.
I realize the pulleys vary for some years, but the OE brackets I have came off an all-original 350 A/C car, same with the V pulleys I have, and that OE setup installs fine and runs true.
So, just to clarify, I have the correct brackets, the correct PS pump, and the correct ALT. The balancer is NOT spaced out. (The balancer and water pump pulley line up perfectly).
No WAY will the kit fit as advertised, and ANYONE who has tried the kit has run into the same issues I have. THOSE are the people I would like to hear from if possible. Or for that matter, anyone who has used the kit successfully.
You can't put a 1/4" spacer behind each of these locations and change the mount on the right ride? I know Joe P has said that the A/C and non-A/C PS mounts are the same but it appears that you have a different mount on the right (drivers) side than the "bar" I show on my other pic. You'd have to come up with a way to shim that out too.
From the look of this DMR pic it appears if you shim out the upper bracket the idler does not move because it's attached to the lower bracket.
If I was DMR I'd be embarressed to sell something that's mocked up so **** poor. It's on POS looking motor and nothing's tightened or even bolted up. I hope that idler has got a lot of pull because you're not going to be able to gain any tension by adjusting the alternator or power steering pump, they're both in the full tight position. I guess if it didn't work you could go with a shorter belt
Last edited by allyolds68; January 14th, 2016 at 05:13 AM.
The idler bracket bolts right to the PS bracket, you space the PS bracket, the idler spaces too.
And yes, even the crappy pic on the website and in the catalog isn't complete, or tightened even. Why wouldn't you have a completed setup pic on at least a spray-bombed bare block?
Like I said, if anyone has pics of an installed setup, please post.
The idler bracket bolts right to the PS bracket, you space the PS bracket, the idler spaces too.
And yes, even the crappy pic on the website and in the catalog isn't complete, or tightened even. Why wouldn't you have a completed setup pic on at least a spray-bombed bare block?
Like I said, if anyone has pics of an installed setup, please post.
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I guess I'd need to see a pic of the idler pulley bracket that DMR supplies. It may be as simple at the new bracket mounts between the lower bracket and the upper bracket instead of in front of both and that would move the PS pump out the thickness of the bracket
I guess I'd need to see a pic of the idler pulley bracket that DMR supplies. It may be as simple at the new bracket mounts between the lower bracket and the upper bracket instead of in front of both and that would move the PS pump out the thickness of the bracket
I think the press fit and keyed PS pump pulley's were engineered the same (depth) minus the shaft hole opening being adjusted as such (diameter, keyed notch). Really the keyed PS pulley should be shallower to allow it to come out away from the PS pump more, and it looks like it's not. You're clearly off by the width of that nut. So, here's what I would do. Contact DM and tell him this and then exchange the keyed bracket for the press fit. Get a press fit pump and then you're almost there. The alternator, I would hunt down a more OEM type than the one you have and try that. It sounds like there's no difference in the alternator pulley when you use a keyed or press fit pump. You may want to verify this with him. Sorry you're going through this BS, but I think you're fighting a losing battle and that DM didn't try the keyed version, just gave the machine shop the dimensions for the keyed shaft and they stamped all the pulley's the same.
Last edited by 74hurstolds; January 14th, 2016 at 11:36 AM.
Reason: sp
I think the press fit and keyed PS pump pulley's were engineered the same (depth) minus the shaft hole opening being adjusted as such (diameter, keyed notch). Really the keyed PS pulley should be shallower to allow it to come out away from the PS pump more, and it looks like it's not. You're clearly off by the width of that nut. So, here's what I would do. Contact DM and tell him this and then exchange the keyed bracket for the press fit. Get a press fit pump and then you're almost there. The alternator, I would hunt down a more OEM type than the one you have and try that. It sounds like there's no difference in the alternator pulley when you use a keyed or press fit pump. You may want to verify this with him. Sorry you're going through this BS, but I think you're fighting a losing battle and that DM didn't try the keyed version, just gave the machine shop the dimensions for the keyed shaft and they stamped all the pulley's the same.
He won't exchange the PS pulley for the press fit one, I would have to buy it. And have to buy another pump, boosting the cost even more, when it's still a gamble. Could do all that and still be stuck with a setup that doesn't work. The pump I have now is a brand new borgeson, not a rebuilt unit, they are about $160. Another loss.
Whatever the problem is, it's not my problem, the kit he sells clearly doesn't fit all from 1965-90.
I still would like to see a pic of someone who has a setup in operation, I have yet to hear of anyone who does. (except 1 with a press fit)
Your lower bracket that the idler pulley is attached to doesn't even look the same as the one in the DMR pic. Yours is the standard bracket. I have no idea what the DMR one is from. Probably a later G-body. It may have nothing to do with the problem but it highlights that fact that you can't really build a "universal kit"
Last edited by allyolds68; January 14th, 2016 at 12:04 PM.
