74sprint

I'm developing a CDI and a Inductive programmable ignition system. There are features that I want in it but, because I hope to market these ignitions to the public I would like to get some feedback on features other people would like to see in it. I have always been able to look at things differently, whether it is mechanical or electronic and make things work better. I've done the analog version of the inductive system but, most people like the CDI system more so, I'll complete the CDI one first. I have completed the design of the high voltage section and now it's time to do the control section and this is where the features come into focus. Oh I'm also gathering my parts for a twin turbo BBO, so these ignitions will be needed.

There will be 3 major versions with each version broken into 2 or 3 versions for each. There will be the standard version, a boosted version, and a data-logging version. Depending on what people want I might just make a all in one version. I'm splitting the major designs based on current (amps) draw. The street version will draw 10 amps, the race version will draw 20 amps, and pro-race will draw 55 amps. These current draws are continuous and are not related to the rpm like MSD and others. I can see the "what the F***" questions already so I'll give some details and CDI back ground.

*EDIT*

So besides the multiple sparks and constant current draw which I don't think the current draw or useful rpm range is unacceptable for the return. I haven't decided on the micro processor/s yet but, I have a few in mind, it all depends on the features.
Some quick Specs:
Working voltage = 9 - 18 volts Negative ground.
Time to ready = 0.5 sec.
Time to full power = 0.5 to 1 sec. depending on version
Volts to the coil = 600 - 1,200 volts normal is 800 but can spike to 1,200
Current to the coil = depends on version and coil used, 6 - 52 amps
Spark Trigger input = All versions - points, flying magnet crank wheel (Hall Effect), stock HEI pickup, and encoder crank wheel input.
Sparks per sequence = 4 - 2
Traction control = switch to turn on/off, single source input either analog or programmable slew rate limiting depending on version. Progressively retards timing or progressively cuts spark or fuel injection or both.
Timing retards = At least 5 - start and 3 multi selective (either switched, timed, rpm, or combination of them), programmable boost retard. *
Rev limiters = 3 or 4 fully programmable limits using timing retard and more if needed.
Data-logging = This one is a bit touchy because of NHRA and IHRA rules. I need to put more thought into this one and how much data to collect.
Plug Wires = FULL METAL or low resistance, the lower the better.
Anything else ?????

*The one thing I want to be able to do is to be able to program how soft or hard the shifts are for the street or track conditions. I was thinking that I should be able to program the amount of retard at a certain rpm and then lift the retard after the shift. It would work like this, let's say that I shift at 6,500 rpm, so I sent the retard to start at 6,400 rpm and then have it lift after (0.1 - 1.0 sec. later in 0.1 increments). This power/shock reduction would give the tires a chance to remain glued to the track/street. This wouldn't change the tranny shift speed, just the torque applied. Any thoughts ?

As always development is tied to time and money available. It's taking me a year to get this far and this was the easy part, I'm hoping to start testing at the track in mid 2018 and have a final product design for 2019. Don't forget, besides the hardware I still have to write the code and buy car parts.

Thoughts anyone?

Ray

shiftbyear

Ray, thanks for the input. Honestly I'm as dumb as a post when talking electronics, so the more you dumb down the verbage the better. One thing you might consider is a coil on plug setup for the olds with a crank trigger. If anything a self diagnosis feature would be good, nobody likes chasing a stumble or miss around when it's a simple electrical problem. Good luck.

74sprint

Yah I thought maybe I over did it. Ok I'll edit it. Thanks
I thought about the coil on a plug, problem is the cam sync and how to simplify it.

Ray

74sprint

I guess I totally missed out the part on a pickup/trigger input. All versions will have the standard type trigger inputs for spark timing like points, flying magnet crank wheel, and stock HEI reluctor but, there will also be an option not normally used, an encoder crank wheel input. The encoder will have 360 degree crank timing for +/- 1 degree timing. This is what I'm going to be using on my engine.

As for COP (coil on plug), this is something I was going to add later on. I was thinking for proto-typing, I could cut the top off an HEI dizzy and add an infra-red detector pickup to give me a cam sync signal. This would allow for programming in the firing order. COP would be like that used on LS engines. This be would expensive, probably be between $750-$1,000 for a kit or less depending what's in the kit. It could include ignition, oil pump drive/cam sync assembly, and coils with brackets.

What do you guys think, would anyone be interested in a COP system for the Olds????

