65 442 with 425 slow ?? - ClassicOldsmobile.com

65 442 with 425 slow ??

Old July 1st, 2018, 08:45 PM
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65 442 with 425 slow ??

I took my new to me 65 442 for a spin today and was very underwhelmed with the performance. I mean I had some quick cars in the past ( 10second charger & camaro , low 9 second monte ) & new it wasn't going to compare to them but I figured it would feel like a solid 12 second car. Current combo is :
Fresh rebuilt toronado 425 (the 375hp engine)
forged pistons 10 1/4 - 10 1/2-1 compression
little hotter cam than stock but still pretty mild
o4b intake
edelbrock 600 carb
hooker header & 2 1/2 exhaust with flow masters
msd coil and ignition

manual m21 rebuilt with good clutch

stock open rear non posi

I figured the car is making 400-425 hp and should crack 12s but doesn't feel like it at all . Question is for not a lot of $ what can I change that might be holding it back ? I was thinking about doing a 750cfm dp, gears, and a posi ?? Any insight appreciated
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Old July 1st, 2018, 09:01 PM
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I think a 600cfm carb is way too small for that motor. 750 to 800 cfm IMO.
What rear gears do you have? That could make a big difference as well.
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Old July 1st, 2018, 09:12 PM
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How many times are you going to request info to help the performance of this engine? Even if you have to get rid of the 04B and get an intake for a Q-jet, this engine will never have the power you are looking for with the Edelbrock carb.
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Old July 1st, 2018, 09:19 PM
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If you have had 9 and 10 sec cars you should know what to do. First thing that scream to me is intake and carb , you didn't mention gear and 10 .x to 1 compression and near stock mild cam is asking for a world of hurt on the bearings.

I would to an RPm intake and 850 carb. but unless you don't give cam specs, gear and a relative weight its useless to help. '

I run 12.2's with a small block olds on a relatively simple combo. you should be able to do it but you need the right stuff. 12's with an BBO should be pretty simple.
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Old July 1st, 2018, 10:04 PM
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I did a 1971 442 convertible back in the 90s, factory engine blue printed, factory intake Q-Jet, 71 W 30 cam, filled cross over, welded ex divider, headers, turbo 400, 2.56 gear. Guaranteed to run 12s with slicks. Not sure the intake or gears are the problem.
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Old July 2nd, 2018, 04:49 AM
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Originally Posted by edzolz View Post
How many times are you going to request info to help the performance of this engine? Even if you have to get rid of the 04B and get an intake for a Q-jet, this engine will never have the power you are looking for with the Edelbrock carb.
how many times ? I asked which carburetor in another thread. My apologies if you think my two threads are redundant.... & a q jet certainly is not going back on the car

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Old July 2nd, 2018, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by coppercutlass View Post
If you have had 9 and 10 sec cars you should know what to do. First thing that scream to me is intake and carb , you didn't mention gear and 10 .x to 1 compression and near stock mild cam is asking for a world of hurt on the bearings.

I would to an RPm intake and 850 carb. but unless you don't give cam specs, gear and a relative weight its useless to help. '

I run 12.2's with a small block olds on a relatively simple combo. you should be able to do it but you need the right stuff. 12's with an BBO should be pretty simple.
That's the thing , unlike Chevy or mopars people are telling me to leave the dead gears in it & I'm not sure why ( probably 3.20 - 3.55s) . Also I hear that the o4b is as food as an air gap for my application ?
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Old July 2nd, 2018, 05:59 AM
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my thoughts.

Did you do a compression check & a leak down test on your engine? Do you know that it is firing on all 8?


After checking those boxes I would swap to a Performer 455 & either a well built 800 cfm Quadrajet or a 750-770 cfm vac secondary carb. Then I would chassis dyno tune the car to make sure I was getting the most out of what I have.


While you are at it verify your rear differential gears. if it is a lazy 2.78 or 3.08 gear then I would step up to something more suited to acceleration.


Good luck with your toy.
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Old July 2nd, 2018, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by oldsmobiledave View Post
Did you do a compression check & a leak down test on your engine? Do you know that it is firing on all 8?


After checking those boxes I would swap to a Performer 455 & either a well built 800 cfm Quadrajet or a 750-770 cfm vac secondary carb. Then I would chassis dyno tune the car to make sure I was getting the most out of what I have.


While you are at it verify your rear differential gears. if it is a lazy 2.78 or 3.08 gear then I would step up to something more suited to acceleration.


