scootergeo

will put my questions up front, see details on current engine and rebuild plans below:
1.) Has anyone had any success with the Eagle 488 stroker kit on a 455 rebuild?
2.) What is a safe HP and RPM limit for this set up?
3.) Recommendations for beefing up the mains reliably and cost effectively? A $1700 girdle is too pricey.
4.) Suggestions for best oiling… Is cam restrictors and opening up the drain backs good enough?

My car is a 1968 Cutlass 'S' with a rebuilt 455 (from a '68 Delta 88). I have been driving the car on the street and strip whenever I can for the past 3 years. It ran very well.
Unfortunately I spun a rod bearing last week while leaving the track. I pulled the motor and sent it off to a reputable builder & machine shop a few days ago and waiting to hear back on the post mortem analysis.
I "inherited" the rebuilt engine from previous owner when I purchased the car 3 years ago:

The car ran great and ran 12.18 @ 112 mph with 3.42 gears with a 700R4 and shifting before 6000 rpm.
I believe the converter is a ~ 2500 stall.
Based on Trap speed and 4000 lb car with me the HP calculates to ~ 530 HP at the crank.

455 Previous build details:
Bored 0.030 over with complete machining and debarring of block etc.
Stock bottom crank and rods with stress relieved (shot peened) rods.
Keith Black 277 pistons with -15cc dished heads
Edelbrock performer 77 cc RPM heads, supposedly gasket matched.
Edelbrock performer intake
Comp Cams hydraulic roller lifters
Comp Cams Xtreme Energy™, XR290HR Camshaft
Comp Cams 1.7:1 Roller rockers
Pro Systems (HP 950) mechanical secondary carb.
MSD Digital 6 Plus ignition + MSD billet distributor
Milodon HV oil pump.
Oil restrictors.
Calculated to 10.2:1 compression.
I ran it on premium pump gas and added a splash of C12 (112 octane leaded race fuel) with 38° total timing when at the track.

I'm thinking of replacing the rotating assembly with the Eagle one listed below:
• 4.155 bore & 4.500 stroke
• 488 cid - 700 max HP
• Eagle cast steel crankshaft with 455 Mains
• Eagle 4340 forged H-beam rods w/ ARP8740 rod bolts
• Mahle forged pistons with -22c flat top = 10.0-1 with 77cc heads
• Plasma moly file fit rings
• Clevite 77 rod & main bearings
• For external balance - Use 455 Olds flexplate & harmonic balancer
• Also available in 4.185 bore (+.060)

Thanks in advance.

--
Scott

s i 442

Being out of a Big car doesn't this make it the odd cam bank angle?

drop top olds

si 442, you are thinking of the 425. He has a 455.

yankees

Is 4000 lbs accurate from scaling the olds? I'm thinking more like 3780 according to the heaviest 455 stockers w/iron heads and a 250 lb driver. Unless truly dyno'd then u r probably pushing 415hp based on your numbers. My guess with the 488 would be 460-475 hp with the same E heads on an engine dyno. That's really good power for a street car. Until u hit 600hp range u can save your 1700 as a girdle isn't needed. 455 stockers that r in the 550hp range r not using them, and they r spinning them pretty good.

cutlassefi

I don't necessarily agree.

He'll make 500hp/600tq with an RPM and that stroker kit.
And while he may not need a $1700.00 girdle, a simpler one offered by a couple of companies would be a good start.

Make sure you have it align honed after the girdle and studs are installed. By increasing the stroke you're adding more weight further out. That tends to stress things a bit more. I think this would be money well spent.
Conversely throw the restrictors in the lake, they're useless.

Kennybill

What's the plan for your Cutlass, street/strip or race only? If street just fix the engine right. I like a 7 qt oil pan and get rid of the oil restrictors. If the mains look good the alinement must be ok, 3+years of running/racing. Usually a rod bearing is caused from detention/lack of oil. Get a good used rod/resized. Don't go overboard on a street engine. I'll bet you were having fun with the car and that's decent times. This combo should crack the 11's if you work on the little things. 2nd option, drink the kool aid. Full race bogey. Send your engine to (fill in the name) latest Olds Guru along with your check book. While the engine is at the shop, upgrade your suspension, headers, transmission, driveshaft, rearend and full roll cage. You will need and enclosed trailer and new diesel pickup. So now you have to decide. Good luck, Ken

cutlassefi

I'm not sure where you get off by suggesting he only has two options. If done right he has a helluva lot more than that.

