67 Cutlass Freak

I purchased the valves on Ebay. They are stainless steel and under cut as well as swirl polished. The ads specs were not correct and the valve stem diameter is .002" to thin. The valves fit too loose in the guides. I suggest you contact Bernard Mondello directly. This Facebook link has his phone number.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Berna...08309059257851

I have been told he can set us up with good parts at a good price.

olds 307 and 403

67 Cutlass Freak, check your PM's. I can see what needs done to my number 8 heads, after stripping one down. There is a good blog when you search #8 heads on Google. I remember he used to member on OP and was having issues running his 350 on the computer on his 87 442. Between his helpful pictures and what Smitty said, matching early 350 heads flow should not be hard. The restriction under the valves, especially under the exhaust is rediculous.

Smitty275

Shop rate around here runs $57-$70. I price port work by the job. There's no way I could ever charge shop rate and ever get a customer on porting. Your just not going to do a street strip job in 10-12hrs.

Undersize valve stems. That's a first for me to ever hear of. S.I. Valves usually run a couple thou large. Of course they are a product of Brazil. So you get what size they send to S.I. that batch. S.I., no name, or other offshore manufactured valves don't find their way into my heads very often. Milodon on the cheap end and they are a very good valve. Otherwise its Manley. Just no substitute for their quality and the fact I can get the correct shape on the back of the valve.

67 Cutlass Freak

Smitty, I was surprised about the valve stem diameter being too thin as well. Milan had a conversation with J(Chicago) about this issue. He said that from his experience the aftermarket valve venders all have a hard time getting it right for the Oldsmobile. I will look into the Manley and Milodon valves. I agree with you, - you get what you pay for.
Here's a link to the Ebay ad for the valves I purchased -


http://www.ebay.com/itm/201006897730...84.m1423.l2649


The actual valve head diameter is 2.068" not 2.072", actual valve length is 4.775" not 4.713", actual valve stem diameter is .339" not .341" as advertised.
I guess these will work well in the ProComp heads or with their guides.
Smitty would you care to share with us what you might charge for various levels of port work on cast iron or aluminum heads? When you do a full blown race port job, do you start with a bowl hog on the mill? That would sure save a lot of time porting and give you much more consistency. Last question, how much time do you think you would spend race porting a set of cast iron heads, from beginning to end of the valve job? I'm not talking about using a CNC, that would be cheating. By the way thanks for posting in this thread. I think everyone has appreciated your professionalism.

J-(Chicago)

All the more reason to re-use good stock junk laying around. Call it what you will.
We must also realize that most old valves aren't worth using if there is even 1 pit in them, throw them away. It's not worth breaking one and trashing an engine. Well put though with the poop frosting, Dave. You'll get a lot faster at the porting.
I basically pick a size, set my calipers, and take out the spots wherever they get bound up. J heads are the easiest to port for me because you don't have to be pretty about it. Just ram a cutter down the bowls, and blend in the ridges. I set the calipers to 1.135 and stick em in there. Can be done with them in about 4 hours each. Anything is better than what they are stock, and you're already wasting time simply by taking them apart since they suck so bad.

I'll try and get some flow numbers. Stock, just cutters, and blended and ported.

captjim

All due respect J, but there is no way to do a decent port job on iron heads in 4 hours. Yes, you can hog them out, but not much more than that.

Bernhard

Bill/BTR covered this in his book page 109 the fact that many valves were not always straight, concentric or the correct size or consistent in size.

He likes REV and Ferrea valves because they are a quality product and did not suffer from the above issues.

J-(Chicago)

I'm talking about J heads. You can bash metal out of the bowls with a hammer&chisel & get better flow. I'll post up the flow numbers when I get them, Jim. I like facts, same as yourself.

captjim

OK, but is 8-10 hours work on "J" heads gets you to where you are almost as good as stock "E", "C", or whatever, why bother?

67 Cutlass Freak

Jeromy if you are going to have your junk heads flowed, it would be interesting to do one step on each chamber, so you could see what each modification was worth on the flow bench.

J-(Chicago)

A. Because they're cheap/free
B. because the guides and valves are usually within spec, and all the parts fit correctly
C. I never need more than 400 horsepower in any of my cars
D. I can have them on an engine in 2 days with a drill press, a dremel, and an old sioux grinder
E. because my name begins with the letter J? (I'm grasping at straws here)


When the local junkyard was closing I bought 20 pairs of J heads for $400. Out of those, only 8 pairs were in un-usable condition. If it had a worn guide, on any valve, it went right back into the scrap pile. Do J heads suck? Yes. Do they suck for having a running head for $20? Nah...

