RON MAROUSEK

well i use stock mounts which are not good enough for this power and solid mounts give to much vibration!!!
What i have done for years is 3/8 hardened chain from drivers side of engine to frame to engine with very little play in chain engine can move just a little like 1/2 inch before chain tightens! Works perfect. Without this i have boken mounts and even had engine buckle the hood.my hp is about equal to yours

ROBZ442

Without this i have boken mounts and even had engine buckle the hood.my hp is about equal to yours[/QUOTE]


This is what I am trying to avoid. The chain idea may work well for security and vibration dampening.

Thanks

archeryshooter

For the street I would go Poly

Run to Rund

I made a jig from a cross member cut out out of a frame, and fabricated 1/4" thick steel mounts.

jims2000lt

I have stock motor mounts in my 69, but I made a double tab welded to the frame with 2 3/8s Heim joints and a 3/4 hex stock bolted to the block on the drivers side.
Its basically a nice version of a torque limiting chaing.

The heim joints a left and right hand thread so I can bolt it to the block and give the hex a half a trun and take all the slop out of the motor mounts.
Been like this since 2003-4 with no plroblems.
Car has been an 11 second car since 2002.

chadman

That's fine if you prefer the 400 but built to the same level it absolutely will not run circles around a 455.

chadman

I run a stock rubber mount on the passenger side and a solid steel mount on the drivers side. I don't notice any more vibration than I had with two rubber mounts and a limiter cable. Looks nicer under the hood too.

coldwar

Rob - Now reading your original question, have you found your answer after 88 posts? If so, please summarize it in a few sentences similar to your original question for the benefit of other readers - Best - CW

ROBZ442

As of now I am leaning towards bumping it to a 488 with around 11:1 compression, ported aluminum heads, Torker intake, 850 DP, roller cam with lifter bores bushed to .842.

I know I don't need all the compression or the cubic inches but by the time I'm that far into it it's almost the same cost. Besides this is my toy so it's not something I have to drive everyday.

archeryshooter

Sounds like a everyday rush to me!

captjim

What are your plans regarding fuel? Pump gas? Mix?

ROBZ442

This will be a pump gas motor I figure with aluminum heads 11:1 will be safe. The fuel pump will be electric with a 1/2" line and a bypass regulator feeding a return line. I like the Quick Fuel Black Diamond carb and want to talk with them about their electric pump. Description says it's for drag racing so I'm not sure how it would hold up to extended street use. If not a Holley black pump looks good too.

captjim

I respectfully disagree. I think the whole "with aluminum heads I can run a bunch more compression" thought is overdone. Unless your tune is dead nuts, IMO, that is too much for a street car on pump gas. IMO the risks do not outweigh the benefits of that much compression. I told a guy on OP the same thing, he was at 10.7 to 1 and had a bunch of problems. Remember, just cause you don't hear it does not mean it is not detonation.

ROBZ442

This is one area of great debate and will be looked into before the final compression ratio is decided on. I am still working on the final compression and cam.

archeryshooter

Well Rob you can always do E85 check out Mark Sullen on e85carbs.com thats the guy Im going with

captjim

Here is my opinion, not saying I am correct, but it is my thought. When aluminum heads came out, guys could run more compression. But, it isn't because the head is aluminum. I don't buy that it dissapates heat better. The explosions come so close together that I don't see how. However, what does make a difference is the better chamber designs. So it isn't that the head is aluminum, it is that aftermarket aluminum heads have modern, efficient chambers. For the most part....

This is the issue with Olds heads. For the most part, the chamber is identical to stock; large and slow burning with a very small quench pad. This is the reason that I do not think you can just add a point to a point-and-a-half compression using aluminum heads. Can you run 11 to 1 on pump gas with the perfect cam and tune? Probably, but you run the risk of beating the bearings out of it.

Again, just my personal opinion and I won't disagree or argue with anyone who thinks otherwise.

cutlassefi

Actually even the original Edelbrocks and now the Procomps have markedly better combustion chambers, probably twice the quench area of an original design and they start the flame front at the hottest part of the chamber, the exhaust side. It's been proven that's the way it should be.