Good luck with your toy.
awesome advice , firing on all 8 and going to do a compression and leak down this week end.. What gear would you recommend with an m21 and 27" tall tire? Not a highway cruiser and when cruising keeping it at 50 is fine by me.
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Old July 2nd, 2018, 07:09 AM
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gear

Originally Posted by 65oldsrocket View Post


awesome advice , firing on all 8 and going to do a compression and leak down this week end.. What gear would you recommend with an m21 and 27" tall tire? Not a highway cruiser and when cruising keeping it at 50 is fine by me.

3.55 gear sounds about right to me with your combination.
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Old July 2nd, 2018, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by oldsmobiledave View Post
3.55 gear sounds about right to me with your combination.
cool, I was thinking 3.55s or 73s... You wanna shift a 425 higher than a 455 correct? Around 6k
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Old July 2nd, 2018, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by 65oldsrocket View Post
You wanna shift a 425 higher than a 455 correct? Around 6k
If it's built for it, yes, but your cam choice may limit the upper RPM to less than that.
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Old July 2nd, 2018, 01:59 PM
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I think your tuning is off. 425 cubic inches 375 hp Toronado engine had a decent "factory" camshaft and you state "yours is a little hotter than stock." It should have good low end power and torque. Most aftermarket camshaft don't make more hp/torque till after 2500 rpms than factory camshaft. With a one wheelie peelie, your car should have a traction problem in the lower gears. Jmo.
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Old July 2nd, 2018, 04:56 PM
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X2-kennybill a relatively stock 425 in an early light weight A-body is a nice combo. My 64 F-85 Pro Touring ride has a 67 400E attached to modified 200R-4, Mossier 9 inch with a 3:50 gear set. It can get you holding on to the steering wheel real quick with 27 inch tires. Back in 71-72 I dropped a 425 in my 65 maroon 442 "post car"-here's pic. on the 64 ,still have to adjust the stance-probably put 2 inch drop springs in the rear this weekend, then get the right tire under it.
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Old July 2nd, 2018, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Kennybill View Post
I think your tuning is off. 425 cubic inches 375 hp Toronado engine had a decent "factory" camshaft and you state "yours is a little hotter than stock." It should have good low end power and torque. Most aftermarket camshaft don't make more hp/torque till after 2500 rpms than factory camshaft. With a one wheelie peelie, your car should have a traction problem in the lower gears. Jmo.
i would've thought the same thing, the only thing I can attribute it to is possibly having really dead gears in it and the 600cfm carb ... The thing feels really dead down low
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Old July 2nd, 2018, 07:50 PM
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I had a beautifully built 800 CFM Q-jet built by Dean's Carbs out of Stuttgart Arkansas. Properly built and tuned the GM 800 CFM Q-jets are great....( my opinion of course) "Deano" build one for my 67 442 resto-mod Bad Boy, 500 HP 455 that I owned for 13 years and then parted with a few years ago. Have another one on the 64 F-85 Pro touring build with early 67 400E.
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Old July 2nd, 2018, 08:18 PM
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Could a lot of that power be going up in smoke due to the open rear axle and the spinning of just one tire?
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Old July 2nd, 2018, 09:31 PM
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My vote in change intake change the carb change gears in the rear and make sure it is a posi. I also think 355 rear gears posi.
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Old July 3rd, 2018, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by oldsmobiledave View Post
Did you do a compression check & a leak down test on your engine? Do you know that it is firing on all 8?
After checking those boxes I would swap to a Performer 455 & either a well built 800 cfm Quadrajet or a 750-770 cfm vac secondary carb. Then I would chassis dyno tune the car to make sure I was getting the most out of what I have.
While you are at it verify your rear differential gears. if it is a lazy 2.78 or 3.08 gear then I would step up to something more suited to acceleration.
Good luck with your toy.
X2.
And that O4B is junk, not any different than a stock iron intake.
A Performer with at least an 800cfm carb of some kind will help tremendously.
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Old July 3rd, 2018, 06:40 AM
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What is your timing curve and what fuel are you running?

initial advance, advance curve, and total timing will all make a big difference on this engine.

have you verified that the timing mark is at top dead center? On the 330,early 400, and 425’s, the timing mark is a different place on the balancer than the 350-455 engines.

I would verify this first and foremost.

Use a dial back timing light to check your timing numbers and watch for erratic timing behavior that means your timing advance weights may be sticking, etc. Pull the cap and check for spark scatter and carbon tracking, worn rotor tip, etc. Check wires for arcing to anything or cross firing, and put some fresh spark plugs in, gapped at .035.


