Lars

the jb-weld won't burn away, i've been running my junk on the run stand for over a month now daily, ran 10 gallons of gas through it. All the jb weld is still there, gload the headers a few times tooning it. try it for a season.

captjim

Check out post #28 in this thread where Smitty chimed in,
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...formation.html
It pretty much refutes all of your arguments. This is the difference between a guy who builds engines for a living and actually uses these parts vs a guy who has never even seen these parts and is just repeating things he read on the internet.

coppercutlass

Correction jim . I make my decisions based on my own observations and what I feel is good for me. I never said anyone was wrong I simply expressed why I feel I would run iron heads on an sbo. I read what smitty posted before you posted it here and can still care less My views have not changed. So the point of your post is to show how much of an @$$ you are GOOD JOB ! There has been some failures with procomps stuff and the info is out there just like what smitty said which is contrary but on the internet aswell so based on what you said maybe I shouldn't trust it. Get where im going with that. Now If you wanna take it up with me pm me but this isn't the thread for that . A parts store can sell you parts and tell you they are good but only time will tell if they are ., as far as im concerned I have not seen any time slips with procomp heads Actually meaning they took abuse or dyno numbers so my statement still stands. Also Jim you have been praising the procomps yet you have never used them so you have been repeating too or if not let me know what build that was on. OH the hypocrisy is killing me here. For someone who gave someone sh*^ for using info from the internet you sure used info from the internet to prove your point. I find it ironic when someone is on an olds forum and actually does not even own an olds or olds powered car yet., they give advice based on what ? 2 olds engine builds they personally ran ?

holiday88

captjim start your own thread already! This thread is about porting iron heads. End of story.
If there is a way to permanently block his posts so that I don't have to see them, please let me know.

firefrost gold

Holiday- its about home porting the tips and tricks can be used on a set of edelbrocks or
other heads too. Jim does bring up some good points and has his opinions just as you and I do . Copper How did you hook up with freak on this project ?? Freak when I played with two stroke snowmobile stuff back in my younger days I was told to use the biggest sanding roll I could for better uniformity on ports , I thought it did help .

380 Racer

Jim brings down to earth facts to this board from real experiences. His Olds did very well (I was impressed), what have you done? If you don't like reading his posts.......put him on your ignore list. That's what I did with coppercutlas.

captjim

Threads have a life of their own. Copper has several times IN THIS THREAD berated the Pro Comp head and questioned the quality, yet he has never purchased, used, or even seen a pair. Meanwhile, two professional Olds builders claim they are the best choice for any Olds build, small block or big block. Just pointing that out in the interest of fairness.

Ironically, the author of this thread 67 Cutlass Freak, stated this,
"My thoughts, for what you're trying to achieve, would be to go with the Pro Comps. They will be your best bang for the buck. To do up a set of cast iron heads, good valves and springs would be over $400, a valve job is close to $375, if they need guides or seats you might be getting close to a grand."
the other day in this thread,
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...brock-oem.html

This is an open forum. When I see something I agree or disagree with I am going to say so AND state why. No name calling or getting excited.

Holiday: Go to "User CP" and on the left hand side scroll down to "Edit Ignore List" and add me (and anyone else you don't want to see posts from ) to it. Easy-breezy.

cutlassefi

Then post it.
They had problems years ago with their BBC heads but have since fixed it. Now those are some of the best out of the box BBC heads you can get.
If you have facts recent and contrary to that then post it. Otherwise stop with the hearsay.

coppercutlass

No I have an opinion and I think its a waste of money mark FOR AN SBO !. I never said those heads will fail but you have to take the risk of flaws specially with relatively new heads that are yet to be thrashed on. So I take it with a grain of salt new heads , over seas production from a company with failures in the past. I make an educated decision on that. That's where im at mark. Has anyone truly beaten on them yet ? Is there track numbers ? You can still make power with the irons and run pump gas and not spend appx 2k all said and done. to make it work.