J-(Chicago)

Also, 1 joy of a head thread on C/O is the fact that childish/stupid posts get deleted.

I'm sure the big horsepower guys are falling out of their chairs laughing at some of this stuff, but the fact of the matter is, this thread is getting views, like it or not.
Please just post facts on here for people to learn from. We can all learn from each other's mistakes.

J-(Chicago)

I will. they won't be dazzling numbers due to the fact that they're small valve and don't have a professional valve job. As Captjim said, there is a bunch of horsepower left on the table doing things that way.

I believe I can safely guarantee they'll flow better than stock J's though. I took my gray delta to 13.1 at the track with "small valve junk" ported irons, 3.23 gear, and 218/224 @.050 cam.
I don't really need the flow sheet when you were there to see it with your own 2 eyes at the track

The crappy thing about R&D step by step with irons, is that you have to get them cleaned before they go on the bench each time. Machinists won't appreciate it when you want to put grimy junk on their nice machinery, and I don't blame them.

Smitty275

Cost wise your looking at $1850 for a street/strip job on a set of iron heads. That's bake & blast, mag for cracks, guides,2.072/1.625 stainless valves, springs/locks/retainers, multi-angle valve job, fill heat crossover, extend divider, deck for desired cc and porting. Add $100 to drill & tap for 7/16 studs, $50 to open bolt holes for 1/2" bolts/studs. This version of a big block head will flow 280cfm @ .600 lift.

Same work + a lot more porting, longer valves for increased spring height for big roller cams, up to 2.150/1.650 valves, and springs to suit the can your going to use, drill & tap for 7/16 studs, open bolt holes for 1/2 studs, open pushrod tubes for 3/8 pushrods, $3200.

I don't use a bowl hog per say. Being a Tool & Die Maker by trade I do some things a little differently than the average automotive machine shop. But yes I do rough the bowls and valve job in very close to finish before I start. That way I only have to skin the seats after porting in the event I nip one with a burr while porting.

Smitty275

The above street strip head will outperform a non ported E'brock or ProComp. Another thing to consider cost wise is that the E'brock has a 77cc chamber and the last set of ProComps had 84cc. So your going to have $3-400 getting them pulled apart and surfaced down to where they have a decent sized chamber.

I just flowed a set of E'brocks for a customer that flowed mid 270s @ .700 lift on the intake side and low 180s of the exhaust side. He said the guy he bought them from paid $1500 in addition to the heads for that port work. That's worth about $750 in my opinion. Couple hundred to tear down/reassemble and the rest in minimal porting.
When doing the E'brock or ProComp I prefer to start with a clean slate on bare castings. That way I can use the better valves and cut the seats exactly as I want them. It also saves costs in not having to tear them down. For the cost of bare castings + $1850 you'll have a head that'll intake flow 300 @ .500 lift and 315 @ .600 lift. Exhaust flow is 200 @.500 and 215 @ .600. Add another $1000 to go 315 @ .500, 335 @ .600, and 340+ @ .700 on the intake side. Exhaust side will 210 @ .500, and 220 @ .600 and up. The techniques and results on porting these heads just keeps getting better.

J-(Chicago)

Smitty what's the scoop on this build? 300+cfm sounds a bit much to me.
Do you think the torker and quadrajet choked it ?
http://realoldspower.prophpbb.com/topic2700.html

Running kino's streetsweeper engine through pipemax showed flow to be in the 250-260 range and it made a little more power with less cam and less compression. Him and I were just chatting here at the shop. http://realoldspower.prophpbb.com/topic2747.html

Obviously different dynos, so there is a difference here.

I'm not calling anyone a liar or claiming anyone juiced numbers, just pointing out the discrepancies that happen in the business. be it on flow benches or dynos. A dyno is a dyno, a bench is a bench, and pipemax is just math calculations, so everything is subject to error since we come from different areas and shops all over the country.

CutlassfreakDave, I have a stock 7 head here you can use alongside your ported heads so you can measure the gains on the same flow bench and determine the gains from a baseline.

Smitty, good job on the engine build.

67 Cutlass Freak

First of all, I would like to apologize for my retaliatory posts directed toward he who shall remain nameless. Thank you to whichever moderator deleted them. I'm glad this board has active moderators. They have helped with keeping this thread from going down the toilet. I hope the information in this thread has helped some people to give them ideas about porting or at least helped them decide after market heads would be better for them.
J-(Chicago) Ulyses' dad has a shop that can clean up the heads real nice so contact him. If you want me to open up the valve seat on one chamber an perform a quickee valve job I will be happy to do that. I still would like to get a garbage BB head from you just to cut up if you have any laying around.


