Bernhard

At what point would it make sence to run the Ebrock head on a sbo? Yes I have sean the 510hp small block and it is a very nice build, killer street engine. But would the Ebrocks work on a $5000 build and still have street manners with 373 gear and 3000 stall converter and a 6000 shift piont.

coppercutlass

imo. There a few good reasons and bad reason's. My personal reasons for not running aluminum heads is price vs. use and potential. I run the same gear and shift at 6k rpm but i dont race it everyday and dont run enough compression to worry about my self or see the full flow potential of the heads. I got my 6 heads re worked by rocket racing it cost me 1445 with all new valves bowl work and new roller tip rockers push rods guides studs. etc. John at rocket racing told me you can run 12's on the heads you got with no porting. He actually advised me to to port them when i said i was thinking of sending them back for more work. I cant really say hp wise because i go by e.t. and im getting close to that goal. The iron heads i ran made my previous combo really work as good as it did. On the other hand if you plan on building a future higher hp engine then the ebrock might be an investment. It comes down to what your pocket allows and your goals and what you might do down the road. alot of guys run ebrock heads on the street and are probably more than happy. I also dont see my self running faster than 12's it starts to get expensive so for me the ebrocks arent a good investment at the time being atleast.

ihengineer76

This is a bit of a broad question as you don't list any specifics of you build. If you are running flat top pistons, the larger chamber of the Ebrock heads can keep your CR lower to run pump gas. They also have more quench area and are also lighter than the cast heads.
Here are a few of the problems you may have with them. If this is going to be a mainly street car, you will be running in the lower RPM range and torque will be more of a need. The large intake ports of the Ebrock heads will lower the velocity of the air/fuel mix and allow possibly allow it to come out of suspension and puddle. If you are going to run any kind of a dish piston, your CR will be quite low thus limiting your cam choices. You will also need to run the Performer RPM manifold, which is a good manifold, but port matching will be a must. The price is also a big factor. For about half the price, you can have a set of iron heads rebuilt with maybe a little port work included depending on the shop rate of who you take them to. Use the rest of the money for other parts of the car. All else equal, an iron head will create more HP than an aluminum one. High CR, wieght, and need for high flow are the main reasons for going to this head, which I don't think are major concerns for you build, but correct me if I am wrong. Just some food for though.

Tom

380 Racer

From my past experiences with porting iron heads, I would go E-brocks right away. You have to modify them right off the bat also or change to higher comp oistons. It's getting harder and harder to find somebody to port iron heads, as in the SBs. I had around $1500 in my #7s and they turned into a sprinkler system.

coppercutlass

But to what extent did you use iron heads. I think you might have been going for all out comp. Just like anything iron heads have their limits. I know a few guys running iron heads on their sbo's running 10's but they where not street engines.

Bernhard

The $ 5000 budget tells you what kind of build it is non roller cam/sealed power piston flat tops/non stroker engine.The cost to rebuild the iron heads is geting close to out of the box ebrocks. The basic ? is it to much head for a budget street engine. The $5000 budget. You build the engine, and does not include carb/dist/headers or engine core.

Bernhard

380 racer had one of the fasted sbo gas block factory iron headed door cars on the planet

No power adders

coppercutlass

What are you having done to the heads that cost close to what box ebrocks cost? For me just the heads not inclusing roller tip rockers or push rods etc. Cost 1050 alone. You will still need rockers and what not for the ebrocks.

coppercutlass

I know his car is nasty fast. I'm just saying his application compared to what you are doing is like comparing apples to oranges. I have seen his car run and it is one bad *****.

captjim

I have never heard anyone say this, can you please elaborate on this? Thanks.

coppercutlass

My heads where fully re done. They weren't half assed. I spent 1445 with rockers pushrods etc. I said rocket racing did em and every part on the heads was replace and machined cleaned fluxed etc. So it's proper in your words. How is that half assed. He did everything but port them. Oh yeah they cleaned the bowls up for free for me too.

coppercutlass

You give me crap yet you tell him the same thing I did. That he will be fine with iron heads. Dude let it go.

Bernhard

I'm building a iron headed 403,my heads are done so it is two late for my build. A good friend is building a 350. $1500 to port and polish, w31 size int/ex ss valves, resurface,springs ,retainers and flow bench results at a quality local shop.So they are getting close to ebrock range.

coppercutlass

I see jim deleted his previous post bashing me bahahaha so much for reading. Sorry I just had to. But yeah with porting my heads would have run 2045 it would have added 600 for s porting job for what I was planning on running.
Quote:
This is one more indication that you really need to think and not post in every single thread. It also shows your lack of real-worl experience and cost. You are so used to doing everything half-azzed.
Take iron heads, new valves, new guides, decent valve job and you are close to $700. Now, start porting. Nick DOES have real-world experience and he is correct; fewer and fewer shops are messing with iron when it comes to porting.

captjim

Since you feel the need to run your mouth, I will re-post what I deleted. You are so used to doing things half-azzed that you are not aware of current real-world costs. Nick is correct, IMO, most shops want no part of porting iron heads and by the time you get all the guides, valves, and port work you are pretty close to E-brocks. You just admitted that you spent a lot on your iron heads, and Bernhard got an estimate that reflected the cost of iron heads.