Kennybill

Basically I'm saying choose what you want to do, street/strip or just strip. Sounded like he was enjoying his car the way it was. I went overboard on option 2 so he can see how "maw" can snowball on purpose and tried to put a little humor in to it. I've been there, the big dollar, race only car isn't as much fun as the street/strip car, imo. So I was just trying to get him to think what's best for him. Seems like you took offense with my post. Ken

cutlassefi

Write what you really meant to say and no one will misunderstand, simple as that.

Kennybill

I did write what I meant to say. First option was as cheap a fix as one can. Option 2 was extreme as one can. He has to choose his path. 700 hp will mean a lot more cost than just the engine. Ken

scootergeo

Thanks for your responses guys :-)

The motor has already been built up once and I want to do it better this time.
I have never weighed my car but I figured it weighed close to 4000 lbs with me in it and racing calculators indicated ~ 425 hp at the rear wheels.

I like the idea of the 488/495 stroker assembly from Eagle but that is an added cost of $2000 + balancing. The extra displacement and torque would be nice.
Are the Eagle cranks any good, do they need some final machining touch up?

What do you guys think of just keeping the stock crank (if it is ok) and changing out the rods to forged H beam ones and possibly changing out the pistons?
I figure lightening the rotating assembly and internally balancing should help.

The builder will port and polish the heads and we may look at changing the cam. That and proper tuning should add a few ponies.

Does anyone have any comments on the halo girdles from PRW? http://www.prwonlinestore.com/oldsmobile_4.aspx
Do halo girdles provide any significant strength improvement?

I currently have a Moroso 7 qt pan and Melling HV oil pump...

So ditch the restrictors and build with proper clearances and I should be fine for oiling? Is there a magic number for mains, rod and side clearances for a car that is used 50-60% at the strip?

My goal right now is to build something fun and reliable that will take me down to the 11.50 s in a fully steetable configuration.
In the future a 100 shot of nitrous and a cage and I will be looking to get in the 10's.

Thanks Again.

Gunmars

Had a 488 stroker built earlier this year and didn't need any additional work. My car is majority street car with rare strip runs and I couldn't be happier with the Eagle kit.

Kennybill

To Scooter, keep us informed on your build. To Gunmars, what weight of car, gearing, times/ mph/ 60 ' times. Juct wondering, thanks, Ken

cutlassefi

With Eagle rods I'd run .0022-.0025 on the rods. Mains are good at .003 for 1-4 and around .004 on the rear. The Clevite bearings already have an extra .0008 or so clearance built into them on the rear main, rod side clearance is good at about .015-.018.

Hope this helps.

yankees

Gunmars how did the 488 turn out in respect to dyno and ETs. What was complete combination.

scootergeo

I just got word back from my builder and the mighty 455 spun one rod bearing and cooked a few of the mains. Definitely a lack of oiling for some reason... On further investigation it was noted that the baffle in the Moroso 7 qt pan was broken in pieces... Yes, it had plenty of oil in the pan.

I am looking at the Eagle stoker kit which only comes with 0.030 or 0.060" overbore pistons. I would prefer to only go 0.040 over, (motor was rebuilt 0.030" over already), but there seems to be a lack of pistons readily available with the 12-16 cc dish needed for a 10.0-10.5:1 compression.

Will I be ok going the full 0.060" over?

Any suggestions on 0.040" forged pistons?

75cutty455

0.060" over is fine for an Olds.

cutlassefi

For that configuration you'll need to go to .060, unless you go with a custom piston. I can get you a Diamond piston for $850.00 a set with rings and pins.

scootergeo

This one might cause some debate:
I am reading Bill Trovato's book "How to Build Max-Performance Oldsmobile v-8's" and noticed some differences in recommended bearing ands rod side clearances. Comments and rationale welcome.

Bill suggests the following clearances:
200-400 hp with factory connecting rods - 0.0035" mains and 0.0035" rods
400-500 hp with factory connecting rods - 0.0038" mains and 0.0040" rods
500-750 hp with aftermarket rods - 0.0043" mains and 0.0040" rods
800 hp + with aftermarket rods - 0.0048" mains and 0.0043" rods
Connecting rod side clearance of 0.008-0.012"
Bill states that keeping the side rod clearance to a minimum helps maintain hot oil pressure.