But the simple fact is aluminum does disperse the heat better/faster, all else being equal. It's far less dense so it doesn't heat soak as bad as iron does.
However, all else being equal, most often if you take a 9.0:1 iron headed motor and a 9.0:1 aluminum headed motor, the iron headed one will make more power, for the very opposite reason, it retains heat and the heat is power, to a degree. So you actually need to raise the compression ratio to reverse the effects of the heat loss.

But all of this is a moot point if you're looking at economics. To take an iron head today and buy new parts, do the guides, seats, fill the crossovers and weld the center dividers etc., it just doesn't make sense, money wise. And on top of that the new stuff is lighter, has better/more efficient combustion chambers, better exhaust ports and uses a spark plug that has more varieties of makes and styles.

Imo I still think the aluminums are a win win.

captjim

I agree with this completely. I just think for what he is doing and with all those cubes, no need for a hi-comp, hi-revving engine. It should make massive torque at 10 to 1 or so, shift at 5500 and call it a day. Whether it makes an honest 550 HP or not really doesn't matter, it will be fast and fun. I just see no reason to bump the Cr up that high.

TripDeuces

Aluminum vs iron heads aside it's more about your dynamic compression ratio than anything else. Your cam choice and type of fuel will dictate where your compression should be. Take a look at this article.

http://www.empirenet.com/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html

captjim

here is an older E-brock head, quench area looks pretty close to stock.



Now, compare to another aftermarket chamber,

This is what I was trying to say, that some of the other engines have a vastly different chamber from stock while the Olds aftermarket heads are still pretty close, better, but not radically improved.

EDIT: found this article with a pic of the new chamber, better.
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec...s_project_car/



Great quote!!

captjim

Of course, that is what I have been saying. With higher Cr the cam choice needs to be perfect while not sacrificing idle quality, manners, and vacuum so that the car is fun to drive. Same goes for the fuel mixture and timing curve. To run 11 to 1 even with the perfect cam and tune on pump gas is asking a lot. IMHO.

EDIT: I started this thread at ROP several years ago,
http://www.realoldspower.com/phpBB2/...ynamic&start=0
Art (aka SPOLDS on the boards) posted this. This guy has forgotten more about engines than I will ever know and I really respect what he says. He posted this in that thread,

"This is why I don't put much stock in dynamic compression numbers. Where I live here in San Diego 9.0-9.5:1 static compression is pretty safe with most combos with the cheap 91 octane pump gas we have. I own a 2002 SS Camaro with a 10:1 LS1 and it will not run on the current pump gas available here."
He is keeping street engines at around 9.5 to 1. I received the same advice from several Olds builders and can grinders such as Engle, Bullitt, DSE, RR, etc. I did state "iron" heads so you can adjust how you see fit for aluminum. Art also made a great point regarding all the factors that can affect the dynamic ratio.

Milan..

Robz442 , if you decide to bush your lifters to .842 , I have a shop near you (us) that has a BHJ fixture. Then you can set lifter bore clearance and make a perfect set-up.

Milan..

Also 10.5 . aluminum heads , plenty of cam is pump gas safe. You can do more , but its hard to know how much is too much. Big radiator , big fans and a mechanical water pump too.

cutlassefi

Jim, the top pic is obviously the first version of Edelbrock head right?
The second pic is the newest and the bottom is the 2nd version and the current Procomp design. The first one hasn't been produced in a long time.

I have a set of the Procomps and new Edelbrocks on the shelves in my shop. I think the chambers are different enough from a stocker to make be an issue, not even taking into account plug location and exhaust port flow vs an iron head.

archeryshooter

X2 heres my head gasket from last july it is a pontiac with iron heads at 11:1 and a magnum comp roller cam had some oil from pcv coming in a little strong at the time pump gas 91 28 total timing it has been ok so far since I fixed the oil problem cooler plugs and mixing gas pain in the butt switching to e 85. my point is I think it can work but I feel like Im walking the fence so thats why Im going with more octane. Its scary when you have a lot of cash tied up in a motor. I have dished pistons with 65 cc heads trying to get the cr down that was as low as we could get it.

captjim

Yes, top pic is the older version. Just saying, IMO, aluminum alone is not enough reason to add 1.5 points of CR.