Edit: Now to better explain this the procomps are a new product and everyone is all warm and fuzzy because there is new stuff for the olds engines. Now the fact people forget is that's it's new. Look at those procomp rods a member said how horrible they where they are procomp and the latest and greatest for olds. Im sorry mark but any educated consumer will do their research before any purchase . In todays age where so many people have tech. at the tip of their fingers You would be stupid not to research past history and make an educated decision. Because only idiots take the salesmen's word for it with out researching it.

cutlassefi

We're not talking about Procomp rods. Again show us recent problems with the Procomp heads. I'm all ears.

And iirc didn't GM make some flubs over the years? i.e. Corvair(we had one when I was a kid, it caught fire and burned to the ground), Vega etc. So because they made a few mistakes then everything they do is junk? Hmmmm, doesn't make sense to me.

coppercutlass

Mark that soes not make them junk but a lot of people did avoid buying that gm product. Much like the pinto or prius etc etc. But mistakes where made because of probably quality control or errors in casting. It can happen again so I take it with a grain of salt like I said.


Also im talking 2k by the time it's all said and done and up and running. My complete top end everything included all parts ran me 1600 and I overpaid on parts . By the time you factor in arp bolts some decent roller rcokers , matching the intake, milling the surfaces , and the price of the intake you are looking at around 2k + so lets not be delusional here. Im looking at complete price set up to go. I see the big picture and not just the price of the heads.


Edit: lets not forget about having to run an electric fuel pump and probably having to do new lines. It all adds up.

oldcutlass

Lets not crap all over this thread. Lets also keep this cordial and respectful. There is a place for old iron heads and the OP states it's not a high tech thread. It's an old school approach to improving them and we all agree that at some point one needs to address the costs/ benefits and the alternatives in doing it.


Jim, Mark, or anyone else, please by all means start your own thread if you want to talk about a comparison to aluminum heads, the costs, the flow and/or performance differences, etc...


From this point on lets keep the discussion on the subject at hand.

67 Cutlass Freak

Jim I welcome your comments and all others as long as we keep it on track and keep moving forward with positive proven results. I don't mind the controversy and debate, I just wish it was not in this thread about porting. In fact I'm going to start a thread where all this stuff can be hashed out. About the other gent asking - "what head would be best for him?" He meantioned he was thinking about porting, but it sounded to me like he could afford the aluminum heads so that's why I recommended the Procomps. I have not heard anything bad about them. I have no personal experience with them. A friend of mine is a Procomp dealer. He did tell me they have had problems in the past with some Chevy castings. They were quick to correct the issues. Porting is not for everyone. I look foreward to flowing these heads and seeing how well they will perform.

cutlassefi

Point taken oldcutlass.
Back to the subject at hand.
Copper, how many people do you know that typically use a stock valvetrain with ported heads? And if so why? Why not upgrade to an adjustable valvetrain of some sort? Please explain if you would.
And if you're going to go thru the trouble of porting the stock irons, wouldn't you be inclined to port match the intake as well anyway?
I don't see how these would be "extra" costs for a set of aluminums vs the ported irons. Please explain if you would.
Maybe you can offer some insight on these topics as they relate to using home ported heads.

Thank you.

coppercutlass

Mark my setup has adjustable valvetrain. For the record. And hardened pushrods, guideplates studs, poly locks , that's all in my 1600 figure. I overpaid on the ferrea valves. We are matching the intake but not buy much since dave is only raising the roof a small bit. A reputable olds source built the 6's that are in my car right now. I got top notch stuff nothing cheap on those also. Mark if you wanna talk about it more pm me or start a bs. Thread. We don't need to clog up daves thread.

captjim

I don't think it is "mucking up" the thread. If all or some of the effort of porting is going to be negated by a stock intake and valvetrain, those added costs should be talked about, especially given that this is a budget build. You mentioned intakes several times, if you are going to do all this extra work an intake upgrade will be required. Perhaps too as Mark suggested with the valvetrain Think about it, will the cam you choose to match this build work with stock rockers? Maybe, but probably not.

oldcutlass

Lets see what happens before you assume what parts they use and how it relates to the outcome. So as not to muck up this thread, another has been established for any discussions, speculations, or issues not related to this particular build.



https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...cast-iron.html

coppercutlass

I'm not using stock rockers. I have some comp roller tips but might go hraland sharp if I can find some cheap. Dave went ahead and set me up with some stainless valves and the springs I had are good to .540 . I going with. Howards cam. I found a street dominator holley intake for under 150. Now in return I'm doing some body work on daves 67 and getting it ready for paint. Yes I also spoke to howards about my cam. He suggested a shelf grind unless I wanted to wait and get him flow numbers. Again this is budget but I do use correct parts and usually can source stuff cheap / trade.