These values differ from what Cuttlassefi suggested, see below:


Thanks.

cutlassefi

No debate, no problem.
I built a 455 to Bills specs a couple of years ago, I bought his book too. Guess what, it hardly had any oil pressure (45-50psi at 5000rpm with 20W-50 and Lucas Oil stabilizer) and didn't make any more power than anything else. Read it carefully, are there any real revelations in the book? It's a great compilation of info no doubt. But if I may, I was disappointed and felt a bit taken for a ride.

But here's a topic for debate. Why would someone continue to post dyno numbers taken with a velocity stack installed, 126* water out temps, and done in a room with probably 80* air temp? In what scenario would this be real world conditions on a street engine?
Read this, and it doesn't even reflect having hot underhood air or an air cleaner installed instead of a velocity stack;
http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...t/viewall.html

Think about it.

Thanks.

scootergeo

Well parts are ordered...
Got an Eagle stroker kit ordered with 0.060" over Mahle -22cc pistons, Eagle 7.1" H beam rods, and Eagle 4.5" stroke cast crank.

The existing cam I have will be too small so we ordered a Crane 809641

Also any suggestions on final compression ratio I should shoot for? By my calculations decking the block another 0.005 should give me a final ratio of 10.3:1 with a 0.005" deck clearance and a 0.040" head gasket.

Thanks,

cutlassefi

Sounds nice but I would have done something a little different on the cam.
That's just me but I'd also recommend a little more open pressure than what they say. Let us know when you get it together.

scootergeo

My engine was just dyno'ed this afternoon and the numbers are:

540 hp @ 5400 rpm
602 tq @ 4500 rpm

These are the numbers the builder told me over the phone. I will post the complete dyno sheet when I get it.

The builder was impressed and said it was a "strong" motor and performed well.

Also FYI: the setup was run with the unaltered Edelbrock Performer dual plane intake and then run again after center divider was milled down 1" and the HP was identical. The only thing the different was the AFR was more consistent (highs and lows closer together) over the RPM range.

Cheers

drjr56

Nice numbers.Good to know about the Performer,I have one on mine it's been milled an inch also.Was thinking about changing to a Torker,think I'll hold off for now.What did you do for better oiling. Good luck and enjoy it..

scootergeo

Thanks. I hope to get it in before the snow flies here and take her for a rip.
I don't know exactly what the builder did for better oiling...
I think he just used good tolerances, left the cam bearing restrictors in from a previous build (said they are useless but weren't hurting anything), put a new HV pump in, cleaned up any drainage areas in the block and fixed my 7 qt Moroso pan. The previous build spun one rod bearing and cooked two main crank bearings (hence the rebuild). The baffle in the pan had broken loose and appears to have got sucked under the pickup starving the engine of oil. Prior to that there were no oiling issues with 5500 street miles plus 150 1/4 mile passes as the track routinely spun to 6000 rpm.

drjr56

I see more builders doing what you had done...opening up the drain back holes and good tolerances.Thats the way my 400 was built and I had no problems. My 455 got the restrictors though,so far so good with oil pressure. Your hp/tq #'s should have you well into the 11's,just gotta get her to hook.....go have fun before the white stuff shows up.

scootergeo

I just received my motor and here is the Dyno sheet.

cutlassefi

Good pull, nice numbers.
Glad to see they didn't do a Travato trick and pull it at 110 degrees.

46# of oil pressure? Hmmm...., what weight oil?

Should get you where you want to go!!

scootergeo

I was impressed with the torque, I would be curious to know what it was from 1500 rpm and up.

Yes, I wondered about the slight drop in oil pressure too. You would think that if it was 51 lbs at 3000 rpm, that it would go to up to at least the pump bypass limit of 55-60 lbs at 5400 rpm.
I believe 15w-40 oil was used.

I am going to call my builder today.

My first thoughts were windage since the drop is a consistent gradual decrease as RPM goes up. My other thought is that the pickup could be too close to the pan.

cutlassefi

Yes, good torque.
But it would have made more if that cam wasn't on a 114 lobe sep. As I mentioned before I would have done something a bit different.

jmo

Thanks

scootergeo

What would you have done different with the cam? In your opinion, what sort of difference would a smaller lobe separation have made in terms of HP and TQ?

I talked to the builder about the 5 lb drop in oil pressure and although he noticed it too, he didn't seem too concerned. He is a reputable builder and said that he used 0.003" clearance on the mains and 0.0025" on the rods. He said that he commonly sees a slight drop in pressure under higher RPMs and loads as more oil gets "spun off" the crank at higher RPMS' He said he sees the same thing on his 732 CID 2500 HP 6s Pro Mod and never any issues. 46 lbs is still plenty of oil pressure.
He also said that an olds oil pump is tiny compared to a BBC oil pump with tiny spur gear in comparison.
he also mentioned that 3" mains are big and tighter clearances would be required to get more pressure.
I guess there is a balance between oil pressure and flow, as they are somewhat inversely related.