Mark, if you were advising on this build, a 488 ci BBO on pump gas, what would be your recommended Cr and cam profile?

cutlassefi

To reach the goal of 550hp, I'd do 10.5:1 or so with a hydraulic roller in the neighborhood of 238-242@.050 on the intake. I'd shoot for about .600 lift and make sure it had the decent size carb on it, i.e. a 950 or so. With good heads he'd hit his goal imo.

TripDeuces

Those chambers look familiar Just like mine sorta

ROBZ442

Thanks for the offer, the shop I am working with has the BHJ fixture as well.

ROBZ442

As for the compression ratio being on the high side with the shape of the heads, what about using reverse dome piston?

What about the dynamic compression ratio? If that's taken into account it shouldn't be a problem, correct?

captjim

Domes increase compression even more, plus you have flame travel and valve clearance issues. As posters in my link stated, there are a LOT of variables that affect dynamic CR, not all of them are known factors and thus can't be totally accounted for. Also, you might get the cylinder pressures safe to run on pump gas, but you will be sacrificing something; idle quality, vacuum, etc.

Just ask yourself if the extra .75 Cr is worth the risk and go from there. IMO, at 10.25 to 1 with that many cubes you will make all the power and torque that you need without risking the engine.

ROBZ442

My question was about a reverse dome to offset the shape of the head.

This is all good information and I appreciate the input.

Thanks

Milan..

Would the shop be FX engines in Mokena?

captjim

Sorry about that. Sure, you can takle a flat top and cut a dish in it to match the quench pads on the head and use the dish to fine tune the final compression ratio.

ROBZ442

No, the shop I am working with is in Wisconsin.

Run to Rund

If you are considering going to use Edelbrock heads, 4.125"+ bore etc. why go to the expense of bushing the lifter bores when a 455 block is ready to go? You could save the 400 block for a more stock build.

ROBZ442

I have a spare 400 block that I decided to use and by going with aftermarket heads I will be able to keep the B heads with the original 400. I am the second owner of my 442 and I still have everything to go back to stock one day if I chose, so far I dont see that happening though.

This build is turning into something more than I orignially expected, it will basically be a 455 within an E block, which I think is kinda cool too.

chadman

Sounds like you're in the same boat as me. I have everything to take mine back to stock as well. I am the third owner of mine. First was my grandpa, second was my Dad and now me. I don't want to do anything that can't be unbolted and returned to original. That's why I haven't tried to make it any faster because I just won't cage this car. Now my '69 is a whole different story.

coldwar

Rob: Threads like this make my head spin. You started with this:


....which assuming the use of lightweight 350 pistons knowing your bore is already out .040" means 1.22-1.34 Hp per CI. Not diffficult to obtain with relatively inexpensive parts, yet we end up at....

I have no exotic expensive menu of personal parts preferences for you, because I know none of it is needed for a guy trying to make the power you want, and for the use you suggest. "...almost the same cost..."??? You bit the apple or drank the Kool-Aid.

I don't know what is in Ron Rowland's engine except for what I have read, but as he was a racer with savvy I would expect his engine to be 'super stock' blueprinted. Even if it is out to 410", and the camshaft is something more then the 308°, the sound and performance certainly suggests easily 450hp, maybe more. And more relevant to your use, I already know I can break a Oldsmobile or Pontiac/Oldsmobile diff with a 330 and a two speed, without any kind of real traction. I do not know what is under Ron's car, but if it is production based diff parts regardless of what they are, it is doubly impressive, and he got easy 12:50's. Here is what 'maximum stock' gets you, as one extreme. What will your exotic and expensive engine and a stock diff with 3.23 get you? A hard lesson in futility, out here in the real world.

archeryshooter

So whats your point???