Wow. That is a friggin disaster. And telling you to find someone else with the same problem to get a refund, is even worse.
Can you get a new idler pulley machined with more offset? That will be cheap, as it has no grooves. There are a few machine shops out there that specialize in pulleys, or anyone local should be able to recreate it (though cost at some local shops can be outrageous if you interrupt their "normal" business routine for custom work).
Wow. That is a friggin disaster. And telling you to find someone else with the same problem to get a refund, is even worse.
Can you get a new idler pulley machined with more offset? That will be cheap, as it has no grooves. There are a few machine shops out there that specialize in pulleys, or anyone local should be able to recreate it (though cost at some local shops can be outrageous if you interrupt their "normal" business routine for custom work).
It would be easier and cheaper to have a new PS pulley made, but it would cost roughly what the whole kit cost, so would be better to just go with a March setup.
Like I said, it's a lot of work to move all the brackets out AND have to deal with the idler, much easier and less work to have a new PS pulley made. Or find one that would have the correct offset from another application.
I'm not even going to talk about how I feel regarding the service and policy of DMR. In my opinion, RUN from anything to do with him or his shop.
Your lower bracket that the idler pulley is attached to doesn't even look the same as the one in the DMR pic. Yours is the standard bracket. I have no idea what the DMR one is from. Probably a later G-body. It may have nothing to do with the problem but it highlights that fact that you can't really build a "universal kit"
The bracket in the DMR photo appears to be a 307 bracket, but that's irrelevant, as the position of the pump fore-aft will be the same as on any other 68-90 Olds PS pump bracket. Also note that there are no non-stock shims or spacers on the bracket in the DMR photo. The big difference is that DMR used a press-on pump and pulley. That's the only difference.
When I get home from L.A., I'll scan the Olds belt diagrams that show the spacing out from the front cover.
The bracket in the DMR photo appears to be a 307 bracket, but that's irrelevant, as the position of the pump fore-aft will be the same as on any other 68-90 Olds PS pump bracket. Also note that there are no non-stock shims or spacers on the bracket in the DMR photo. The big difference is that DMR used a press-on pump and pulley. That's the only difference.
When I get home from L.A., I'll scan the Olds belt diagrams that show the spacing out from the front cover.
That would be very helpful Joe, and I agree, the only difference is the pressed/keyed PS pulley.
Dick Miller won't participate in anything on the 'internet', he doesn't feel anything is accurate or useful on 'forums' or from people on the 'internet'.
It would be easier and cheaper to have a new PS pulley made, but it would cost roughly what the whole kit cost, so would be better to just go with a March setup.
Like I said, it's a lot of work to move all the brackets out AND have to deal with the idler, much easier and less work to have a new PS pulley made. Or find one that would have the correct offset from another application.
I'm not even going to talk about how I feel regarding the service and policy of DMR. In my opinion, RUN from anything to do with him or his shop.
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A new custom pulley should not be $600. Talk to ASP racing in Texas, they are very reasonable. You may be able to send them your existing pulley and tell them how much offset you need. They are fairly short on the phone (not rude in any way, but you aren't going to have a 15 minute conversation), but they did everything per cost/schedule at good prices.
There are a number of people that make serpentine pulleys for P-pumps. PSC motorsports, Howe racing, Dorman makes a small S-10 one that people use with the 4.3L bracket serpentine swap, KRC advertises a 4.2" diameter pulley for Saginaw pump...
You should be able to get a correct pulley for no more than $150. Obviously it's more sunk cost, but it doesn't double the cost of the kit. That's why I mentioned local shops charging egregious money above for something that isn't "easy machining" like they are used to doing.
I have been watching this thread from the beginning and it is sad that you ended up getting a system that didn't work for your set up!Just plain sucks and no real way to resolve without added cash.
If I could get the correct PS pulley for $150 I would jump on it, but I seriously doubt that's possible, especially if I don't have a diagram outlining the specs of the pulley, in a format of what the shop generally uses.
If it uses a standard belt profile, the shop should have that, then it's adjust a few parameters (diameter, offset, hub), and run the machine. I've gotten quotes in the $150-175 for custom crank pulleys with 6 rib serpentine profile, that are significantly larger in diameter than that P/S pulley. I designed my whole system from scratch, so I have way more time invested into this crap than I ever care to admit...
Hm. Maybe it's worth a call then. With the old pulley my initial thoughts were that it shouldn't be that difficult or expensive, but several others convinced me otherwise.
I'm concerned that I was shipped underdrive pulleys too, since the balancer pulley is so small. I was thinking he just pulled whatever he had off the shelf and sent it to me.
If this is a press-on pulley, how does one remove it? by destruction? I see no puller lip.
Plus you want to run the AC compressor thru oh 80 degrees of belt contact between multigroove and WP pulley? I am going to call poor design on that score.
Originally Posted by allyolds68
Last edited by Octania; January 15th, 2016 at 10:01 AM.
