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Ping and no power rebuilt 455, aluminum heads and intake from mondello

Ping and no power rebuilt 455, aluminum heads and intake from mondello

Old February 7th, 2017, 03:38 PM
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I agree that the carb is jetted lean and I would say that the heat range of the spark plugs is to hot, I've had this problem before. Sounds like the pump shot is ok. A new 750 demon... I have found most 650 & 750 carbs are jetted for 350 sbc's and most people don't realize that they have to set up a new carb for their car, they seem to think that you can just slap one on and go. Also without feedback from the OP we can't help him.


Ray - just my 2 cents
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Old February 7th, 2017, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by 74sprint View Post
I agree that the carb is jetted lean and I would say that the heat range of the spark plugs is to hot, I've had this problem before. Sounds like the pump shot is ok. A new 750 demon... I have found most 650 & 750 carbs are jetted for 350 sbc's and most people don't realize that they have to set up a new carb for their car, they seem to think that you can just slap one on and go. Also without feedback from the OP we can't help him.


Ray - just my 2 cents
I don't know why you think a 750 demon is a 350sbc carb and are set up that way. I have a demon 750 that has been on a engine 461 ci oldsmobile engine for 15 years.
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Old February 7th, 2017, 04:07 PM
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Fwiw I'm running a 750 holley and I actually needed more initial fuel shot. Running it box stock besides flipping the pump cam upside down. I think a bbo needs an 850.
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Old February 7th, 2017, 06:23 PM
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My 455 uses a 750 box stock holley with no issues,on the street.The track,it might need a little tweeking.My new build had problems in the first 100 miles too.turned out to be plugs that were too cold for street use,and a new pertronix distributor that died with less than 100 miles on it.Put in NGK-8 plugs.and another pertronix the builder had at my door the next day,and the motor runs strong as ever.I used Lynn for my build in 2012,and so far they have been my issues with this build.Because of his not so great reputation I don't see a 1/4 miles pass with this motor.....and that SUCKS!!I hope your problems are as simple as mine were.

Last edited by drjr56; February 7th, 2017 at 06:47 PM.
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Old February 7th, 2017, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by coppercutlass View Post
Fwiw I'm running a 750 holley and I actually needed more initial fuel shot. Running it box stock besides flipping the pump cam upside down. I think a bbo needs an 850.
I don't know copper about your statement on a bbo's . Do you know how many bbo's came out factory with 750 cfm carbs?
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Old February 7th, 2017, 08:00 PM
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But I doubt your bbo was a factory engine.
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Old February 8th, 2017, 12:04 AM
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CFM requirements on a given CID is a product of RPM. If you are not spinning the engine any higher than what it was from the factory, then you shouldn't need any more CFM.
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Old February 8th, 2017, 12:21 AM
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Based on cfm rpm and Cid I needed a 650 ish cfm. The calculators don't always a apply. I have ran a few carburetors and the 750 works the best based on track testing.
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Old February 8th, 2017, 04:15 AM
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CFM calculations do not consider the technology of these newer carbs. I had this discussion with the Dyno operator that did my engine. Did my 455 need a 850 CFM carb according to the calculation? No. Yet at WOT it was still pulling 1" of vacuum, which is one of the things the Dyno operator looks at when determining if a carb is too big. His philosophy is that newer technology create better circuits and better atomization which result in better performance.
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Old February 8th, 2017, 04:35 AM
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X2. Those are my findings and opinions as well.
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Old February 8th, 2017, 09:29 AM
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Time to cut the oil filter open and see what's in that too. Either buy a large pipe cutter or oil filter cutter from Summit, don't use a saw because it will add debris.

Here's a similar horror story. I'd pull the whole thing apart with someone that knows what they are doing, before it turns catastrophic, and if it's anything similar to this, I'd be calling a lawyer...

https://www.oldsmobilecentral.com/fo...ngine-had-.php
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Old February 8th, 2017, 09:54 AM
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Rereading the post and gong back to the fuel issue after the side discussion on carb size. Runs good then goes to crap.

I have a question: Does it have a Holly fuel pump on it from Mondello?

Here is my experience. I had trouble finding a fuel pump for mine as my machine shop was finishing the build. We won't get into all the details of the discussions back and forth, but The machine shop ordered a Holly fuel pump from Mondello thinking he was doing a good thing as it is rated 7.5 psi. At any rate, Dyno day engine runs great using Dyno fuel pump, when went to the Holly engine fell on its nose. Pressure 7.5 at idle 1 psi at about 4,000 rpm. It was sent back.
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Old February 8th, 2017, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by coppercutlass View Post
I would invest in books , Learn and build it you self. The money you will spend in the tools and books will be less than having it re re built and you will gain experience you will never have to pay for again. I have never had an engine built and i dont intend to ever have one built for me. have i spent possibly a little more on lessons learned the hard way...... perhaps but its valuable to know even why things fail or go wrong.
Amen to this!
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Old February 8th, 2017, 11:36 AM
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Troy..I have the same problem with a holley mechanical fuel pump.Same thing 7lbs at idle,but won't handle WOT.Actually it doesn't even have to be wot for the pressure to drop to 2lbs or less.What pump did you end up using to solve that issue.My 455 is buildup a little. Eddy heads,HR Cam 236\244 and 538 lift,750 holley....
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Old February 8th, 2017, 02:43 PM
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I once had a Holley mechanical fuel pump and it cracked across the pump body. From what I have read, it's a common failure with this pump.

