Electric Fuel Pump

Old March 8th, 2019, 01:31 PM
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Question Electric Fuel Pump

Hello!

This is in reference to the new engine about to be installed in my '72 Cutlass:

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...lt-mark-r.html

I'm going to need to upgrade to a new electric fuel pump system. This is new to me. Any good info or recommendations on which parts to go with for reliability? I'm not sure what all is entailed. If it helps, the carb will be 830cfm and looking mid-500hp.

Is there good kits out there that come with everytthing I'd need?

Thanks!
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Old March 8th, 2019, 01:59 PM
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I've been running Edelbrock Quiet Flo pump, internally regulated, for last 5 years on my 463. No issues whatsoever. 100 micron filter before pump, 40 micron after. I have it wired through VW/Audi relay that picks up a tach signal from the distributor. With ignition on, relay will run the pump for 3-4 seconds and then it shuts off unless the distributor is firing. Basically when engine is not running, pump is not running. Relay is close to the battery, 12 gauge wire running to the pump.

Edit: thatís a 10awg wire running from relay to the pump.

Last edited by 70cutty; March 8th, 2019 at 06:54 PM.
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Old March 10th, 2019, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by 70cutty View Post
I've been running Edelbrock Quiet Flo pump, internally regulated, for last 5 years on my 463. No issues whatsoever. 100 micron filter before pump, 40 micron after. I have it wired through VW/Audi relay that picks up a tach signal from the distributor. With ignition on, relay will run the pump for 3-4 seconds and then it shuts off unless the distributor is firing. Basically when engine is not running, pump is not running. Relay is close to the battery, 12 gauge wire running to the pump.

Edit: thatís a 10awg wire running from relay to the pump.
Thanks for the tip! I'm glad you have first hand experience. Almost every review (and another from a forum member) said the unit was trash, and left one person stranded and they needed a tow. I play on road-tripping with this car and that thought makes me uneasy (still)... :/
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Old March 11th, 2019, 05:36 AM
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I've used the generic electric fuel pump before on both my Olds and my diesel truck (different pumps but the same generic brand). They work pretty well. Parts stores usually carry these pumps in their aftermarket section, but this one is pretty cheap:

Amazon Amazon

If you go to an electric fuel pump make sure you install it as close to the tank as possible.
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Old March 12th, 2019, 07:59 PM
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Now I'm worried that all of the options are a 'crap-shoot' and/or 'just OK.'

I thought there would have been many more choices out there!

I appreciate all the tips from everyone thus far, thank you!
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Old March 12th, 2019, 08:30 PM
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Subscribed! Surprised to see how little CO has regarding external fuel pumps, seems much more common on the sister sites. 70cutty have any more details on the VW relay part #? Seems like it is simpler than the oil pressure setup that is also discussed.
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Old March 12th, 2019, 09:12 PM
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Do you have a stock fuel tank that you want to keep/use with your new hot engine?

There will be some issues/challenges with feeding a stout engine with a stock fuel tank, mainly that there are very few/almost zero pumps (except for Facet Lift pumps/cube pumps) that can pull fuel up vertically. The big issue is that with a stock tank comes the question of how do you intend to get the fuel out of the tank into an externally-mounted high performance electric fuel pump.

Are you wanting/willing to weld a sump onto the bottom of your stock fuel tank?


For 550+hp (you aren't likely to ever go with a weaker engine, right?), you need at 55-60gph of fuel flow at 6-7psi (carbureted-regulator pressure).


As for pump choices....

I know about Weldon performance fuel pumps, and theirs are probably the best of the best in the world, but I know you will need to put a bung in the tank or weld a sump onto the bottom, and you will need a return line for the bypass.

https://www.weldonracing.com/store/16120-A-p76948377

Not cheap at $300, but they are very well made and no junk that is Half-a$$ engineered.... it will last and is also rebuildable/servicable if ever required.

Weldon makes fuel pumps for the aeronautical industry, and their specs are second to none; their performance fuel pumps are on many winners cars, and lots of helicopters and smaller airplanes, which is their bread and butter....


Another thing to consider while running a big pump is that you could run a pulse width modulated power supply to the pump, which you can run on a potentiometer connected to the throttle shaft or simply a switch or dial that you turn when you want full un-modulated 12+V to the pump. A PWM controller simply turns the 12+V power on and off at a high speed in a square wave form instead of reducing the voltage to under 12+V, which could burn the pump up. Running a PWM power supply to the pump can keep it running cooler for cruising and make it last longer.

