How many ponies will I gain ? - ClassicOldsmobile.com

How many ponies will I gain ?

Old December 16th, 2017, 08:54 AM
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Cool How many ponies will I gain ?

Any idea ofwhat hp gain with adding the following.

1969 442 with 400 big block.

Edelbrock alluminum heads with

Intake Runner Volume (cc): 188 cc
Combustion Chamber Volume (cc): 77 cc
Intake Valve Diameter (in):2.072 in.
Exhaust Valve Diameter (in):1.680 in.

Roller rockers, Trick Flow Chromoly Pushrods 9.900"

Comp Cams SK42-221-4 Xtreme Energy 256H Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft Kit with new double roll timing chain and new lifters.
1000-5200rpm - Adv.Dur. 256 Int./268 Exh. - V.Lift .453 Int./.456 Exh. - Lobe 110 deg.

Pro comp Airgap dual plane aluminum manifold.

Hooker stainless headers, with 3 inch exhaust.

I believe it has 393 gears, no stall converter

Is this the best combo for low end torque and HP, have all new parts in garage waiting to install, but someone told me only minor hp gain of 30-40 horse would be accomplished, if this is the case I'll keep it stock and sell the parts.

Thanks!
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Old December 16th, 2017, 03:04 PM
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Bill Trovato of BTR fame claims that the Edelbrock heads add 50 HP alone.

My bet is that your combo will add between 80-100.

The only caution is to use a push rod checker to be sure that the push rods you have are the right length.
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Old December 16th, 2017, 03:15 PM
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That is a small cam, go like two sizes up on a 10 to 1 motor.
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Old December 16th, 2017, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by My442 View Post
Bill Trovato of BTR fame claims that the Edelbrock heads add 50 HP alone.

My bet is that your combo will add between 80-100.

The only caution is to use a push rod checker to be sure that the push rods you have are the right length.
That's more in line with what I was Thinking.
The 9.9 push rods was what I was told to use by Edelbrok and Person already running these heads in the same motor, But of course I head your warning and will check valve clearance before bolting them down.

Thanks!
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Old December 17th, 2017, 05:04 AM
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Originally Posted by My442 View Post
Bill Trovato of BTR fame claims that the Edelbrock heads add 50 HP alone.

My bet is that your combo will add between 80-100.

The only caution is to use a push rod checker to be sure that the push rods you have are the right length.
That's a very general statement, they don't add 50 to every application.
I'd say this combo will add 60 or so. Your cam is very small and the small bore will limit breathing. Sorry.
But also don't forget to retune your carb. Don't expect to be able to put the old carb back on it and not have to make any changes to it.
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Old December 17th, 2017, 10:56 AM
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well,not much i can or want to do about the bore size, what is the best cam to use for hp gain and low end torque, what is ment by 2 sizes up, like a comp. cam 42-223-4 RPM Range:
1600 to 5800
Valve Lash:
Hyd.

Hyd.
Valve Timing:
0.006
Duration:
268

280
Lobe Separation:
110
Duration @ .050" Lift:
224

230
Intake Centerline:
106
Valve Lift:
0.485

RPM Range:
1600 to 5800
Valve Lash:
Hyd.

Hyd.
Valve Timing:
0.006
Duration:
268

280
Lobe Separation:
110
Duration @ .050" Lift:
224

230
Intake Centerline:
106
Valve Lift:
0.485

0.49
Lobe Lift:
0.303

Last edited by barryrsmith; December 17th, 2017 at 11:03 AM.
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Old December 17th, 2017, 11:32 AM
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There is no “2 sizes up” or “1 size up” etc.
You have heads that flow half decent past .550 lift, yet you’re not even putting .500 in it. I don’t get that.
You need something with more lift, and duration in the high 220’, low 230’s.
And bag the air gap intake and just do a regular Edelbrock Performer. That’s better suited to your combination.
And just an FYI, low end torque and best Peak hp don’t go hand in hand. It’s one or the other.