If this is a press-on pulley, how does one remove it? by destruction? I see no puller lip.
Plus you want to run the AC compressor thru oh 80 degrees of belt contact between multigroove and WP pulley? I am going to call poor design on that score.
Looks like a two jaw gear puller could grab the holes pretty well. Being billet, it should be stout enough to handle a puller.
Not sure what your second comment means. The A/C belt has about 1/2 wrap around the water pump and the A/C pulley. Seems pretty good to me.
Now, the ribbed belt having less than 1/4 wrap around the water pump is a different matter....
HWYSTR455,
This is absolutely an underdrive system. The damper pulley is very small and the water pump pulley is quite large. The small size of the P/S pulley will keep it near stock speed. The slower WP rotation won't matter if the rest of the cooling system has enough cooling capacity. It will underdrive the alternator, so an "overdrive" alternator pulley is probably worthwhile.
83hurstguy - Oh yeah, I've looked at that thread a number of times, sweet setup. I would prefer a SD7 compressor, since that's what I have, and the line wouldn't be an issue since they exit the top of the body. As for WP sealing issues, do you use the bracket bolts to retain the pump, or are there studs? Anyway, I would be interested in a setup like that, sure it's a ton less cost than a March, for one. Any clue if it would work with a 10/12si ALT?
oddball - Underdrive, that sucks. I specifically ordered the non-underdrive ones. Is it possible the combo of the pulleys drive it at the 'regular' speed? Guess there's a where to calc that, but this being a daily driver, AC car, cooling and charging are big concerns.
The whole reason I want to go to a wider belt/serpentine setup is because the ALT load can overcome what the v-belt can handle. If you tighten the v-belts too much, it wipes the WP bearing, not enough, it super-heats the ALT pulley and cooks the belt, if not the ALT itself. (bearings and regulators)
"Alternator pulley 3.5”, Crank pulley
4.850”, Water pump pulley 6.00”. Approximately 21% underdrive. 2 sets #DMR-8230 spacer kit
will adapt short water pump to fit in place of longer A/C pump."
That's the underdrive set, I measured the ones I have and the balancer one is larger, the WP one is smaller, and the ALT is smaller. So it does appear it is the non-underdrive set that was sent to me.
Now if that's still underdriven compared to stock, that I'm not sure, but it seems there's a finite distance/space issue between the balancer pulley and the idler, so it may have to be slightly different from OE.
Not sure how you came to the conclusion I'm a glutton for punishment, or how you determined the only way this makes sense, but all I'm trying to do here is figure out a solution.
The CC company requires a dispute filed within 30 days of purchase, I was charged the day I ordered it, and there was like a 3 week backlog on powder coating. Or so DMR says. So, I'm screwed.
I've got like $675 invested in this, what would your suggestion be?
I hope others who are considering the setup from DMR do some homework and find this thread, at least there will be some useful info out there for others to benefit from. That was my main goal, because I found NOTHING out there regarding this setup, and took a risk. Obviously, that risk didn't pay out, and I realized the chance I was taking. So I'm not THAT upset over it.
I will call DMR one more time on Tuesday, after that, if I don't get any resolution, I will make sure this info gets out there, including how DMR does business. Filing a claim with the BBB is futile.
Looks like a two jaw gear puller could grab the holes pretty well. Being billet, it should be stout enough to handle a puller.
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I don't see that working out well. Pass bolts thru the holes maybe. I would prefer to see 2 or 3 tapped holes for that purpose if nothing else.
Not sure what your second comment means. The A/C belt has about 1/2 wrap around the water pump and the A/C pulley. Seems pretty good to me.
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Oh indeed, can't get much better than 180 degrees of belt wrap. But, all the power coming INTO that drive pulley [the WP pulley] comes from...
Now, the ribbed belt having less than 1/4 wrap around the water pump is a different matter....
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EXACTLY. Now it looks more like 60-70 degrees of belt wrap there.
For comparison, from the aforementioned other thread:
Last edited by Octania; January 16th, 2016 at 10:34 AM.
That set up is only slightly under driven compared to the big pulley A/C set ups. It is similar to the ratio I run and will be fine. The massive under drive set ups that have to run small Allen head bolts because the pulley is so small, is a different story. Sorry you are having so much trouble with this set up.
Last edited by olds 307 and 403; January 16th, 2016 at 12:45 PM.
"Tired of being ripped off. Tired of parts that don't fit. Tired of wrong advise or inconsistent advice. Then call us. We sell what we use."
I find that very ironic, but may be able to use that to my advantage...
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Resurrecting kind of an old thread )))))))))
So, what ended up happening in the end? Did you return the parts did you use them? If you used them what all did you do to make it work? I was thinking about getting the DMR kit - before I saw this thread. Let me know when you get the chance, I'm getting a 455 engine in December and would probably order pulleys/belts in January...
January 13th, 2016, 02:04 PM