I also would recommend a larger and better carburetor, or that you buy a tuning kit and get it dialed in. It really shouldn’t affect the torque down low, but may choke out 20hp on the higher RPM.

Are you sure that your fuel pump and fuel lines are flowing enough fuel? Is the float in the carb set at the proper height?

You may be running super low timing and not getting the power out of the engine that it should be capable of.

Can you verify what gear ratio it has?

Last edited by Battenrunner; July 3rd, 2018 at 06:46 AM.
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Old July 3rd, 2018, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by cutlassefi View Post

X2.
And that O4B is junk, not any different than a stock iron intake.
A Performer with at least an 800cfm carb of some kind will help tremendously.
Theres Oldsmobiles that run 10s with the factory intake as well as the factory Q-Jet, of course the Q-Jet has to be setup by someone who knows how to make a Q-Jet work, theres several out there that can do this.

An example:
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Old July 3rd, 2018, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by 65oldsrocket View Post
a q jet certainly is not going back on the car
Sorry to offend you, but unless you are going all out for race engine performance, you should reconsider the choice of a carb.
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Old July 3rd, 2018, 07:27 AM
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Do all the simple stuff first:

1. Fuel filter clean?
2. Plugs gapped properly?
3. Timing set correctly? (Mechanical advance and initial)
4. Verified TDC on the balancer?
5. Was the cam degreed?
6. As others have said, do a compression test

I totally disagree on the O4B and Q-jet comments.

A properly tuned Q-jet runs awesome on a street driven car.

The big piece here is the rear end ratio and the M21.

The M21 has a first gear ratio of 2.20. Any rear end that is numerically lower than 3.55 will make it "doggy".

2.20 x 3.55 = 7.81, and that is marginal.

2.20 x 3.91 = 8.60, which is better.

That is where the lack of performance lies.
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Old July 3rd, 2018, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by VORTECPRO View Post
Theres Oldsmobiles that run 10s with the factory intake as well as the factory Q-Jet, of course the Q-Jet has to be setup by someone who knows how to make a Q-Jet work, theres several out there that can do this.

An example:
So a totally untouched intake manifold? No porting, no matching no anything? No nitrous? How much horsepower do you need to run in the tens? You’re saying a stock intake, untouched will support that kind of horse power? I don’t believe it for a second.

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Old July 3rd, 2018, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by My442 View Post
The M21 has a first gear ratio of 2.20. Any rear end that is numerically lower than 3.55 will make it "doggy".

2.20 x 3.55 = 7.81, and that is marginal.

2.20 x 3.91 = 8.60, which is better.

That is where the lack of performance lies.
My experience bears this out too. Back when you could still buy and sell our favorite muscle cars from the guy down the block...

I had a 1970 442 (455 ci) with M20 and 3.23 axle. 2.52 x 3.23 = 8.14 Acceleration was so-so.

I traded some parts and sold it with a 2.56 axle. 2.52 x 2.56 = 6.45. As Crocodile Dundee might have said at the time, "Crikey, that's not just a dog, that's a dead dog."

Today I have a 455 in a 4100 lb car with a 2.66 first gear and 4.10 axle. 2.66 x 4.1 = 10.91. That leaves like a 12 second car.
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Old July 3rd, 2018, 02:39 PM
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Man this is all great advice , I'm going to do all the recommended tune up stuff and then am pretty set on going with a 750 dp that I could jet up, posi, either 3.91s or 4.10s , and possibly an air gap intake again all great advice thanks
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Old July 3rd, 2018, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by 65oldsrocket View Post
Man this is all great advice , I'm going to do all the recommended tune up stuff and then am pretty set on going with a 750 dp that I could jet up, posi, either 3.91s or 4.10s , and possibly an air gap intake again all great advice thanks
If you’re changing the Carb and intake, and you’re going to use an RPM, go with at least an 830 carb. The plenum on that intake is smaller than a regular Performer. It needs a bigger carb.
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Old July 3rd, 2018, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by cutlassefi View Post

So a totally untouched intake manifold? No porting, no matching no anything? No nitrous? How much horsepower do you need to run in the tens? You’re saying a stock intake, untouched will support that kind of horse power? I don’t believe it for a second.
Yes.......that exactly what I'am saying "stock" Its illegal to grind on the intake in stock. And nitrous is even more illegal. Don't forget the factory Q-Jet sits on top of that stock intake.