Ray

botmbulb

A couple of things I see. I would see if you could extend the working voltage to 20. With a 16 volt system using an alternator, the voltage is around 19. For the traction control, you need to make either a 2 different ignition boxes (1 with traction control, and 1 without), or you need to make the traction control a separate control unit. Otherwise, it won't be NHRA/IHRA legal. As for the COP, I would be interested. Good luck with the project!

oddball

Talk to Finsta on ROP. He's adapting a (ford?) cam sensor to use on Olds, I believe with a MS3.

cutlassefi

I'd consider making it adaptable to the dual sync types of available distributors. Holley makes one that has a dummy cap for use with COP. FAST makes one too but doesn't offer a dummy cap yet.
Good luck on your project but your competition may be stiff with the likes of Holley/MSD, ICE and M&W already entrenched in the market place.

74sprint

Thanks botmbulb. I just checked to make sure and yup max. voltage is 20 volts but, I don't know how much leeway is on that but, that's not a problem. Your right IHRA & NHRA don't like data-recorders and traction control even slew rate ones in most classes (Pro-Mod excluded). I argued with NHRA back in the winter of 94/95 that a slew rate traction device is more of a safety device than an ignition interrupter. I even told them that I could take away the sensitivity and make the adjustment a coarse adjustment, they still wouldn't go for it. Let's face it, if the traction control interrupts your ignition then, you lost the race. But they did say that I could send them a system and their tech department might consider it. At the time I even had the backing from Doug Ducette a top alcohol racer here in Winnipeg. But for sure I would have to make a box with no data-logging and no traction control. Making it a separate add-on would work.

bot-m bulb yup me too.

Ray

74sprint

Thanks oddball, I'll have to check that out. My fuel injection will be MegaSquirt.

Ray

74sprint

Thanks for the info cutlassefi. Yah there are quite a few already and the compepetition will be tough. It's just like EFI now, I remember when EFI was just entering the market and now there are quite a few. Maybe I'll do like MegaSquirt and offer it as a DIY kit LOL.

Ray

Firewalker

There is an MSD 6 programmable...for about 330.

74sprint

Right now the best deal you can get is the Pertronix 510 Digital HP Ignition Control Box at Jeg's $216.99: http://www.jegs.com/i/Pertronix/751/510/10002/-1 it has the most features and bang for your buck. But Pertronix uses the same technology as MSD and others making a CDI box. I'm making something completely different, it's still a CDI ignition but I figured out a way to make the circuitry work where no one else has been able to.

Ray

74sprint

Mostly base on patent US6123063 STACKER IGNITION SYSTEM dated Sept. 26, 2000, I don't hate MSD, just their marketing approach. They do have some very nice products, especially after Holley bought them out.

The one thing I want to say is, don't believe everything that MSD says about what their ignitions can do. I looked at their patents and was surprised at how they state their power and capabilities. For example the power they state is the power delivered to the primary side of the coil and it is the total of 2 sparks over their 20 degrees of rotation time. That's like saying my car puts out 10,000hp during a 5 minute land-speed run. In reality each discharge of the capacitor into the primary is about 50usec. (0.000050 sec) long in duration which about normal for a 0.22uf capacitor, quite small. The current spike they show is also consistent with a .22uf cap. Also the power is shown in a couple of ways in the patent and is confusing because one is shown properly and the other is made up to show milli-joules but the power does not match the other plot. Hmmm. They take the total time that the capacitor takes to discharge, the problem with this is that the coil steps up the voltage using the current flow through the primary side and not the voltage so 2/3 of the time per discharge they use is basically useless. Oh another thing, MSD does not give out how much spark energy is created at the spark plug, also they only use a single small gap sparkplug off of the coil and not off the distributor. Why is this important? because if they went through a distributor then there would have to be 2 spark gaps, half of the voltage and energy would be lost in the first gap (distributor), now that wouldn't look good for marketing. Also why do they have to confuse people with using milli-joules (energy used in 1 second). In this patent they used both got watts wrong. LOL The way MSD states their energy has forced other manufacturers to do the same, people like big numbers right, unless it is a E.T..

Why does a CDI put out such a high voltage spark?
"ELI the ICE man" what this means is that (E - Voltage) leads (I - Current) by 90 degrees in a purely (I)nductive circuit and (I - Current) leads (E -
Voltage) by 90 degrees in a purely (C)apacitive circuit. Another thing is that both coils and caps take time to charge up, we call these time constants. The larger the coil(inductor) or capacitor the more time it takes to charge up but, the more energy they store. Now ELI means that if you put a volt meter and a amp meter on a coil(inductor) you will see the voltage max out before the current does and the opposite for a capacitor. Now both the coil and capacitor have resistance to current flow, also voltage is the pressure forcing current flow. So if you charge up a capacitor to a higher than normal voltage and then discharge that capacitor through a coil(inductor) the coil will see the high voltage first and that high voltage will force the current flow through the coil faster than a lower voltage will. What this does is create a very high voltage spike on the secondary side but, the spike is very short on duration. High voltage low current.