Engine ran OK at low RPM but would crap out due to lack of fuel at higher RPM and it got worse as the crack grew.

Fuelpump2small.jpg
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Old February 8th, 2017, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by drjr56 View Post
Troy..I have the same problem with a holley mechanical fuel pump.Same thing 7lbs at idle,but won't handle WOT.Actually it doesn't even have to be wot for the pressure to drop to 2lbs or less.What pump did you end up using to solve that issue.My 455 is buildup a little. Eddy heads,HR Cam 236\244 and 538 lift,750 holley....
I haven't yet, but going with the Carter muscle car one.
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Old February 8th, 2017, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Fun71 View Post
I once had a Holley mechanical fuel pump and it cracked across the pump body. From what I have read, it's a common failure with this pump.

Engine ran OK at low RPM but would crap out due to lack of fuel at higher RPM and it got worse as the crack grew.

Interesting, I did not check for a crack. What did you replace it with?
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Old February 8th, 2017, 08:59 PM
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A factory replacement Carter M6108 pump from NAPA. If you need the return line, it's the M6109 pump. Prolly available at any of your local auto parts stores, so no need to buy a "muscle car series" pump from the big performance outlets.
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Old February 9th, 2017, 08:21 AM
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Troy..hope it works,I'd like to stay mechanical as well.. Fun71..had the same problem with that pump,unfortunately I found out how crappy they are the hard way, on my way to Atco when the car just shut off!!
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Old February 10th, 2017, 09:16 AM
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couple of things, what is the cranking compression?
why don't you take I-phone video of the car accelerating and fauling off so we can see whats happening, we can start diagnosing and quit guessing if you share this info
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Old February 10th, 2017, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by wr1970 View Post
I don't know why you think a 750 demon is a 350sbc carb and are set up that way. I have a demon 750 that has been on a engine 461 ci oldsmobile engine for 15 years.
It's been my experience that most 650 and 750 Holley style carbs including Demon are sold to people that have a sbc usually a 350. Let's face it, how many carbs are sold to Olds owners as compared to Chevy's. And if you were the one marketing these products who would you set it up for? Yes I know that one should jet to match the air-flow of the carb, but that would be ball parking it. A 455 that's lightly to stout modified should run no problem with a 750 Holley, adjust the idle mixtures and rpm and your done or at least close. I deal mainly with street/strip & strip cars and I find most Holley style carbs need the least amount of tinkering when put on a Chevy. Holley style carbs aren't even close to a quadrajet or better yet a Predator carb for ease when run out of the box. Also Olds engines don't behave like Chevy's, I get tired of telling the speed shop guys that.

Ray
P.S. I have had the same Holley 800DP on my car for 25 years, it's now to small and it's time to go EFI.
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Old February 11th, 2017, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by 74sprint View Post
It's been my experience that most 650 and 750 Holley style carbs including Demon are sold to people that have a sbc usually a 350. Let's face it, how many carbs are sold to Olds owners as compared to Chevy's. And if you were the one marketing these products who would you set it up for? Yes I know that one should jet to match the air-flow of the carb, but that would be ball parking it. A 455 that's lightly to stout modified should run no problem with a 750 Holley, adjust the idle mixtures and rpm and your done or at least close. I deal mainly with street/strip & strip cars and I find most Holley style carbs need the least amount of tinkering when put on a Chevy. Holley style carbs aren't even close to a quadrajet or better yet a Predator carb for ease when run out of the box. Also Olds engines don't behave like Chevy's, I get tired of telling the speed shop guys that.

Ray
P.S. I have had the same Holley 800DP on my car for 25 years, it's now too small Why? and it's time to go EFI. What's that have to do with it?
Sorry but most of what you're saying here is an over assumption. Yes most midsize carbs are jetted for a "350 Chevy". But in reality they're jetted for anything that will make the same HP as a typically modified SBC. The brand of engine means nothing.
And I can tell you categorically that a Holley 750 would not be jetted correctly for your stated degree of builds for a 455. I've done dozens of combinations on the dyno and I will tell you that I typically have to richen even an 850, much less a 750.
And even an 850 equipped 500hp 455 typically pulls an inch or more of vacuum by the end of the pull. A 750 is too small for sure.