I guess we will see how well it works when I finally get that 495 stroker back in the Cutlass. Unfortunately, I am so busy with work time is scarce.

Also, the builder also mentioned that his dyno is conservatively calibrated at ~ 7-10% less to account for real world variations and differences between a motor on a stationary dyno and in a hot car. His saying is "dyno numbers are just numbers, put it in your cars and see how it runs, I am sure you will be happy".

I am interested in your thoughts...

380 Racer

Oh my......I have had my engines on three different dynos. 2 SuperFlows and a Stuska. All have recommendations to keep weather corrected and are consistant. Never had an operator say how he compensates (like a %) because the dyno compensates to around sea level so you can tune the motor correctly.
The first dyno pulls with my 425, I then put the figures into a calculator
. It said a 9..94........it actually ran a 9.96. Close enough for me. Never trust an engine builder that says "I don't have to measure........I know"

scootergeo

I think you may have misunderstood, or I didn't quote the builder properly or express myself correctly...

The builder merely said that his dyno tests tend to be on the conservative side. He said he goes to great extents to ensure his numbers are as close to real world as possible and any error is on the conservative side.

cutlassefi

Hope this helps.

scootergeo

Yes it did thanks.

In the defence of my builder a my not have quoted him or interpreted what he said correctly. I know he builds a lot of motors for drag, circle track, performance street etc and he stands behind his work. Anyone I know that has one of his motors is very happy with performance and reliability.

The oil pressure dropping from 51# to 46# gradually and consistently as rpm increases does concern me a bit though. Should I be concerned?

If clearances are good what other factors could cause the slight drop?
You would think loose clearances would show low pressure at 3000 rpm.
I am thinking that clearances changing slightly under load or oil heating up during the dyno run could cause this. I am just guessing here.

Does anyone have any dyno results with oil pressure numbers I could compare to?

What is acceptable oil pressure?

cutlassefi

That's a loaded question. It depends on who you ask.

Bottom line, if you're happy with it and he'll stand behind it then there's no issue.

RetroRanger

Those dyno number lookreal nice Ill bet its a fun driver....

Dool Cat

Great build! I went with Eagle kit 488 with thumpr hyd roller cam and made peaks of 586 tq @ 3600rpm and 487 hp @ 5000rpm.
I would attribute the duration and lift of your cam giving you higher peaks along with running it at cooler temps in which we ran mine at 181.
My avg oil pressure from 3k-5k rpm was 38.4 and my avg BSFC#/HP-Hr avg .275.

cutlassefi

Uhh you might want to double check that. Nascar stuff runs in the high .3's I seriously doubt you have a BSFC that's 30% less than a Nascar motor, sorry.

scootergeo

Congrats on the build, sound like fun. Let us know how it runs at the track. Have fun with it.

My build likely had a bit more power due to the bigger cam and mildly ported heads.
The best I have run at the track is 11.70 s @ 115 mph in the 1/4 mile in a 3850 lb car with me in it and a DA of 2350 ft.
I have a 700R4 with 3.73 gears and a 4000 RPM stall converter.

As far as oil pressure goes I have 500+ hard miles on the new build plus ~ 20 passes at the track and cold idle is 64 psi, hot idle is 40 psi @ 1000 rpm and 50 psi @ 2000 RPM cruising.
One thing I have noticed is that the pressure will drop from 50-55 psi down to 40-45 psi under abrupt hard acceleration and takes about 1 second before the pressure drops then holds steady at 40 psi. Pressure does not drop under sustained high RPMS. I have noticed this more after the last oil change when I switched from 15w-40 conventional oil to 5W-40 synthetic.

Do I have a thrust issue, main clearance issue, or oil control issue (slop). I don't think it is windage because pressure does not drop under sustained high rpms (4500-6000 rpm).

When I last checked the oil it was about 1/8" above the full mark. I guess I could try dropping 1 quart out and see if that makes a difference. I have a Moroso 7 quart pan.
I guess I could also try switching to 15w-50 Amsoil Dominator synthetic (which I have on hand) and see if that makes any difference.

To my knowledge the mains were clearanced at 0.00275 +/-

Any comments or suggestions?

Cheers