Lars

19 posts on the topic of iron vs aluminum, so be it, lets see some picts of your aluminum head port work, their basically the same:/, ya can apply the teckniqs to either head, nice work freak, love the links and infokeep it up.


I know the aluminum head is better, but if were keeping irons we need to help them, and that's what this thred is about

captjim

Here is the point that I have trying unsuccessfully to make. For that, I apologize.
You don't just "port heads" same as you don't just "rebuild and engine. It is part of the combination. How many posts have we seen on here about an underperforming car with mis-matched parts? You need to have a plan, knowing which pistons you are using, what CC the heads need to be so you can mill if required, whether the rocker bolt holes need to be drilled and tapped to 3/8".

Let's stick with an "A" body Cutlass with a big block and "C" heads. THe first guy wants a car to take to the shows and it will never be raced. He wants good manners and reliability. He doesn't want to change the 3.08 gears or the converter and wants to keep stock manifolds. On that build, very little port work needs to be done. A little bowl work, a decent valve job with the stock valves and a mild cam and he is good to go.

Guy #2 wants a hot rod. He wants it fast, but doesn't want a roll bar and he wants to run high 11s on pump gas and race it at nostalgia events. His BBO will be a LOT different. It will need extensive head work and larger valves. It will require a big cam with adjustable roller rockers and 3/8" studs. He will also need an aftermarket intake, headers, gears, and converter.

Do you see what I am getting at? That is why you look at everything before you begin and then decide on a plan and what is the best approach to use to meet the goals. And then stick with it! Changing stuff up in the middle of the build usually ends poorly. IMHO.

coppercutlass

Well jim we cant break it down for everyone. If you are too stupid to not be able to make your own calls or ask about it then that's on whom ever that is. We/I have a plan in mind for this build. If you want to show us how to do it either step up of STFU ! We don't have to meet your expections the world does not revolve around you so why does it matter. Dave is showing how he does it for whatever the occasion calls for. People who intend to build an engine or do any modifications should know atleast the basics . I wasn't on a forum when I built my previous engines I didn't have someone to tell me what was what. I had to read articles from car craft , the mondello book ,and what ever little info I could get from my local guys. Self education is a big part of this hobby.

380 Racer

x2

captjim

That is completely uncalled for. I am saying that just like everything else, the port, valve, and head work needs to match the rest of the combo.

coppercutlass

No Jim it is not uncalled for The fact of the matter is if you don't know wtf you are doing then either ask or learn. I didn't learn from anyone for the most part I learned by jumping in head first and learning what needed to get done. If you seriously cant figure out that a set of ported heads is going to be to much for you 9 to 1 mild cammed engine then maybe you should pick up a book or two.

coppercutlass

I have slapped sh*t together and ran much faster then guys who had better parts and sent it out. Sure it didn't last long but Now I know what combination works and what needs to be done and where things need attention Im willing to learn at my expense. This didn't happen by accident I read and pick my parts and what I wanted to use. I see so many people just start asking question before they take the time to actually educate them selves and you end up with a thread that has 20 pages worth of simple questions you can find in the books that are out there. WE CANNOT do the easy work for people.


That's the problem with people nowadays EVERYBODY wants the guess work laid out for them. Guess what people need to sack up and make choices like picking a cam and stuff of those likes. HP is not something where you pick these parts and send this out and poof like magic it happens. It takes tuning and tweaking to achieve it. That's something you learn from jumping in and doing it and educating your self. The funny part is for the first time I emailed a cam company for advice and the told me to go with the same grind I had chose from summit racing. He told me if I wanted a custom grind that would benefit my build a much as possible to get him flow numbers.

captjim

So, your position is that it is better for a guy to make mistakes which cost him time and $ and gets him frustrated that to take advice from guys with years of experience who are willing to give it for free?

