380 Racer

OK here is a post on ROP that a very good friend of mine made.

http://www.realoldspower.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=84143

It's a very nice STREET engine. The only engine I ever grenaded was caused by the head of a large CHEAP valve that broke the head off. Buy good quality **** and not only will it perform better but will last longer. WTF is so hard to understand about that?

coppercutlass

my heads got good valves in em ferrea valves's . That is a bbo with eddy heads right ? this thread is for an sbo. he can rebuild his heads and still have plenty of power and put good parts in it. My heads where complety rebuilt everything new. we are talking heads here not my shortblock . i read a little more that engine cost well over 5k. Alot of guys run iron heads still not everyone has money sorry for thinking budget friendly and being realistic here. He can have a stout runner and still run iron heads .

droptopron

IDK if anyone threw this out there (too much BS on this thread) but EBrocks need to be modified to run a mechanical pump on a SBO or run an electric. For a 90% street car you may not want that.

ah64pilot

You can run a stock pump with no modification. For a "STREET" SBO that should be plenty. But it should be noted that the silver car picked up .6 in the 1/4 by switching to electric. Ha! How's that? I just realized I made more gains from a fuel pump than someone else did with a new engine lol!

coppercutlass

Didn't your car have fuel starvation issues so from the get go so it was not running at it's full pontential. So calling it a gain is kinda invalid since it was not performing properly first time around.

Bernhard

Car has a electric pump,car is a street strip car from the 80's and has 80's street drag race suspension.Car will be driven 90% on the street.

The price of Ebrock heads are so close to pro comps why would any one buy them? He will not be buying any off shore head to save a dollar.

The budget is $5000 but I have never sean a engine build stay on budget just like a goverment run project they are always over there budget.

The $5000 budget is so that he dose not end up with a $10,000 engine as nice as these engines are its over kill for his goals.

380 is right there are so few pro's grinding iron heads anymore,I was told buy one local guy that no one wants to pay $$$ to have them done. Because they can buy better of the shelf heads.

ah64pilot

Yes, you are right...I'm sorry, it did have starvation issues. It ran 12.73 at 105 in February...and then I changed the fuel pump to electric and it ran 12.11 at 112 in May with a blown head gasket for a GAIN of .62 seconds.

Now it has new head gaskets and a little higher compression...so is it not a gain when I go back and run 11.90's? Or are you going to say "Well, because you had a blown head gasket problem it's not really a gain...it wasn't running at it's full potential"?

How about when I fix the suspension and go 11.60's? Are you gonna say, "Well, because you had stock suspension it wasn't running at it's full potential"?

Or what if I change the gear and go 11.40's? What then? You see, this sport is about correcting what's wrong and making it go faster...I would like to see you get that, but it seems you're so intent on doing the same crap over and over.

It's ok Copper...you don't have to argue everything, you can let something be once in a while. And when someone corrects you in a post take it with a grain of salt, don't post the same apologetic crap in every thread you come across...it's getting old. If you find yourself constantly defending your posts take a step back and try to see the other point of view. It's ok to be wrong. Sure, maybe your pride is hurt a little...but people will have more respect for you when you admit your mistake or at the very least shut up about it and move on.

coppercutlass

Is there any goals for this car ? hp/ e.t. wise. @ BERNHARD. @ Steve working the bugs out and getting it to run constant with no issues is what i call my base line . When i ran my car the fastest i got it to run was 13.3 it would not budge. Over the winter i did some things but never got to see the gain but im sure i would have seen a jumo in numbers . suspension and stuff like that yeah it is a gain. To me if i have a distributor problem which i have and then fix it and take it back and it runs faster i would not call it a gain it's just running properly now. I take it from there. number wise yeah it's a gain . I just like to look at it that way and give my self a challange . i get it running as fast as i can as it as long as there is no failure then i do mods and changes. Im sorry steve some guys on here are being reall @ss wads so yes im gonna be an a$$hole right back. Im sorry but when some one starts to pick on you in every post it gets old. i have taken advice from guys before but it is how you go about it. Just because certain people think it's right does not make it so. For ex. democrats think they are right and republicans too. who is really right both have diffrent thoughts and beliefs ? it's rediculous but im not letting down becasue in the long run these people's colors ar starting to show and what they say catches back up with them. I never disagreed with anyone i just look at things diffrently i never said they where wrong. So who really looks dumb the guy who is on the fence and really looks at both sides or the guy who repeatedly say's his way is correct with out accepting the fact guys have other ways to do things. I said this before and i"ll say it again there is more than one way to skin a cat . I dont care who's toes i stomp on or who get's mad.

captjim

You called me a fool, told me I need to use a dictionary and "spell check", (which coming from you directed towards anyone is ridiculous, your posts are terrible), and that I should "think before I speak" so expect to get you ***** busted in return.