I got a very nice, compact PWM controller that can handle 50amps of load for a very affordable price (less than $40) and I can share the info on it if you are interested.


I haven't had good luck with Holley red or blue or black pumps, and now that Holley owns Mallory, I can't recommend them either. I haven't ever ran the edelbrock fuel pumps, so I can't speak to them, but it sounds like 70cutty has had a good experience.

If you didn't mind running two fuel pumps, you could do two facet Gold or dura-lift pumps Y'd together, but, if you loose a pump, you won't have enough fuel from one and could run lean and hurt the engine..... as long as you aren't spraying nitrous or running boost, it would likely just nose over if it was not being supplied sufficient fuel. You can actually mount these on the frame or even behind the fuel tank, where they draw fuel from the top of the tank, as they are lift pumps, but they are only capable of 45-50gph each, so a little short for one pump. They are typically very reliable pumps also.

These wouldn't require a fuel sump or large bung to be installed into the tank.

Last edited by Battenrunner; March 12th, 2019 at 09:42 PM.
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Old March 12th, 2019, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by teamwieland View Post
Subscribed! Surprised to see how little CO has regarding external fuel pumps, seems much more common on the sister sites. 70cutty have any more details on the VW relay part #? Seems like it is simpler than the oil pressure setup that is also discussed.
The VW relay with the ignition switch internal is part number 321 906 059C.... other part numbers : 835 54019 303 / 3.300.100


These are cool, but are limited to only 15amps, so whatever fuel pump this is used with must not have more than 15amps of draw at highest load, or you run two of these relays in parallel.

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Old March 13th, 2019, 08:48 AM
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Thanks Battenrunner . The plan is to weld a sump unless there's a simpler option. Motor has been detuned and is ready for dyno runs any day now. Guessing about 500 hp corrected, which is about 340 hp at our elevation after the 33% elevation hit. I assume that means fuel consumption is also reduced by 33%, which is roughly the increase in volume required by E85 so perhaps the increased fuel demand is a net zero. Dunno. Probably go 8-AN supply although the Earl's Vapor guard you recommended only goes to 6-AN. Thanks for the recommendation on Weldon as I don't look forward to replacing Holley pumps at $200+ a pop.
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Old March 13th, 2019, 09:34 AM
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Sure thing!

Earls speed flex PTFE does come in -8an.... also, you can now get Nicopp copper/nickel/iron hardline is now available in 1/2 size.

it is much easier to bend than stainless or steel hardline, and much more affordable than the Earls braided over PTFE...
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Old March 14th, 2019, 10:07 AM
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I think Battenrunner covered everything.
I just wanna add that another (little more pricey) option is tanks inc FI fuel tank with a Walbro fuel pump. It's more money than external fuel pump, but it's more reliable and quiet. I am looking at this right now cause in the near future I'd like to get Holley Sniper FI for my Olds. My plan is to buy a FI tank right now, run it with the regulator to the carb until I get my Sniper FI.
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Old March 14th, 2019, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by 70cutty View Post
I think Battenrunner covered everything.
I just wanna add that another (little more pricey) option is tanks inc FI fuel tank with a Walbro fuel pump. It's more money than external fuel pump, but it's more reliable and quiet. I am looking at this right now cause in the near future I'd like to get Holley Sniper FI for my Olds. My plan is to buy a FI tank right now, run it with the regulator to the carb until I get my Sniper FI.

yes, great point 70Cutty!

I have used an in-tank hi-pressure walbro 255lph fuel pump with a carburetor before, you just have to run a return line with a very good (large) bypass regulator to keep the pressure at the carb at 7psi or under.

The good bypass regulator will run $150 for one that will work, and you decide if you want to put the supply loop and return line from the carb or bypass return at the back of the car to return to the tank.
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Old March 14th, 2019, 03:07 PM
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Thank you so much for the information!

Honestly, it sounds like getting a new fuel tank with build in electric fuel pump is the way to go - I'm also looking for convenience and I do not want to mount a fuel pump externally underneath the car.

Are there any fuel tanks 'ready to instal' with a quality fuel pump installed already?