Copper, you have never build a SBO with aluminum heads, correct?

That said, it does not mean the E-brocks are a better choice, but in his application with that gear, converter, and the right cam, I think he will be quite happy with it. Iron SBO heads will be fine, too.

captjim

The fact that I deleted it should have told you I thought better about posting it. But, you are an *******, and brought it back. Fine. And you DO need to think bvefore you post and not feel the need to SAY THE SAME THING IN EVERY FRIGGIN THREAD!!

BTW, I'm out, see you boys later

coppercutlass

i already re posted it. No i have never built and sbo with aluminum heads but i have talked about it with alot of people for future refrence and if i go aluminum im going rrp heads . Some know more than me but i did not give false informantion . I just simply voiced my opinion on the matter at hand. i did start going off at the mouth calling people out. I said what it cost me to do my iron heads with quality parts from a reputable olds engine builder.

coppercutlass

Btw i did what you did to me you tore into everthing i said quoted me and bashed me. It shows the kind of guy you are when you cant man up to what you say. I stuck through it and in the end your true colors are starting to show. SEE YA .

bccan

Just to throw a few bags of pop rocks into the litter box, I'll throw another variable into this. I have my old 350 w/ fairly stout short block & If it were put back in service (probably as next step up in the red car) I would be calling Bernard Mondello & putting a set of cleaned up Pro Comp heads on it, cc'd (milled) if necessary to tailor the CR for the flat tops. If it got close in $$ to Edelbrocks or I found a fresh set used @ a good price I would probably go that route.

One thing not brought up yet is to put a set of stock BBO heads w/ just a decent valve job & hdwe but iron will still limit you to a slightly lower CR than aluminum. That might be a good comprimise on a mid budget build like this.

ihengineer76

Sure, no problem. If the physical dimensions of the heads are the same, i.e. exact same castings, it all comes down to material properties. The cast iron is more resistive to heat transfer, so upon combustion more of the heat energy stays in the chamber. An aluminum head will absorb more heat energy and pass it on to the coolant. Heat transferred to coolant = heat lost = energy lost = horsepower lost. This is also why aluminum heads are able to take higher compression on the same fuel without pinging. The aluminum allows heat to transfer away from the surface of the compustion chamber thus lowering temperatures in the chamber. The difference in horsepower may only be 2 to 5 percent, but on a 500 hp engine, that still ads up to 10 to 25 hp. Like I said before, this all is only true if the heads are the same. Us Olds guys don't have that option, but it does hold true for a lot of sbc heads.

This points out that there is both advantages and disadvantages to each head. To the O.P., I guess you can just weigh your options. Do you think you will need the increased flow and larger chamber? Talk to some engine shops and see what they would charge you for getting a head rebuilt. You would be surprised what just a little clean up work, good valve job, and taking out the exhaust port bumps will do. If you want to have a new head straight out of the box, not mess around with machining and are willing to spend a little more coin, then go with the Ebrocks. They are a good head.

380 Racer

I have heard this before, but.....The main reason for installing an aluminum head on a SBO is for performance. Not sure why you would do an exact head swap. An iron head is going to be right on the edge of today's gas with iron heads and 10:1 compression. You mill the E-brocks, get 10.25 or even 10.5 to 1 or use higher compression pistons, you will also gain flow numbers. Both will equal more power and will out-gain a 10:1 iron headed motor without detonation. If you can afford it= a no brainer?

380 Racer

Oh ya, this is all IMO.

cutlassefi

x2

ah64pilot

I think he should get Batten heads and intake and run those. They are the best, I know...from someone else's probable experience. I mean, they are the biggest runners and can make the most horsepower on a big block, why not on a small block...at least that's what my buddy says. I personally have no experience with them but I assure you, I'm giving you VERY accurate information...at least I think so.