Last edited by cutlassefi; December 17th, 2017 at 11:48 AM.
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Old December 17th, 2017, 03:34 PM
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The duration was so tiny on the cam he was looking at. So I said two sizes bigger or might ping itself to death. Would the 268/276 Voodoo work better with aluminum heads?
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Old December 17th, 2017, 03:51 PM
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238 roller cam ish 112duration, aim for that but like said all depends.
Thats what i have with full ported w-455 intake and f-heads, stock w-z manifolds. Its faster than 2- friends stroked 455 and edelbrock heads, same gears. But you need to make everything match up
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Old December 17th, 2017, 04:07 PM
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Ok, when you say duration in the low 220 s high 230s is this at .50 lift?

Did'nt want to have to run a stall converter, will that kinda lift create a vacume issue?

New to this cam stuff, so its confusing me a little, thought the lower duration was good for torque and overall hp output, at least thats what competition cam states on the for mentioned cam, lift over .049 they suggest a stall converter.

Honestly having the c heads with the larger valves i may just stay with those and go with the w-30 cam.

The stock cam on this motor is 328/328 .475/.475 , which is why it has so little out of the hole.

It is suspose to be better in the top end, but this motor runs such low rpms its useless in my opinion.

Thanks!

Last edited by barryrsmith; December 17th, 2017 at 04:13 PM.
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Old December 18th, 2017, 05:24 AM
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You will gain with the Edelbrock heads. They have a better and smaller chamber, even with thicker head gaskets the compression should stay the same. Plus they flow better from top to bottom. A modern cam will be better than the W30 cam in every way, IF the right one is picked. Talk to Mark(Cutlassefi) about a pair of mildly done Procomp aluminum heads and a cam to match your combo. Your factory torque converter is probably higher stall on a 442. The small bore 400G will only put out so much power but bottom end with the right components should be no problem with that long stroke. Mark did a custom cam for my 9 to 1 350. With 2.78 gears it will easily do a burnout just hammering the gas. I had a 2300 stall with the 2004R and a 1800 stall with the TH350 both performed OK but obviously the 2300 stall launched harder.
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Old December 18th, 2017, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by barryrsmith View Post
Ok, when you say duration in the low 220 s high 230s is this at .50 lift? Yes at .050.

Did'nt want to have to run a stall converter, will that kinda lift create a vacume issue? Then you'll need to stay in the low to mid 220's then.

New to this cam stuff, so its confusing me a little, thought the lower duration was good for torque and overall hp output, at least thats what competition cam states on the for mentioned cam, lift over .049 they suggest a stall converter. Lift has nothing to do the type of converter needed. It's duration and overlap that determines that.

Honestly having the c heads with the larger valves i may just stay with those and go with the w-30 cam. Bad choice

The stock cam on this motor is 328/328 .475/.475 , which is why it has so little out of the hole. Correct.

It is supposed to be better in the top end, but this motor runs such low rpms its useless in my opinion. Not true.

Thanks!

You have to decide what it is you really want. You can increase both hp and tq with the changes you described but it won't be the best peak hp AND Tq at the same time. Your call.
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Old December 18th, 2017, 06:47 AM
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Thanks for the reply Cutlassefi!

I swear I am not ignorant, just ignorant to the facts about cams. or was until I stayed up most the night reading into them, now I GET IT

Hows this for my application.

It is a Voodoo

  • Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 268/276
  • Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 227/233
  • Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .510/.522
  • LSA/ICL: 110/106
  • Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd
  • RPM Range: 1600-5800

I know the duration is a little higher then suggested, but it is the only one as of now I
have found with more lift. Will keep looking
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Old December 18th, 2017, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by barryrsmith View Post
Thanks for the reply Cutlassefi!

I swear I am not ignorant, just ignorant to the facts about cams. or was until I stayed up most the night reading into them, now I GET IT

Hows this for my application.

It is a Voodoo

Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 268/276
  • Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 227/233
  • Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .510/.522
  • LSA/ICL: 110/106
  • Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd
  • RPM Range: 1600-5800
I know the duration is a little higher then suggested, but it is the only one as of now I
have found with more lift. Will keep looking
Better, but I'm not a fan of the flat tappet VooDoo stuff. Too high of a failure rate.
I can do an Erson for you, 228/235/.500 lift on a 112lsa with iron heads, 228/232/.565 lift on a 112lsa for aluminums. Both would have better manners than the VooDoo but still make real good power and be easier on the valvetrain.
Thanks.
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Old December 18th, 2017, 10:31 AM
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Sound good, how much for the one for aluminum heads ?