Originally Posted by Battenrunner View Post
Do you have a stock fuel tank that you want to keep/use with your new hot engine?

There will be some issues/challenges with feeding a stout engine with a stock fuel tank, mainly that there are very few/almost zero pumps (except for Facet Lift pumps/cube pumps) that can pull fuel up vertically. The big issue is that with a stock tank comes the question of how do you intend to get the fuel out of the tank into an externally-mounted high performance electric fuel pump.

Are you wanting/willing to weld a sump onto the bottom of your stock fuel tank?


For 550+hp (you aren't likely to ever go with a weaker engine, right?), you need at 55-60gph of fuel flow at 6-7psi (carbureted-regulator pressure).


As for pump choices....

I know about Weldon performance fuel pumps, and theirs are probably the best of the best in the world, but I know you will need to put a bung in the tank or weld a sump onto the bottom, and you will need a return line for the bypass.

https://www.weldonracing.com/store/16120-A-p76948377

Not cheap at $300, but they are very well made and no junk that is Half-a$$ engineered.... it will last and is also rebuildable/servicable if ever required.

Weldon makes fuel pumps for the aeronautical industry, and their specs are second to none; their performance fuel pumps are on many winners cars, and lots of helicopters and smaller airplanes, which is their bread and butter....


Another thing to consider while running a big pump is that you could run a pulse width modulated power supply to the pump, which you can run on a potentiometer connected to the throttle shaft or simply a switch or dial that you turn when you want full un-modulated 12+V to the pump. A PWM controller simply turns the 12+V power on and off at a high speed in a square wave form instead of reducing the voltage to under 12+V, which could burn the pump up. Running a PWM power supply to the pump can keep it running cooler for cruising and make it last longer.

I got a very nice, compact PWM controller that can handle 50amps of load for a very affordable price (less than $40) and I can share the info on it if you are interested.


I haven't had good luck with Holley red or blue or black pumps, and now that Holley owns Mallory, I can't recommend them either. I haven't ever ran the edelbrock fuel pumps, so I can't speak to them, but it sounds like 70cutty has had a good experience.

If you didn't mind running two fuel pumps, you could do two facet Gold or dura-lift pumps Y'd together, but, if you loose a pump, you won't have enough fuel from one and could run lean and hurt the engine..... as long as you aren't spraying nitrous or running boost, it would likely just nose over if it was not being supplied sufficient fuel. You can actually mount these on the frame or even behind the fuel tank, where they draw fuel from the top of the tank, as they are lift pumps, but they are only capable of 45-50gph each, so a little short for one pump. They are typically very reliable pumps also.

These wouldn't require a fuel sump or large bung to be installed into the tank.
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Old March 14th, 2019, 03:20 PM
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Would this work, even with a carbureted system like I'm going to have?

https://www.carid.com/aeromotive/340...96&url=5038060
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Old March 14th, 2019, 03:32 PM
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Go look at Tanks Inc.

They have good stuff and integrated EFI/in tank fuel pump setups for $500 or less.
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Old March 14th, 2019, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Battenrunner View Post
Go look at Tanks Inc.

They have good stuff and integrated EFI/in tank fuel pump setups for $500 or less.

I have a tanks inc setup in my LS swapped 71. Been running it for a few years with no starvation issues and the pump runs quiet. Only note i would add is that if you go that route the rubber gasket they use for the sending unit is crap, plan on using some good fuel rated sealer.
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Old March 14th, 2019, 04:49 PM
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I bought one for my Chevelle from this seller on Ebay, he is the cheapest vendor.
The tank in the link is for 70-72 A body. Fuel Tank