Seriously,

Eddy heads are good...and for what he would have in a set of iron heads he may just as well get them. There are a few ways to manipulate them or the block / pistons to get the compression up. I run them w/ 10.65:1 compression on a big block car with 93 octane and 10% mix of C-12 (108 leaded) just to be safe. If he sticks close to 10:1 or just above he should be just fine on pump gas 93. I say tell him to go for it...they also make the engine look badass sitting in the engine compartment

olds 307 and 403

I wish Edelbrock would offer their heads in 2 chamber sizes. Really the 188cc intake ports aren't huge just a bit big for mild builds. If I ever get my 403 build done, then no doubt Edelbrock's will go on. Why put on heavier heads that flow less? Around here to match Edelbrock's flow, I guarantee they would cost more to build iron.

coppercutlass

All I'm saying is. A reputable olds builder told me my heads with just bowl work will work good intp the 12's I have a total of 1445 into them that's with rocker arms "roller tip" new push rods guides and studs etc. I don't think edelbrocks come with new roller rockers and if you already went aluminum you are gonna invest in 400 dollar harland sharp new pushrods all said in done you probably will spend 3k. Oh yeah I got big valves and bigger springs the works like I mentioned earlier

380 Racer

What do the Edelbrocks flow "out of the box"?

cutlassefi

You need to check your math. And all the alunimum heads already come with the "big valves" and better springs.
Harland Sharps for E's or ProComps are about $250.00, not $400.00.
If you change rockers then you'll probably need to change the pushrods as well already, that's a wash. Main difference is you'll need to port the intake on a small block.
And I won't go into the advantages of aluminum over iron heads, that's already been discussed. Needless to say aluminum is a big advantage over irons, for about the same money. Since the introduction of the Procomps, I'm not sure why anyone would do the stock irons unless they only needed very little work.

Jmo

captjim

So, you are basing your advice to use SBO iron heads on second hand information and NOT personal experience, correct? Meanwhile, several guys in this thread with many years of racing and building recommend aftermarket aluminum. So, the OP should listen to you and not the guys who have actually done it, correct. You had these same heads on a 350 Olds and ran a 13.3, not 12s, correct (before it blew up).

Nick, why does this all seem so familiar?????

captjim

Mark, you are just being hard-headed. And so is Nick. Copper says that iron headed stock 350 heads are the best choice, so that is that. Please defer to his experience, he knows best. Just ask him.

captjim

I thought you might be going there. I was of the same opinion, but some recent thoughts are that the increase in Cr is due more to chamber design than to the material. But again, so much of this hobby is opinion.
Also, the aluminum heads are lighter, and while that doesn't make more power, it does make the car quicker, even if by a small margin. Especially in engines with heavy heads (BBC, BBF). Racers know that weight off the nose is crucial. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

cutlassefi

I'm going to dangle a carrot here gentlemen.
On monday I will have in my posession 1 set of bare Procomp heads along with 1 set of bare Edelbrocks, the new style.
Guess where they're headed? Yes they will be flowed with the existing valve jobs and the same valves in each.

I'll let you know!

coppercutlass

Not worth my time dude he said 90 percent street car. NOT race car. Bte it ran 13.3 @ 103 with a 2.02 60 ft which is horrible for low 13 second car. The mph was there for a 13.0 if I would have ran a better converter probably would have run 13.0 if I would have added a bigger carb probably would have picked up too. But coulda should woulda. I'm not saying it's best choice but I posted what my heads cost parts and all. I am not saying you are wrong but again its a 90 percent street car why drop that kind of coin when he won't see the strip every weekend. Again just common sense.

ihengineer76

I am definitely in agreement with you here. For performance and racing, aluminum is the way to go for weight off the nose. Not wanting to talk much about the Chevy, but look at the ZL1 cars. Same HP figures as the High output iron 427's but much quicker in the quarter due to the weight savings. Wish Olds would have put the aluminum 350's into production that were in the Baja Olds.

I think I may have been misunderstood about what I said about Iron vs. Aluminum. I wasn't swaying for either material, just stating that one will create more hp than the other. I am not directing this at anyone, but just to clarify for some who aren't as experienced in engines, here is an analogy for all the gun enthusiast here. If you take a .308 round and fire it from two identical barrels (combustion chambers), but one be bolt and one be semi auto, which will fire further? The bolt action (iron head) will. This is because the semi auto (aluminum) will absorb some of the cartridge's energy as the round travels out the barrel (piston stroke).

Sorry for this type of analogy, but I'm a gun enthusiast almost as much as I am a gearhead!

coppercutlass

@ jim if you find where I said the iron heads where better quote it. I'm just saying if it's gonna be a street driven car the iron heads will save him some cash that can be better spent else where. Maybe efi, suspension etc. He never even mentioned compression . Yet you guys are going on and on and seem to forget it's gonna be a street driven can running on pump gas.

