1970Olds442

Howdy! I have a question/looking for opinions. For starters, I’m not a mechanic and don’t pretend to know the ins and outs of engine building, but am trying desperately to learn. I have a 1970 Olds 442 with a nice running 1969 dated 455. I also have a 1974 dated block that I intend to build to some pretty high specs and am considering going the EFI route.

I plan on some street time (Sunday cruses, occasional trip to the drive-in, local car shows, etc…) and strip time. I’m using Bill Trovato’s book and this site heavily as a reference.

I bought the 74 block bored .60 over & decked on Racing Junk. I have the Eagle stroker crank and rods with L19 rod bolts to make a 496 stroker, I plan on using a Rocket Racing full girdle and main caps to make for a pretty solid bottom end. I have Edelbrock heads (ported), HS Roller Rockers, Edelbrock RPM Air-Gap and Torker intake manifolds (not sure which I’ll go with), AHR 2” Headers, Melling HV oil pump, Holley HP electric fuel pump & RobbMC ½” sending unit, FlowKooler HV water pump & March Performance Ultra Serpentine kit (I know it doesn’t add much if anything, but I think they look good), MSD distributer, 6AL box & Blaster 2 coil and a lot of other small stuff and suspension parts I won’t go into detail on unless someone needs more info.

Not sure what Cam I will go with, I figured once I was ready and started the build, I would ask CutlassEFI for suggestions and/or maybe a custom built cam, I know from reading these forums for years that he really knows what he’s doing.

I currently have a Holley Ultra HP 850 carb but, was actually thinking about going with Bill Trovato’s suggestion of a Holley 1050. My other thought is going with a FAST EFI 2.0 set-up or maybe some other EFI configuration. I know they cost $ but I’m willing to take my time and do this right! It’s already about 4 years in the making; a little more patience will hopefully be worth the reward.

I’m thinking EFI would be easier to manage in the long run, would probably be more efficient and effective both on the street and on the track.

So, any suggestions or recommendations would be appreciated. Also, please don’t beat me up too bad, like I said, I’m trying to learn/teach myself and any guidance from some experts would really help.

Thanks!!

Ray

jeure

I have tried the EZ EFI with no luck on my existing 455 motor. It is a mild build with updated W30 cam and 9.35 compression. I finally gave up on the EFI and went back to a carb until everything is working better. At the same time, cutlassefi is doing a build for me that will be pretty hot. Around 500 hp with Multiport EFI from Accel. Maybe he would want to wade in here as he does not have many good things to say about EZ either. Yes, the Accel is more expensive, but much more configurable also. Anyway, just some food for thought.

1970Olds442

Thanks for the quick reply!! This is exactly the information I'm looking for. I've heard good and bad about EZ EFI. I certainly like the idea of having something more configurable. The added expense sucks but is also the nature of the beast. I would rather spend the extra $$ and get what works best than to settle for the cheaper option and be unhappy.


Do you happen to have any more information on the Accel EFI he plans on using? I’d like to look it up.


Again thanks for the quick reply!!


Ray

jeure

Hopefully cutlassefi will chime in if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure we have locked in on the Accel Gen 7 ECM. You can also pm him and get confirmation. He is great to work with and has a very good reputation on this site and others.

L69

Speak to cutlassefi. He's the guru with efi

cutlassefi

Thanks guys, I appreciate the acknowledgement.

In my experience the EZ has limited applications. And at the end of the day it's just an electronic carb, period.
But probably the most overlooked aspect of EFI is spark tuning. Being able to custom tailor your spark curve for evey load, rpm, and temp is priceless. Some of the tbi systems offer spark control but most are limited. Conversly most of the multiport systems have exceptional spark control.
But with that said EFI isn't for everyone. As mentioned there is a cost issue, and certainly a familiarization of the systems is needed. But in the end it can be fun as well, and I for one would never go back to a carb. Too much upside with EFI, especially with today's controllers.

Plus if you're going to race, the data logging features can be a big help. I know there are other data logging pieces out there that work with carbs but with the jump to EFI the available info and control is that much greater, and consequently even more helpful.

Let me know if I can be of any further help. Happy to do so. Thanks.

1970Olds442

Thanks for the quick reply CutlassEFI and thanks for your opinion, what you’re saying certainly makes sense. I have to admit; I’m a computer geek and do IT for a living so EFI appeals to me on multiple levels!


So, I do have some questions.


#1 - Looking at my build, do you have a recommendation for a Cam, either an off the shelf or would you suggest a custom made Cam?


#2 – What EFI system would you recommend, where can I get one and about what price would I be looking at?


#3 – Would the EFI system work with my MSD ignition?


Thanks again for everyone’s time and assistance.


Ray

cutlassefi

Depending on your compression and gear, I'd probably do something in the 240@.050 range. I'd also need your flow numbers.
The AEM Infinity 8H would be the system for you, about $2400.00 for all electronics from me. Loads of features, datalogging, lots of fail safes, nitrous capability as well as multi fuel capability, ie E85, race gas, pump gas etc.
Yes you can use your MSD ignition but that will only enable batch fire. In order to do sequential you'll either need a crank trigger or a different distributor. It would have to be a dual sync for sequential. Otherwise your current MSD will work.

wr1970

Mark very informed on the efi setup no doubt.You should take his advice.He has helped several with efi systems.

Mr Nick

If you're an IT geek and want something to keep you busy playing with features for a while, don't get EZ-EFI.

I have it, and while I think it's great and fit my needs perfectly at the time, I'm already running into situation where I wish it did more.

HWYSTR455

Mr. Nick - Was that an EZ-EFI 2.0? Or the regular unit? Curious what the limitations you are experiencing are?

cutlassefi - Is that AEM the one that is based on VE tuning?