Remember you will need to run a good bypass regulator, cause that pump is for Fuel Injection.
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Old March 14th, 2019, 05:44 PM
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I like the TanksInc idea as well. I think Battenrunner suggested that to me originally when I knew I had to go E85. I just want to confirm their pumps can push enough ethanol for my build. I certainly looks like it can based on GPH but they have 1/4" outlet which seems pretty small since I'm probably going to have to use -8AN (1/2") hose. The only other concern I have is being able to drain the gas tank. If I use my stock tank and weld a sump to it I can rig a drain. With the Tanks Inc tank I don't know how to drain without a sump. I'm sure one of y'all has already figured out a way.
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Old March 14th, 2019, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by teamwieland View Post
I like the TanksInc idea as well. I think Battenrunner suggested that to me originally when I knew I had to go E85. I just want to confirm their pumps can push enough ethanol for my build. I certainly looks like it can based on GPH but they have 1/4" outlet which seems pretty small since I'm probably going to have to use -8AN (1/2") hose. The only other concern I have is being able to drain the gas tank. If I use my stock tank and weld a sump to it I can rig a drain. With the Tanks Inc tank I don't know how to drain without a sump. I'm sure one of y'all has already figured out a way.
1/4" NPT is about 1/2" pipe size or about equal to -8AN
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Old March 14th, 2019, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by teamwieland View Post
I like the TanksInc idea as well. I think Battenrunner suggested that to me originally when I knew I had to go E85. I just want to confirm their pumps can push enough ethanol for my build. I certainly looks like it can based on GPH but they have 1/4" outlet which seems pretty small since I'm probably going to have to use -8AN (1/2") hose. The only other concern I have is being able to drain the gas tank. If I use my stock tank and weld a sump to it I can rig a drain. With the Tanks Inc tank I don't know how to drain without a sump. I'm sure one of y'all has already figured out a way.

You Can wire your fuel pump up to 12V power relay with the fuel line disconnected and drain it with the in tank pump.
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Old March 14th, 2019, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Battenrunner View Post
Go look at Tanks Inc.

They have good stuff and integrated EFI/in tank fuel pump setups for $500 or less.
Awesome - I will check them out, thank you!

Originally Posted by ach1992880 View Post
I have a tanks inc setup in my LS swapped 71. Been running it for a few years with no starvation issues and the pump runs quiet. Only note i would add is that if you go that route the rubber gasket they use for the sending unit is crap, plan on using some good fuel rated sealer.
Good tips - this is really good to know.

Originally Posted by 70cutty View Post
I bought one for my Chevelle from this seller on Ebay, he is the cheapest vendor.
The tank in the link is for 70-72 A body. Fuel Tank

Remember you will need to run a good bypass regulator, cause that pump is for Fuel Injection.
Thanks! I will check this out, also.

Which bypass regulator did you go with?
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Old March 14th, 2019, 10:54 PM
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Old March 14th, 2019, 11:18 PM
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The Aeromotive fuel tank system is very nice. My only complaint is that I havenít always had stellar luck with their fuel pumps that I used in the past. I only ever had an A1000 on my personal car and a guy with a Buick Grand National I knew had issues with his and replaced it with a Weldon which was also much quieter than the A1000.

Their in-tank pumps are likely much better and may be just re-packaged walbro GSS340 pumps.

I personally like the 400lph and 525lph oem pumps available for the tanks INC tanks because of the additional volume of fuel required for E85.

I also hope to drive our car at a lower elevation track which will put much more fuel demand on the system than the power and volume required at 6,000+ feet.
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Old March 14th, 2019, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Battenrunner View Post
The Aeromotive fuel tank system is very nice. My only complaint is that I haven’t always had stellar luck with their fuel pumps that I used in the past. I only ever had an A1000 on my personal car and a guy with a Buick Grand National I knew had issues with his and replaced it with a Weldon which was also much quieter than the A1000.

Their in-tank pumps are likely much better and may be just re-packaged walbro GSS340 pumps.

I personally like the 400lph and 525lph oem pumps available for the tanks INC tanks because of the additional volume of fuel required for E85.

I also hope to drive our car at a lower elevation track which will put much more fuel demand on the system than the power and volume required at 6,000+ feet.
I have both setups the Tanks version with the walbro pump and Aeromotive setup (both versions as well) The only issue I’ve had is with the tanks setup if you plan to leave hard it will run out of gas even on street tires. I’ve had to put a hydromat in it to cure the starvation issues. With any traction it’ll go lean quickly without it.
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Old March 15th, 2019, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Qwik71442 View Post


I have both setups the Tanks version with the walbro pump and Aeromotive setup (both versions as well) The only issue Iíve had is with the tanks setup if you plan to leave hard it will run out of gas even on street tires. Iíve had to put a hydromat in it to cure the starvation issues. With any traction itíll go lean quickly without it.

Awesome info, tanks for sharing that! Haha

It is rare to find someone with a direct experience with both tank setups and in a drag/ hi-performance use.