Do I need anything special on the hydraulic lifters?
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Old December 18th, 2017, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by barryrsmith View Post
Sound good, how much for the one for aluminum heads ?
Do I need anything special on the hydraulic lifters?
Price is the same for either cam and lifter set, $275.00 shipped.
Don't need anything special as far as lifters go, you'll be fine with the ones that are supplied with the cam.
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Old December 18th, 2017, 01:19 PM
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OK, Paypal?

If so you can PM me withte address associated with it and I will send you my mailing Address.

THANKS SO MUCH!!!!
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Old December 19th, 2017, 11:14 AM
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What bearing clearances are you running?
Stock rods?
The 400 G spins rod bearings at will unless you address this issue now,your engine will have a short life span.
Bolting on headers,heads,cam and intake are a good thing but with out the bottom being able to handle the added hp/tq it is pointless.
We spun rod bearings in a well tuned 400 G with out the heads and intake.
You should pick up a copy of BTR's book how to build a max performance Oldsmobile engine.
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Old December 19th, 2017, 09:03 PM
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Understandingly so, over reving will do that.
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Old December 19th, 2017, 09:18 PM
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Its easy to over rev a BBO with stock parts.
Some have had good luck with factory rods and a steel crank.
We spun bearings with a well tuned 400 G 69 442.
5500 to 5700 rpm is where we spun bearings.

The stock rod is soft and can stretch creating 0 clearance as rpm increases.
I know of a dozen 400 G engines in 442's that spun bearings.
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Old December 19th, 2017, 09:31 PM
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This is why I have my trans calibrated to shift points at 4800 at WOT, you lose torque curve at 4800, why push it pass that?
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Old December 19th, 2017, 09:37 PM
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Look, I know it is what it is, but at those rpms , is why these motors trashed out.
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Old December 19th, 2017, 09:47 PM
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And the reason wasnt so much as the rpms, or week parts, it was the fact that the oil was pumped up to the top of the engine and stayed there with stock heads, there is a fix that was aftermarket to allow for the oil to return to the bottom quicker, or use a larger oil pan and bore out the oil jounals in the block .

EITHER WAY I PREFER TO DO NOT OVEREV.
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Old December 20th, 2017, 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Bernhard View Post
Its easy to over rev a BBO with stock parts.
Some have had good luck with factory rods and a steel crank.
We spun bearings with a well tuned 400 G 69 442.
5500 to 5700 rpm is where we spun bearings.

The stock rod is soft and can stretch creating 0 clearance as rpm increases.
I know of a dozen 400 G engines in 442's that spun bearings.
What weight oil was in all of those that spun?
And when the rods stretch they go out of round, not necessarily go to 0 clearance.
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Old December 20th, 2017, 07:18 PM
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We spun bearings using 10/30 others were using 5/30, 10/40 ,20/50 conventional oil.
Cars were mild running low 14's to hi 11's.
Low mile motors some spun for the second time around.

My view on the 400 G is that it spins up quick with those small bore pistons.
All the rods were out of round.
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Old December 21st, 2017, 04:50 PM
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swap for a 455

I think the best thing you could do is keep all those parts except the cam, pull the 400 out grease it up and store it in the corner. Put a 455 in with a bigger cam like cutlassefi(Mark) said, the Erson cams are really good for torque. There is no substitute for CID. All your parts will fit the 455 and the cost to do the 455 will probably be less. I know of more guys that have pulled the original engine out and kept it just in case they sell the car than guys that have tried to make the original engine put more power out. Once you do this (max out the motor) the car is not original now is it! Which car would you pay more for; a so called original W30 knowing that it has been maxed out or one with a near original rebuild? Like Mark said you really need to decide what you really want to do with this car, you can't have it both ways.

Ray
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Old December 21st, 2017, 06:17 PM
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I pulled my numbers matching 400 G and will be building a non numbers matching 400 G.
If you don't care about running a 400 G go with the 455.
Cutlassefi has some great deals on pistons and rings.
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