Here is something most people don't know or think about, when a coil discharges into a spark gap, high voltage is needed to overcome the resistance of the air, fuel, compression, and gap. Increase any one of these and the more voltage you need to jump the gap. Anyway once the voltage jumps the gap the amount of voltage needed to keep the spark across the gap goes down considerably because anything in the gap is either blown away or turned to carbon and the resistance goes down a lot. The remaining energy gets converted from voltage to current but, because the energy spike is of such short duration not much current is created. Here's a tidbit, voltage doesn't do the actual burning it either punches through it or blows it away, it is the current that actually does the burning. MSD says that they have Up To 535 volts on the coil but, that is the discharge voltage at idle and it goes down from there. Mine has 1,600v and 614ma on discharge which makes 90,000 to 120,000 on the secondary side to the distributor depending on the coil and half that voltage at the plugs and does not go down even at 15,000 rpm. Current to the coil can be as high as 90 amps but, for only 2usecs.

Ok so now you know about why a CDI is good and bad. From all the patents of MSD I looked at, they (MSD) haven't really changed their design for high voltage from the original back in 1975-77. This is why they can't make double sparks above 3,000 rpm, if they use to small of a capacitor they can't produce energy and if they use to big of one then they can't charge it up. The digital stuff they added is nice. If you want to see a monster ignition wait til you see my inductive ignition, 0.045" gap you get 80,000 volt spark with 1 amp at the sparkplug after the distributor. That's a 80,000 watt spark that lasts 500 micro-secs, you can damn near weld with it and it's good up to 15,000 rpm(V8). One test I did with inductive ignition was to cut off the ground electrode and see if the high compression (stock) BBO of mine could run with a 0.125" gap, it did but, would stumble when I fed it throttle. At the track and 0.085" gap I blew holes in the Accel 8.8 wires, 0.065" gap worked nice. The stock HEI stumbled with the 0.065" gap.

NHRA sucks compared to IHRA when it comes to being innovative. According to NHRA rules;
for E.T. HANDICAP RACING, Data recorders are permitted in Advanced E.T. and Super Pro only. Data recorders (except for “playback”-type tachometers) are prohibited in all other E.T. classes. IHRA allows them in almost all classes! But in the general rules they say they are allowed. Ok NHRA which one is it?
Computers (except for OEM) are prohibited in all E.T. classes. This is stupid, does this include EFI or Ignitions?
IGNITION
Timed ignition-interruption devices (stutter boxes) prohibited. Startingline and/or “high-side” rev limiters permitted. Two-steps, rev limiters, or any other rpm-limiting devices, legal unto themselves but altered or installed so as to function as a down-track rpm controller, prohibited. All wiring associated with the ignition system must be fully visible, labeled, and traceable. See General Regulations 8:3.
8:3 IGNITION
All removable or pin-type timing devices are prohibited. Two steps or other rev limiters that are adjustable by thumb-wheel, replaceable chips, and the like may not be within the driver’s reach and will preferably be located outside the driver compartment. The use of any programmable multi-point rev limiter and/or a rate-of-acceleration rpm limiter, either by themselves (e.g., MSD 7561, MSD 7761) or integrated into the ignition system (e.g., MSD 7531), is prohibited in NHRA competition. So once you leave the line you can only have the highside rev limiter, ... that's fine. Aah NHRA needs to get their sh*t together, boy I'm glad I race at a IHRA track. It seems that so long as you don't have data recording and slew-rate (traction control) control your fine. I guess I'll have to get ahold of NHRA for clarity.

So why am I doing this, well I feel that I have something to contribute to the performance scene. I believe as most inventors do that I have something better than what's out there. I really think that a CNP setup is the cat's ***. I've gotten ahold of Rick Finsta on ROP after reading his post of a cam synchronizer https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/real...m+sync#p121066 so we'll have to see what happens.

Cheers
Ray

74sprint

As I mentioned "I talked to Mike aka.(Rick Finsta)" about his CNP setup and he is now making me a sleeve to fit the 3.8L Windstar cam sync. Since the HV and microcomputer parts of the design works with both a dizzy and a cam sync setup I can develop both at the same time. Seeing I haven't got much feedback on this subject "what people want" so I think it's best to close it out and start a new thread on the ignition developement/build. I'll be doing the CNP first because it suits my needs perfectly.

Ray

74sprint

Started a project thread at:
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...on-system.html