Every thread you participate in soon turns to you and what you have done. You say the same things over and over. I will restate, Mark builds engines for a living and posted this,
"Since the introduction of the Procomps, I'm not sure why anyone would do the stock irons unless they only needed very little work."

Again, pretty much says it all. I have iron heads on my 355, Pro Comps were not an option. I have around $750 in them but did the valve work at the shop, I paid a guy to port them. The head porter at our shop refused to port iron heads. Car runs great, no complaints, but the aluminum heads start where mine left off.

captjim

You are finding out what most already know, iron heads are a lot of work and it costs to get them right.
I am not certain, but aren't the Pro-Comps significantly cheaper?

captjim

This post is representative of what I was referring to. Rambling, bad spelling, bad grammar, and hard to read and understand.

"Over the winter i did some things but never got to see the gain but im sure i would have seen a jumo in numbers"

You never saw those gains because the engine blew up, correct?

One thing I HATE is guys saying, "I ran xxx but would have been xxx if not for.......... The number you ran is the number you ran, no excuses. My PB is 12.7, not bad for a 3800 lb car with a mild 355 shifting at 4800 that I drove to the track. And one evening I had my azz handed to me by this huge dually with a turbo diesel running low 12s.

coppercutlass

ok so you go back to insulting pretty much. You didnt aswer my question if you can build an aluminum headed sbo for 5000 since that "was" his budget. It didn"t actually blow up it started to make noise so i took it out and found some stuff that had internal engine damage. It ran till the day i pulled it out. You are fool because you go on and on about how proper stuff should be but when something like this comes up and a budget is set everyone goes overboard oh yeah use this this and this. I'ts real easy to spend someone elses money not everyone has that money i know i dont. I built what i could with what i had and knew the risk's i was taking. You seem to pick and choose what to pick on me for but i still am yet to get some good comebacks for all the other stuff i metioned. Im done here you can give an honest opinion with out getting correct harrased and pretty much called stupid. I said my iron heads cost me 1445 with all the parts mentioned. the edelbrock heads cost 1730 + 265 for rockers plus 100 for pushrods. so that makes 2095. If he is just looking for a strong street runner like yours running 12.7 which is great for a street driven sbo then why not just spend the 600 dollars else where that he will save vs. the iron heads. Again to me thats common sense he is mainly gonna drive it on the street so the need for weight savings or the big flow numbers since it isn't really neccessary since it's a street car. That is just my opinon what i would do .It does not make it wrong now does it. So why do you guys argue your point like i said you guys where wrong. So now who looks dumb. The guy with his opinion or the guy who thinks someone's own opinion is wrong. It's an opinion not a fact. What personal experience do you have with the procomps that you recommend them to people for all you know they could be horrible flimsy and fail very fast like other foreign parts that have for other people in this site.

captjim

Here are prices for a short block,
Machine work, clean, bore, hone, align hone,
Cam bearings installed, deck .015 $700
Crank work, cut .010 on mains and rods $300
And balance
Rods, recondition and resize $100
MACHINE SHOP TOTAL $1100

PARTS
Bottom end,
Speed Pro 2320F30 $420
ARP rod bolts 184-6001 $ 62
ARP main bolts 184-5001 $ 36
Rebuild kit, rings, bearings, gaskets $230
Oil pump, stock SP Z224 $ 43
Cam bearings Clevite SH1354S $ 25
Oil pump drive shaft Melling IS-22F $ 13
Cloyes timing chain 9-1113 $ 67
Cam and lifters, springs varies
greatly, low end is $400
Freeze plugs SP Z381 $ 12

TOTAL PARTS SHORT BLOCK $1308

That is $2408 for the short block, call it $2500. That is complete, with cam and lifters. So, are you telling me you can't put aftermarket heads and intake on even with some milling for $2500???????