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Old July 3rd, 2018, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by VORTECPRO View Post
Yes.......that exactly what I'am saying "stock" Its illegal to grind on the intake in stock. And nitrous is even more illegal. Don't forget the factory Q-Jet sits on top of that stock intake.

https://youtu.be/WNfcWjHP2KY
So how much power does it take to move a 3500 lb car into the 10’s? You never answered that.
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Old July 3rd, 2018, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by cutlassefi View Post

So how much power does it take to move a 3500 lb car into the 10’s? You never answered that.
I think George Thomson runs @ 3880.

3880 @ 120 MPH = 516 crankshaft HP observed
3500 @ 120 MPH = 466 crankshaft HP observed

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Old July 3rd, 2018, 09:43 PM
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Class /stock dracing is far from stock !. The work they do a stock intake would be more than enough to buy an rpm intake lol. Everything they do is to maximise what they have an over come the obstacles of their respectice class. Its a world way way apart from street performance cars. Its illegal in some classes to port grind heads and intakes . Back in the day i think they filled the runners with acid to "port" them and get around rules.

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Old July 3rd, 2018, 09:53 PM
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What would you guys recommed for an intake ? Performer , torker, or air gap ? I like the looks of the air gap and I'm also not opposed to putting in a larger cam this winter. Actually I'm defiantly going to put in a larger one
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Old July 4th, 2018, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by 65oldsrocket View Post
What would you guys recommed for an intake ? Performer , torker, or air gap ? I like the looks of the air gap and I'm also not opposed to putting in a larger cam this winter. Actually I'm defiantly going to put in a larger one
Performer and at least an 800cfm or larger carb.
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Old July 4th, 2018, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by coppercutlass View Post
Class /stock dracing is far from stock !. The work they do a stock intake would be more than enough to buy an rpm intake lol. Everything they do is to maximise what they have an over come the obstacles of their respectice class. Its a world way way apart from street performance cars. Its illegal in some classes to port grind heads and intakes . Back in the day i think they filled the runners with acid to "port" them and get around rules.

"Its illegal in some classes to port grind heads and intakes"


Its illegal in EVERY class in stock to modify the ports on heads as well as the intake manifold. The factory intake along with the Q-Jet will deliver if done right. Even if a intake had some acid work done your not going to see more than 10 HP at best. Now can a aftermarket intake and carb make a gain...........sure but remember a engine build is only a sum of quality machine work along with assembler that know what they are doing. My point, when you drop your engine off at a machine shop...........you dam sure have had done your home work as to the quality of their work. With a non adjustable valve train things have to be correct, A Olds engine is a little tricky.
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Old July 4th, 2018, 06:34 AM
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I belive bill trovato had a class record holding stocker which in hid olds engine book he details the mods he.did to his intake. Lile cutting it up to port it.
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Old July 4th, 2018, 03:56 PM
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I remember reading a hot rod or car craft magazine explaining some of the tricks the class racers used. Things like going thru piles of factory rocker arms to find ones with the most rocker arm ratio, lightest factory connecting rods, using a flow bench to find the best airflow numbers of intakes, heads, exhaust manifolds, etc. Rear seats with foam instead of the metal framework and springs, machining drums/rotors to minimum thickness to eliminate weight, wheel bearings lubed with oil or light grease instead of bearing grease, anything to reduce rolling resistance or weight. As someone said, they are “stock” as far as part numbers or application, but every little detail or part is optimized for a quarter mile at a time.
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Old July 4th, 2018, 06:57 PM
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[QUOTE=coppercutlass;1106677]I belive bill trovato had a class record holding stocker which in hid olds engine book he details the mods he.did to his intake. Lile cutting it up to port it.[/QUOTE

How fast did Bill run?
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Old July 4th, 2018, 07:01 PM
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Ran low 11's i belive
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Old July 4th, 2018, 08:57 PM
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Consider what Olds put together in 1966 with the original W30. 850 cfm TriCarbs, admittedly on a flat iron intake (but then Sam Murray put his 1967 into the 10s with the Qjet and iron intake, in D/Stock). 308 degree cam with 232 deg. at .050" and .474" lift. 4.11 gears were mandatory with the package as was the M21. The racers got mid to lower 12s at 110-115 mph on 7" slicks.
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Old July 4th, 2018, 10:25 PM
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Tire technology and suspension technology have come a long way. Im sure sams car has all the tricks and many that he will not share as it the case with most serious class racers
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