The hydromat is an expensive fix to add to what should have been pre-engineered with an excellent baffle...... that sucks.

It looks like I will be calling Aeromotive to see what the cost is of their setup without a fuel pump installed if they will sell it like that.

We already have a swirl pot with twin Bosch -044ís that I might just run, as that wonít starve out if fed with a good lift pump.



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Old March 15th, 2019, 08:42 AM
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Iíve read somewhere that both Holley and aeromotive use tanks inc fuel tanks.

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Old March 15th, 2019, 08:59 AM
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It looks like it.

The big differences are how they baffle and how they plumb out of the tank for fuel capacity/sizes.

With me wanting to use E85, the 6an fittings will only carry a max of about 600hp of E85 in use with EFI, which may be less than our combo makes at sea level.

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Old March 15th, 2019, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by 70cutty View Post
Iíve read somewhere that both Holley and aeromotive use tanks inc fuel tanks.

Not sure about the Holley setup but the Gen 1 Aeromotive uses the tanks inc tank with the loose neck & the Gen 2 Aeromotive is like a factory tank with fixed neck.
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Old March 15th, 2019, 05:23 PM
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I had starvation problems with the old Tanks/Aeromotive set up. There is now a new tank that has a series of baffles & instantly solved my problem. So, if you go that route be sure you are getting the new style tank. One way to insure that is what you get is to go with the clipped/angled style front corners that allow more tire & exhaust clearance, those are all ďnewĒ style. Corners can only be seen from under the car & look normal though not correct.

Last edited by bccan; March 15th, 2019 at 05:25 PM.
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Old March 15th, 2019, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by bccan View Post
I had starvation problems with the old Tanks/Aeromotive set up. There is now a new tank that has a series of baffles & instantly solved my problem. So, if you go that route be sure you are getting the new style tank. One way to insure that is what you get is to go with the clipped/angled style front corners that allow more tire & exhaust clearance, those are all ďnewĒ style. Corners can only be seen from under the car & look normal though not correct.

Good to know, I was debating whether to get that tank or not. Thank you.
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Old March 16th, 2019, 12:53 AM
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This has turned into a great and very informative thread, everyone! I'm sure this is much appreciated to lots of others, not just myself!

I've been talking to Kory at Tanks Inc., and attached is a photo of the screenshot of items he recommended for everything I would need for my fresh new fuel system rebuild, including the new gas tank design with internal baffles to prevent fuel starvation.

Let me know what y'all think?

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Old March 16th, 2019, 07:06 AM
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That looks pretty soup to nuts other than a wiring kit for the pump. Thanks for sharing the parts list.
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Old March 16th, 2019, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by teamwieland View Post
That looks pretty soup to nuts other than a wiring kit for the pump. Thanks for sharing the parts list.
Other than the wiring kit for the pump?

Of course!
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Old April 11th, 2019, 07:09 PM
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I went the sump/external pump route and I'm starting to think I should have done the tanks inc route. I had my tuner pick out a pump and he went with a Magnafuel (made here in Colorado Springs), which are pricey but definitely appear to be high quality. The Quickstar 275 with the integrated filter is pretty darn big and I'm starting to wonder if it will even fit under the car. Curious is anyone has mounted any of the larger pumps under an A Body and where you managed to squeeze it in. Bonus points for pics.
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Old April 11th, 2019, 11:10 PM
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Very early picture, and wont exactly work with that magnafuel setup as in this, but this is one option. Routing the lines behind the tank. Filler neck goes through that notch you see on rack i made. From there the whole package is really easy serviced, either cleaning pre-filter, or swapping out crapped fuel-pump. Its almost level with bumber, so you wont see nothing behind. Plus electrics are just above on trunk. Anyone else hate how they colour fuel-line stuff with those "fancy" red, blue etc colours...


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Old April 12th, 2019, 11:39 AM
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Very nice Inline. The Magnafuel is a bit taller and would stick out under the bumper if I did that. I think I am going to mount it in front of fuel tank behind rear diff. More to come
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Old April 18th, 2019, 09:30 AM
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Well I'm glad I went the direction I did, and TanksInc's new gas tank with baffles to reduce starvation issues is the way to go. I can post updates for everyone once installed if anyone would like. Thanks everyone for the help!
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