coppercutlass

you need new bolts/studs too, for the heads, fuel pump block off, it's all the pidley crap that adds up . and you are gonna want to run apr intake bolts too dont want you engine looking like carp now with new heads etc. You wont be able to stick to the 5k budget let's face it . I understand that by 5k another few hundered bucks aint much but you are over budget. You still only managed to answer one of my question's. Anyway im done just done you can go on and build a 5k aluminum heads sbo but untill you do i will not belive that you can do it for 5k thats it. I was just looking to stick with the budget the op said which no one else cared to do so . Im unsuscribing to this thread because some people dont take opinions for what they are and no one seem's to follow what the op stated the 5k budget which he is now saying he might go over and knows he probably will well that would have been good info from the get go. Dont set a budget if you arent gonna stay within because ut renders the budget llimitation useless.

captjim

You are just making yourself look more and more like a jerk, if that is possible. You are wrong and just won't admit it. It then puts into question all of the other things you argue about. I showed you plainly that it can be done, building a STOUT short block with new rod and main bolts and forged pistons. At $2500 for the heads there is plenty of room for incidental expenses.

captjim

I love fish, so it would be fantastic if my engine looked like CARP!! LOL Goofball

coppercutlass

yeah you didnt take into consideration head bolt's now did you or any of those things. who will seriously run stock head and intake bolts on a new aluminum heads. It's a valid point. yes i was being a jerk and i am proud of it. Sorry if i mispell things i admit i dont go back and spell check because im on my phone doing this. How am i wrong i just stated how you will be over budget it's hard to leave when stupid comments like that are made. If you build and engine will you run it with stock intake and head bolts. dont think so .

captjim

More bad math and information from you. You stated $300, yet cost for new head bolts, intake bolts, and block off plate is less than half that, around $130
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ARP-180-3700/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-8514/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CTR-21-964/

Again, the $2500 for new heads more than allows for these things, IMO.

Bernhard

Jim out of the box pro comps are cheeper but after they are redone at a quality shop they are not from what I have read of posts on these heads. I have also read that the valve spring Ebrock ships the head with are not the best.So even an out of the box Ebrock will need a little money springs and resurface. My friends and I have a hard time with off shore anything.

On the build that you posted how do you think the Ebrock head would work.

captjim

Personally, with 3.73 gears and 3000 stall, I think they would be fine, but get opinions from guys that have built one. Mill to ger CR in the high 9's, cam in the 220@ .050 neighborhood, should be fun to drive. It might be a tad soggy down low, but you won't be spending much time there.

380 Racer

You were talking STREET, so was I. Jim is right.......you just have your head where the sun don't shine. You are trying to convince me that you have the ultimate cheap-*** build. Sorry I have been there and learned from my mistakes. Really getting tired of hearing how little you have spent on heads atop an expired engine.

captjim

"yeah you didnt take into consideration head bolt's now did you or any of those things. who will seriously run stock head and intake bolts on a new aluminum heads. It's a valid point. "
I addressed this, $115 for new head and intake bolts.

"yes i was being a jerk and i am proud of it."
Says a lot about you

"Sorry if i mispell things i admit i dont go back and spell check because im on my phone doing this."
That's fine, just don't critisize others when you are absolutely the worst on this site in that regard. If you put the same attention to detail in your engines that you do in your posts......oh wait, maybe you do

"How am i wrong i just stated how you will be over budget it's hard to leave when stupid comments like that are made."
Keep calling me stupid, it is working out well for you. I showed that a $5000 355 using quality parts and aluminum heads is easily done.

"If you build and engine will you run it with stock intake and head bolts. dont think so "
I have done so many times with zero issues. My failure rate is zero percent, unlike yours which is 50%

droptopron

This is what I was thinking of. It was with an aftermkt pump

http://72.22.90.30/phpBB2/viewtopic....pump+clearance

olds 307 and 403

I have read 240 cfm on the old castings. Flow benched by Car Craft, back cutting valves were worth 10 cfm. I believe BTR got 275 intake with a bigger intake valve, new castings. Bernard Mondello's Pro Comps are around $1300 and he would go to 70cc chamber wise.

coppercutlass

sorry to me 1445 was alot of money but i knew rrp did em right how was that spending little. It got new retainers sprigs the works when i said fully rebuilt i meant it., im confused by your statement nick what do you mean by how little i paid for my heads ? Some people said i overpaid for what i got. Im happy in the end. Im not trying to convince you nick. If you can find a statement where i say this is what you should be belivingthis or that do it . I was voicing my opinion . Jim 50 percent i"ll take it im sure alot of engine builders dont have 100% success rate considering they have alot of variables out of their control like quality control on parts they buy . It was a success to me ran all summer beat the tar out of it and most of the expensive stuff gets to be re used . Im happy with that.

cutlassefi

We're going to find out aren't we?

ah64pilot

That is like saying my heart worked until it got clogged...well yeah you're right, but is the engine still running? No...so it's dead...