Smitty275
The above street strip head will outperform a non ported E'brock or ProComp. Another thing to consider cost wise is that the E'brock has a 77cc chamber and the last set of ProComps had 84cc. So your going to have $3-400 getting them pulled apart and surfaced down to where they have a decent sized chamber.

I just flowed a set of E'brocks for a customer that flowed mid 270s @ .700 lift on the intake side and low 180s of the exhaust side. He said the guy he bought them from paid $1500 in addition to the heads for that port work. That's worth about $750 in my opinion. Couple hundred to tear down/reassemble and the rest in minimal porting.
When doing the E'brock or ProComp I prefer to start with a clean slate on bare castings. That way I can use the better valves and cut the seats exactly as I want them. It also saves costs in not having to tear them down. For the cost of bare castings + $1850 you'll have a head that'll intake flow 300 @ .500 lift and 315 @ .600 lift. Exhaust flow is 200 @.500 and 215 @ .600. Add another $1000 to go 315 @ .500, 335 @ .600, and 340+ @ .700 on the intake side. Exhaust side will 210 @ .500, and 220 @ .600 and up. The techniques and results on porting these heads just keeps getting better.


Smitty you stated for $1000 extra you can bump the CFM up 15 more points. I realize this is no easy task at that level. Can you outline the details involved with eeking out this extra level of performance? Is welding involved or relocating of the push rods?

rootney

Copper,

If this scheme heats the magnets a lot, they will loose strength and could drop off. Depends what magnet material and how hot.
200 deg F. could lose 40% or more strength. When you hit the materials Max. temp. it will cease to be a magnet at all.

George

coppercutlass

What we are doing is filling the runner with sand so that slag won't go where wedont need it . The magnet is just so the guideplates won't move for any giver reason . From when I helped cutlassfreak fill the risers on my heads the aluminum sets up fast so I doubt we will hurt the magnets. Much like welding I bet the magnets get a lot hotter when you are welding and use the magnets to hold stuff into place. Since someone here gave us the idea to use sand that will also help hold the guide into place that might work by its self but a magnet might also help.

rootney

Copper,

I didn't have a clue what your setup looked like.
I happened to be investigating magnet material properties at work.
Didn't want your magnets to drop away or move at the wrong moment.
Carry on.

Regards,

George

J-(Chicago)

Lol. You guys are crazy. I admire your stubbornness. I'm thinking if you pour it like you are planning, perhaps you should drill a hole through the center divider to sort of "pin" the 2 sides together.Also, you will need that special "oily" sand that they use to sandcast with. If you just dump a bag of play sand in there, you probably won't be happy.

67 Cutlass Freak

We are going to do diagonal slots made with a muffler cutter for the same results.

J-(Chicago)

Here's the calculation for the street sweeper engine 254/197

Some of these posts would be better suited in the head flow thread but, when in roam....

J-(Chicago)

Good luck guys. Don't cut it too much, because I'd hate to see pieces crack off due to the heat of the pour after all that work. That would be heartbreaking. That divider flange is pretty thin.

coppercutlass

J we are using two steele plates I'm going to coat in wax . That will hold the molten alloy in place. The sand will just be so slag don't go in the runners where we don't need it and if it does we just dump the sand and cut the slag off. If not I'm going to buy that clay they use for welding which that will hold the plate in place and fill the small voids of the plate and head casting then we fill with sand.

J-(Chicago)

You can practice on that #5 head I gave you with the busted guide. If that divider busts, A single tear won't be shed by me. I have an extra here.

coppercutlass

I was just reading through what I hadn't read from this morning. J as Dave stated if you need some heads cleaned let me know I wont charge you but my dad does enjoy a bottle of tequila every now & then. don't worry his favorite brand is only 20 bucks lol., which on a side note for cheap tequila is very smooth. If you where to give me a set at a time I can take care of them I usually go by his work every Saturday to work on his car and chip away at the to do list. If you wanted me to do a big batch of irons plan on a 3 day holiday weekend type deal so I can stick em in a dipping basket.