My opinion is that basically, anything over about 450hp, and depending on the intended purpose/how you drive the car, should use a multi-port system. Below 450hp, and more of a 'street' car, usually you can be satisfied with a throttle body setup. Obviously, that's a generic statement, but there are some truths to the reasoning.

I just did a Holley Terminator install on my 355 clone, and aside from some minor tuning that still needs to be done, am totally happy with the results. In that application, I strongly recommend a dual-sync distributor. The FAST unit for Olds is a nice piece, and worth the cost.

I've been meaning to post my experience here in an install thread, but have been busier than a one-armed paper hanger in a wind storm. But if any are interested, here is the link to another site where I did create an install thread:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=776391

I did everything possible to hide as much as I could when I did the install, which was considerable extra effort, but think it shows. Or doesn't, actually.

.

cutlassefi

Nice post, good info.
Curious though, why a dual sync with a throttle body system? Are you planning on going multiport? And in a ballpark, what was your total outlay for the whole project?

Yes AEM is speed density and a true VE, most aren't. And where it differs even more is processor speed. It's twice the speed of virtually anything else out there right now in this price class. (400mips vs 200mips)
Plus it'll do drive by wire, traction control and flex fuel, the Holley HP doesn't do any of those to my knowledge, only the Dominator does. HP is 60 pins, AEM 8H is 80.

Thanks for the related post!!!

HWYSTR455

I would have to go back and check, but there is a reason to use the dual-sync even with the throttle body, something about how it calculates fuel maps during learn or something, can't specifically recall at the moment. But they are also somewhat limited when it comes to timing control on the HP and lower models. Basically, has to be the late model controlled HEI or the dual sync.

The Dominator does drive by wire, and Holley even has aftermarket universal pedals & DBW throttle bodies. It also supports the Lokar pedals, plus all current OE pedals. The Dominator does E transmissions, as well as traction control. Nice having it all in one box.

Here's the model and feature comparison of the Holley ECUs, but they've added feature since this listing:

https://ac17cb7e3cc3506f0d23-7386afb...ley_efi_20.pdf

I was pretty set going to the Dominator on my next build, but I'm going to have to take a closer look at the AEM stuff now.

.

cutlassefi

Hmmm, not sure how having a dual sync effects a tb setup. Dual sync are beneficial for sequential multiport applications only.
And yes I would check out in the AEM stuff. Again their base model, the 8h, does everything the HP does and some of what the Dominator does, at much more of an HP price. And yes it supports several dbw applications, even has multiple dbw maps for various levels of aggressiveness.
I'll look into why you'd need a dual sync for a tb application. However now you're closer to what you'd need to run sequential multiport in the future if so desired.

Thanks.

HWYSTR455

Has something to do with the software, know it was explained to me, spoke to tech a number of times trying to figure out my options for timing control, and that was the easiest path. Realize it's generally only used when going sequential, totally understand, which is why I called tech, didn't click with me.

Anyway, doubt I will ever go multiport on that car, it's a driver, rarely will see track use, if at all. I will probably take it up at least one more time since I have the terminator on it, had carb issues which held me back the last time I went. Best I could pull was a traction limited 13.66, uncorrected, and was on a 105 degree day. Shoot, I was running AC in the staging lanes even. But know there's more in it. It was laying down at the top/big end with the 650cfm. When I ran the 750, it had some part throttle issues, which is why I put the 650 back on. And like you, I'm done with carbs.

Let me know what you find out about the dual sync requirement, would like to refresh my memory, and figure out if the guy I spoke to in tech was just feeding me a line or not. I've been buried in work lately, brain is in a totally different gear.

.

Mr Nick

EZ-EFI 1.0 for me.

Limitations I was not aware of, nor did I know enough to realize they would be nice features:

• Lack of cold start AFR adjust-ability, mine runs in the 14.x AFR range at temps under 140* when in open loop. At 140* it goes into closed loop and runs much better.
• Can't pick what "gauges" are on the display, can only use their 4 pre-set options
• Only one rev limiter, multiple is nice for burnout, staging and max general RPM limit.
• Only controls 1 fan. I already had a nice adjustable fan controller, but I have to run 2 temp sensors. One for the FAST controlled fan, plus the other.
• Can't hook it up to a lap top for more detailed tuning while driving.

Limitation I knew about ahead of time, but due to the budget I had no choice.

• No timing control. My MSD 6AL2-P does allow me some nice timing maps, but it's just a fancy version of changing weights, springs, and vac canister. Timing control that's integrated with an EFI set up would also adjust for temperature.

There is supposed to be an update that will allow you do use the new 2.0 screen on the original 1.0 system, which will add a few features... including cold start adjust-ability. But still no timing control.


Like I said, I'm happy with it and I have no plans to remove it any time soon. I got 16.5 MPG on my 425hp SBO on a recent 200 mile road trip averaging 75-80 MPH (2,700RPM or so) and a few burnouts. If I behaved and went 60 MPH I bet I'd be around 18-20 MPG, but that's boring.


That all being said, if/when I build another car, it will likely have a different manufacturers EFI system on, even if FAST has something newer out in a few years, I'm not impressed with their customer service.

Mr Nick

IMO, all the more reason to want multiport over throttle body, part throttle drive-ability and throttle response.

cutlassefi

Exactly, x2.

HWYSTR455

Well can't imagine it being much better, it's pretty instant throttle response now. But before I don't anything else, the 4L80e goes in.

Maybe when I swap to aluminum heads I will consider multiport, but that's probably going to be after I finish one of my other cars, which is almost done in the body shop.

.