A rhetorical question then I'm outta here to let this nonsense continue unchallenged. When a guy posts a question about performance upgrades on a 307, what do 10 people instantly jump in and say? The same $ and time spent on a 350/403 will yield more power, building the 307 is a waste of time. Yes, it CAN be done, but why? The same applies here.

coppercutlass

Jim I haven't lost money in my opinion . I have gained experience and knowledge vs. just handing over money to some to build it for me. The problem with people giving advice is it becomes do what I say or I wont help and im sorry that's not how it works. Again in my situation I fully know and understand the nature of my stuff and how long it will and can last. Im sure if someone built my scrapheap 350 with say slightly better lower end parts it would last longer but I make certain calls based on what I can do. The problem is people should take the time to educate themselves on what works , why , why not , and how it will work. Im sorry but Not once have I been frustrated on any of my builds. I have had a blast learning and finding ways to work on my car faster. Im sorry but most of the time advice given by many here is so what I say or beat it. Which you kind of do that jim. daves post is how he does it you don't like it so you are constantly saying something or chiming in yet I don't see you showing us how. You have no room to complain or bi*tch about how it should be layed out. That's how he does it Not you you mark or nick. This is not your website so we don't have to abide by your rules.


This is a rhetorical comment but I don't have to build junk/swap meet builds But I do it to prove a point for others to give it a shot and put those other expensive builds to shame. I could build the baddest engine with the best parts., but someone else has already done that. I want to see what I can do with someone elses left overs and misused parts. I don't wanna build more with more I wanna build more with less. The theme here is do it for yourself., yourself !

holiday88

Ignore function works great. I highly recommend it!

Qwik71442

Dave, here's an exhaust divider I did messing around on a set of irons... air bumps removed also. first picture after rough cut and second picture before rough cut.

67 Cutlass Freak

That looks real nice. Are these dividers made of aluminum? How did you attach them? Do you have any photos of the ported transition area further in, or the rough clip off the head?
THANKS FOR SHARING!

67 Cutlass Freak

Jim I'm sorry that this thread has turned into a pissing match. I appreciate that you are trying to share your knowledge from experience. Copper is a good guy, a little strong headed , and opinionated but he's trying real hard to do the best job he can, with what is available to him. I'm glad I met him, and happy to be part of this engine project. I really want to see him do well, and I think the work I've done on his heads will help him reach his goals. I really think through out this thread he has been trying to defend me, and the efforts, I'm making on his behalf. What we really wanted to see from others on here, was how they do it, not a debate on why you would want to port cast iron heads. I don't know if you read Copper's thread about the SB Classic Olds gave to him, but he describes how he horse traded, or got for next to nothing, the components to build this engine. I admire this build because he's going to put together the best he can, with what he has, and that's not to say he's going to skimp. He will spend the money where he needs to, at the machine shop or on specialty parts he has not got yet. He's going to measure everything, blue print this motor, and degree the cam himself. Jim I know if you met him you would like him. Copper is a young man, not wise in his years like you. Sometimes the younger generation just doesn't want to listen, but if you show them, than they understand. You two both have my respect, I wish you would just have a little more respect for each other. Life is to short.

Qwik71442

Thanks, I used melted piston and attached it by drilling two holes through the center wall and driving short pins through them here are some pictures.

DENT

Interesting thread. I have done some mild port work on my 72 442 #7 heads with good results. Soon I plan to do another set of #7 heads for entertainment . Might use them for my 403 some day.

holiday88

I wonder if there was a reason for oldsmobile to cast the dividers the way they did.