67 Cutlass Freak

No way we're gonna "F" that head up. I'm already half way done porting it

J-(Chicago)

I wouldn't recommend biting off more than we can chew there. That's about a 40 head project, and therefore , a lot of tequila. I'd hate to go to prison for drowning your father.

coppercutlass

hey I'm pretty sure drowning in tequila would be a way my dad wouldn't mind going out in lol jk. What you could to is buy a bunch of concentrated drano and soak the heads for a day or so in a cheap steel garbage can then power wash em. Or we can buy a bunch of engine degreaser and grab 20 sets go dow to the local doit your self carwash and do some hillbilly engine degreasing at the carwash lol. I'm sure the epa won't mind.

Smitty275

The camshaft choice was terrible on this build. Customer supplied it because he had read of other builds using it and making decent power, of which we fell right into that range. Even though its a hy-roller it has events like a late 60's flat tappet hydraulic. In my opinion, the build would have been substantially stronger with a modern hydraulic flat tappet or a completely different hy-roller. I also ran one of my race QJs and a Holley 750 modified be Davince to a 920 on this engine. Max difference between all 3 carbs was 5hp.

As far as dyno difference I can say that the dyno I use is very conservative. It is a custom built impellor with Depac controls. They do a lot with GM Performance and when they bring an engine from GM in for testing this dyno shows on average 9% lower numbers than the Superflows at GM.

Smitty275

What does that work entail you ask? A larger intake valve, a better exhaust valve, sleeved pushrod tubes, and lots of aluminum removal and then very precise contouring. I've never bothered to time it. Probably double that of the first version. The gains are across the entire range of lift not just the big numbers. The first head the port is kept as small as possible and it literally just dies over .600 lift. The second head has more volume and continues to flow well past .700. The air speed is still excellent in either version.

J-(Chicago)

Sounds good, and thanks for posting your thoughts. I remember steveo tried joking with Mr. engelking about how dyno guys have the ability juice numbers for their buddies,
and he immediately got a little offended.
Absolutely not, nobody gets a break. He takes his professional work and machinery very seriously. So after that, we knew we could trust the guy.

Smitty275

I don't know who Mr. Engleking is but I will say it is very easy to juice the numbers for a specific customer. Not hard to do at all. Highly unethical, but easy to do.

67 Cutlass Freak

Smitty, just out of curiosity, how far have you ever raised the roof on a max effort cast iron head? I would like to try an experiment on a junk head, just to see how far I can go, then have it flowed. This guy on ROP, Bigredolds, raised the roof 1/2"-


http://realoldspower.prophpbb.com/topic2786.html


He also raised the floor. I think this would really increase the performance by straightening out the port, but may not show up as a huge gain on the flow bench. I also want to sleeve the push rod holes. Can you tell me where I can find these sleeves, or what size to look for? Thanks again for your input.

cutlassefi

[QUOTE=67 Cutlass Freak;642221]

Smitty275
The above street strip head will outperform a non ported E'brock or ProComp. Another thing to consider cost wise is that the E'brock has a 77cc chamber and the last set of ProComps had 84cc. So your going to have $3-400 getting them pulled apart and surfaced down to where they have a decent sized chamber.

[QUOTE]

Hell I'll do it for that!
It doesn't cost that much. Surfacing costs about a $100.00 a pair, and an r&r should be $75.00 max. Not sure why you guys keep saying doing things to aluminum heads is so expensive. It's not.

And one thing when it comes to the exhaust side, don't get all goofy eyed with bigger numbers there. That can actually cost you hp. There are many cases where less flow will mean more hp. One of the guys at Champion ported a set of SBF heads with a loss of cfm on the exhaust side but that equated to a hp gain. He attributed that cfm loss to less velocity but more area for the exhaust to escape that much quicker.
It's obviously much harder to duplicate the exhaust scenario.

Smitty275

Most shops will take up to .030 off a pair of heads for one price. Over that and it doubles or more depending on how much more. So now that $100 becomes $200 plus your $75 R&R and tax puts you at $300. Some areas of the country have much higher rates than others so it could be even more.

380 Racer

Yup Kevin does a very honest dyno pulls. What it is......is what it is. He's got a Super Flow 902 with a cell,unlike Travato's. Have used him for a couple builds just because of his honesty.

83hurstguy

Yep. I had a set of iron heads cut 0.055, cost me somewhere in the $150-$200 range. If I remember right, the shop's surfacer only took a fixed amount off per pass (may have been 0.001), so getting 0.055 was 55 passes. It was just a matter of paying for tying up his machine time. He may have done the intake side at the same time included for $200. It's been a long time. I was surprised about how expensive the milling got, quickly.

J-(Chicago)

On the bright side you saved 15% or more on your car insurance by switching to geico, Luke.