coppercutlass

It seems if i give advice im gonna give the best advice. According to jim a proper re build is 4500 for 350 hp. So thats 4500 with iron heads. Now i"ll give you guys the benifit of the doubt. I"ll use my 1445 figure for the valve train and heads for the math. so 4500- 1445 = 3005 dollars. edelbrock heads from summit are 865 each so that is 1730. so 3005 plus 1730 is 4735. since people avoid mondello im using summit racing's price. now a new rpm intake is 255. but im sure it was included in jims build so we will just call it wash for now . with the pistons beaing down .010 with stock 77 cc heads and a .040 gasket and flat tops compression is 9.29 to 1. so lets say you want to take advantage of the aluminum heads and run a little higher compression so you mill them add roughly 65 $ bringing them down to 69 cc's Now you have to mill the intake or intake side of the heads for proper alignment it cost me 100 to mill the intake. you also have to open up the ports on the intake to match the bbo sized runners dont know what that cost but let's say 100. now add some good roller rockers not cheap off brand . harland sharps are 265. now add push rods comp cams magnum series 100. so far we are at 5365 now add that 750 labor figure thrown around the other day thats 6115. Im sure i missed some stuff but you guys get the picture. His budget is 5000 dollars . So id like to know how he can manage his budget with out cutting corners since you all agree on not cutting corners. Nuff said you guys did not even think of his budget. Cant imagine how much it would be with porting.

captjim

Like most of your posts, this one is full of incomplete and innaccurate information. I had already included rockers and pushrods in my budget, which was $4000, not $4500. Also, my $4000 budget DID include porting. Also, as Mark stated, Pro-Comps are MUCH cheaper than E-brocks. So, reduce by $265, $750 (head cost) and the $500 you overstated my cost and you are at around $1500 less. Your math just does not add up.


Here it is again, in case others have not seen it;
Core, $100
Machine work, clean, bore, hone, align hone,
Cam bearings installed, deck .015 $700
Head work, new liners, race valve job, seats
Port work (3 hours per head) , clean-up mill $750
Crank work, cut .010 on mains and rods $300
And balance
Rods, recondition and resize $100
MACHINE SHOP TOTAL $1950

PARTS
Bottom end,
Speed Pro 2320F30 $420
ARP rod bolts 184-6001 $ 62
ARP main bolts 184-5001 $ 36
Rebuild kit, rings, bearings, gaskets $230
Oil pump, stock SP Z224 $ 43
Cam bearings Clevite SH1354S $ 25
Oil pump drive shaft Melling IS-22F $ 13
Cloyes timing chain 9-1113 $ 67
Cam and lifters, springs varies
greatly, low end is $400
Freeze plugs SP Z381 $ 12

TOTAL PARTS SHORT BLOCK $1308

Parts, other
Valves $175
RPM intake manifold 7111 $250
Intake gaskets MG 4694G Ultra seal $ 23
Water pump and thermostat $ 40
Comp roller top rockers 1441 $265

TOTAL $763

TOTAL PARTS AND MACHINE WORK $4021

captjim

What you are missing is that it is NOT going to save him any money. Mark posted this,
"Since the introduction of the Procomps, I'm not sure why anyone would do the stock irons unless they only needed very little work."
We are not forgetting anything, aluminum heads allow for more compression on pump gas, just one more reason to go there.

380 Racer

LOL, yes Jim I'm having dejavu .

Street seems to be realitive term the last decade or so. The OP has to determine #1.......what his budget is. #2 what he actually wants. #1 most usually determines what happens. But he also should think towards future improvements. Copper you have to think into the future because going any faster than a high 12 ain't gonna happen until you spend more coin. This isn't just BS........I know it for a fact. Your stock valved heads with stock ports won't support much faster despite what John says. A couple friends and I ported my #7s. We did a fair job and the car ran 11.50s, but a professional got them to flow/make power much better. He used a flow bwnch and knew what he was doing(?).

I can tell you plenty of real life stories and save you money in the long run.........but I doubt you will listen.

coppercutlass

Jim he did not ask about the pro comps he asked about the edelbrock you seemed to forget again the op's post is EDELBROCK heads not pro comps. Nick I stated my heads have bigger valves many times Not stock sized valves. High 12's are my goals. My valves are 2.072 and 1.63. Jim if I did the math wrong then you do it and show me how much he is gonna spend with EDELBROCK heads not procomps. Or reworked stock heads like he asked. With machining on heads intake etc. I don't think my figures where too far off. Sorry on my 500 bif you erased your precious info . Note of sarcasm on that one. If he can run edelbrocks and keep his budget of 5k show me. I don t care if he can run mickey mouse heads I care about the matter at hand edelbrock heads. The op never said pro comp. If you say taking advantage if the aluminum heads to run higher compression then those heads are gonna need work off the bat.last I checked a 12sec street car sbo is plenty stout. This is not a race car STREET car. My heads cost 1445 with roller rockers,studs,pushrods, guide plates etc. So you mean to tell me he is not saving money and still using a head that's good for the street by running a set of let's say 6's like I am. Sorry but please pass the b.s. Also has anyone susscessfully used the pro comps yet. I mean real street strip use. are you guys 100 precent it is a quality product yet to advise someone to use it have you used them jim. I mean i wanna hear real world experience not second hand.