67 Cutlass Freak

From what I understand about it, the engineers did it intentionally to smooth out the exhaust tones at cruising speed. It doesn't make any sense to me because the stock exhaust manifold opens up into both chambers right at the head surface. The only time the divider, or lack thereof, would have any real effect would be when headers were bolted on.

coppercutlass

Dave I have said this before to many guys. Im pretty easy to get along with regardless of what has happened in the past if I where to see jim in person id buy him a beer and shoot the sh*t. Life is too short to hold grudges so usually I get over it. I am hard headed but eventually It sinks in. This is why I work alone a lot. I don't work too well with others but when someone understands why I do things thing the way I do it works out well. Jim has given advice to me and I respect that . Im glad you are doing my cylinder heads and giving me the chance to learn something new. Sorry this thread turned into a pissing match. I think we are all passionate about what we do and how we do it but that's a good thing to an extent but its also why we end up here. I will say this once. My thoughts don't reflect anyone elses but what I think.


Now back to the subject. That divider mr. quick did looks freaking great.

67 Cutlass Freak

No worries here. I knew going into this thread there was going to be some controversy. Opinions are the spice of life. Mr Qwik did do a nice job on the dividers. I am curious on how he formed them or if he made a mold. Hope he shares more photos.
Well it's too cold in my garage today so thought I would share some more info about the valve job. The next step is grinding the seats. I start out by dressing the stone to 45 degrees.
CIMG4327.jpg
CIMG4328.jpg
I will check the stone after every seat but typically will redress after 4 seats. If it looks clogged or not straight then I will redress. For the intake seat, my valve size is 1.990" so I will use a 2 1/8 " stone. They do make different coarseness of stones which are different colors. The white stones I have are for finish seat grinding. I have gone with over sized valves in this set of SB heads so I roughed in the seats earlier before porting. This allowed me to port up closer to where the bottom of the seat is. With the intake valve I want the top of the seat to be right at the edge of the valve, so I will grind just slightly larger than the valve.
<a href="http://s291.photobucket.com/user/Oldsnut1967/media/Parts/CIMG4307.jpg.html" target="_blank">[IMG]

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll306/Oldsnut1967/Parts/CIMG4307.jpg[/IMG]
CIMG4312.jpg
119-1959_IMG.jpg
119-1960_IMG.jpg
119-1958_IMG.jpg
After I have got the top of the seat just slightly larger than the valve, I will do the lower grind with a 60 degree angle stone. Here I will only bring the cut to the bottom of the valve seat, but not up to my actual seat contact point. It's too difficult to establish this point with grinding stones. I use a tool sold through Goodson made by Bousefield to narrow the valve seats quickly and accurately. It sells for about $145.
CIMG4323.jpg
This tool takes a little finesse. I will cut the top of the intake seat right to the edge of the top of the valve. This is all done by hand. The cutter blade will be brought all the way around in one fluid motion with equal pressure letting up slightly at the end of the cut. The material comes off fast. It's important to be smooth and fluid. I will check the valve contact point between each cut. If my grind was good and consistent, it usually takes three passes with this tool to be right where I want to be.
CIMG4289.jpg
CIMG4290.jpg
CIMG4313.jpg

coppercutlass

Dave maybe we should do an alloy divider . I think if we make a template and form it from say some thick sheet metal and hold it in place with some magnets and isolated the rest of the ex. ports to avoid over pouring by like making a cover integrated into the mold I think it's possible to pull this off. If you think we can pull something like this off then I can probably make some template and form some sheet metal. I do have some so spare heads here I can use to mock something up.

67 Cutlass Freak

Once I have established the upper seat contact point, now I can adjust the lower seat contact point using the same tool but a different bit. On these heads I want to run .030" seat contact area so I set up my needle tip divider.

Here I am cutting the lower seat to establish the correct seat contact width. On this cut a softer touch is needed because the material will come off fast and you don't want to go too far.
CIMG4314.jpg
CIMG4293.jpg
CIMG4320.jpg
CIMG4326.jpg
The next step after establishing my desired seat contact area is lapping in the valve and checking it for proper contact to the seat.
CIMG4322.jpg
CIMG4331.jpg
Now that the contact area looks right, I will back cut the valve 30 degrees to the bottom edge of the valve contact area like in this diagram-
backcut-1.jpg

11971four4two

stone sharpen ERR.jpg

that is epic
thanks for sharing