Does anyone else feel like they are watching a Monty Python "And now for something completely different" skit play out? - The parrot scene lol!

Jim, what'd your 355 run? A best of 12.7? And is it still in the car running? Yes? So you spent $4000 on ONE engine that ran 12.7 and is still in the car. Copper, how much did you spend on the first engine? And now the 2nd? And you still haven't clocked a PB of less than 13.3? Hmm...seems like there is some backward logic to me.

Anyway, this is getting tiring.

captjim

Your engine did not fail because of defective parts. Very few builders have a 100% success rate, but none have a 50% rate or they are out of business. Just my opinion, but if you consider half of your engines failing acceptable then you have no business giving anyone advice. I bet there are few, if any, members of this forum who would consider 50% acceptable.

captjim

That engine ran 13.9 n/a and 12.7 with a 100 HP shot. Engine is now in Joe Viteks car, still running great. It actually cost less as there was less head work and cast pistons. The second one cost is low as I was working at a shop at the time and got all machine work done free and parts at cost. IMO, that engine would cost as listed in my budget, $4000 or so, maybe a tad more for port work. Still in the car and running great.

380 Racer

Well Mr Cooper, you brag how you "only" have $1445 in your heads but you are comparing apples to oranges. Your non-ported #6s won't come close to performing like an E-brock out of the box. So I'm with Steve,Jim,Mark........I'm tired of this ****.

cutlassefi

You have friends Nick? Wow

Well you're probably doing better than me, I just went toe to toe with some moron on one if the EFI forums.
Ain't the internet great!!!

Have a good one!! Or two!

olds 307 and 403

Mark,are you flow benching a set? The Procomp's flow around the same according Bernard's numbers.Some of the Ebay sellers wouldn't mill the Pro Comp's, supposedly they were machine shops.

coppercutlass

Now jim say's nitrous. Mine ran 13.3 n/a I still spen 1000 less than him. Not bragging but those are the facts.

captjim

All the old timers know that, never hid it. Again, it does not matter how I did it, I ran a 12.7, period. I wanted a car that was mild with great manners, got 18 mpg, was fun to drive then on race day push a button and be quick enough to be fun. I accomplished that. Does it "not count" if a guy runs a bigger engine or turbo? My current 355 should run a high 12, but until it does, it hasn't. Your car ran 13.3, that a decent number. But, it should have been faster, it had more compression, more gear, and less weight.
And here is the point that we have been trying to drive home. Yes, you spent $1000 less. But guess what? YOUR JUNK DID NOT STAY TOGETHER! So what good is the money you saved???

coppercutlass

I built it well knowing it wasn't gonna live long . It gave me anought time to build what I'm building now. It could have gone faster if I had money for a bigger carb and converter from the get go. But I didn't but I learned what works and what does not.

captjim

That makes no sense, if you built it well it WOULD have lived long.

Listen, here is the thing. I don't care what you have done or not done. The problem I have is you giving advice using claims that are incomplete at best and dishonest at worst. Then, guys leave thinking $2500 is a reasonable budget for a rebuilt engine. They leave thinking it is OK to run 10 to 1 on the street. And on and on. You can continue posting your nonsense and I won't respond, but if I see you making those statements in other threads as a means of instructing or giving advice and I disagree with it, I'm calling you on it.

coppercutlass

My 2500 dollar engine is still together and it's 9 to 1 compression.

ah64pilot

Faster is faster...but the fact that he sprayed it AND it still runs is a testament to how it was built...

Are we in high school? I mean, you argue EVERYTHING! You even do it on facebook! Dude, you're 22...learn to let stuff go! You are making a bad name for yourself for nothing...you're a nice guy, you don't need to bicker with everyone that has a different idea than you.

Give an opinion, and then shut up and listen. You don't know everything. I don't know everything...but I know when to listen, and that is the key difference I see. You learn a hell of a lot more when you shut your mouth and pay attention to the guys that have been there and done it.

WE KNOW! We've heard that over 1,500 times now...I believe most of us are past the point of caring.

cutlassefi

Yes, trying to clean up a set if BBO irons as well but well see. Should happen in the next week or two.

380 Racer

Yes, it is amazing.........isn't it?.........LOL.