Hope this helps.

Last edited by cutlassefi; February 11th, 2017 at 06:17 AM.
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Old February 11th, 2017, 08:25 AM
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While you guys are arguing and going back and forth about carb sizes and settings, my 425 is running beautifully with its fuel injection. No primary or secondary jet size worries, no metering rods, choke problems, accelerator problems, air valve opening to soon or to late or to slow, no bogging, running to lean or rich, etc. etc. Moral of the story, dump the carb, one less problem.... Just my opinion.........
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Old February 11th, 2017, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by cutlassefi View Post
Sorry but most of what you're saying here is an over assumption. Yes most midsize carbs are jetted for a "350 Chevy". But in reality they're jetted for anything that will make the same HP as a typically modified SBC. The brand of engine means nothing.
And I can tell you categorically that a Holley 750 would not be jetted correctly for your stated degree of builds for a 455. I've done dozens of combinations on the dyno and I will tell you that I typically have to richen even an 850, much less a 750.
And even an 850 equipped 500hp 455 typically pulls an inch or more of vacuum by the end of the pull. A 750 is too small for sure.

Hope this helps.
Originally Posted by cutlassefi View Post
The brand of engine means nothing.
I disagree because of 'Quality over quantity'


Originally Posted by cutlassefi View Post
And I can tell you categorically that a Holley 750 would not be jetted correctly for your stated degree of builds for a 455. I've done dozens of combinations on the dyno and I will tell you that I typically have to richen even an 850, much less a 750.
I totally agree and this backs up what I'm trying to say. But you have to remember that most people get scared even when doing something like a cam upgrade. Speed shops will recommend what they have in stock or go with a safe choice. It's hard to jet a street engine because which circuit are you reading? One has to have a secluded place to test or go to the track. Not to many people have access to or can even afford to dyno an engine. Most people do backyard stuff and end up with approximately a W30 cam, an Ebrock or Holley carb, and it's all ball parked. Sure the plugs are a bit white or black but, it runs so we'll leave it at that. I have had a lot of people get pissed with their Holley saying it's a bunch of crap. They don't realize that they need to adjust it, and then they get pissed off with the Speed shop because now they have to buy a $100 worth of tuning kits they weren't told about that they'll need (worse case). You must have encountered this, every tuner I know has. Oh, I'm not talking about 500hp engines, I'm talking about 350-450 range.


Originally Posted by cutlassefi View Post
And even an 850 equipped 500hp 455 typically pulls an inch or more of vacuum by the end of the pull. A 750 is too small for sure.
Yup, I know what you mean, my carb is sealed to my hood-scoop and still I have 1.5" of plenum vacuum, it sucks. 96/front 98/back, need bigger.

I could go on and on but, I've said my piece.
Ray
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Old February 11th, 2017, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by 1970-W30 View Post
While you guys are arguing and going back and forth about carb sizes and settings, my 425 is running beautifully with its fuel injection. No primary or secondary jet size worries, no metering rods, choke problems, accelerator problems, air valve opening to soon or to late or to slow, no bogging, running to lean or rich, etc. etc. Moral of the story, dump the carb, one less problem.... Just my opinion.........
I agree, MegaSquirt here we come.

Ray
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Old February 11th, 2017, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by 1970-W30 View Post
While you guys are arguing and going back and forth about carb sizes and settings, my 425 is running beautifully with its fuel injection. No primary or secondary jet size worries, no metering rods, choke problems, accelerator problems, air valve opening to soon or to late or to slow, no bogging, running to lean or rich, etc. etc. Moral of the story, dump the carb, one less problem.... Just my opinion.........
There's a reason why Mark's handle is CutlassEFI.

- Eric
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Old February 11th, 2017, 09:44 AM
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Why don't we wait until the OP responds, as far as I can tell, he hasn't been back on in over a week........
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Old February 11th, 2017, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by RW442 View Post
Already double checked dist. Adjusting timing with vacuum gauge and degreeable timing light. Best vacuum 15" @ 32 starts to pull hard for a sec. Then runs like crap pings horribly cranks poorly, no vacuum advance connected to HEI..Back off dist to mid 20 10" vacuum vehicle starts and idles fine just no power..As I mentioned, I'm also concerned about too much compression? Just not sure of easiest solution? Since everything is new? Thanks again for the great feedback.


We had a local guy here who recently got a 455 from Mondello in Paso Robes.. It was found the lifters were not working, even though brand new. Put in some Comp Cams lifters.

Also note there are 3 Mondello spots. The original in Paso Robles location now run by Lynn, the Tenn location were Joe moved to to do training classes, and Bernard Mondello(Joe's son) in Corona, CA
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Old April 2nd, 2018, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by RW442 View Post
Already double checked dist. Adjusting timing with vacuum gauge and degreeable timing light. Best vacuum 15" @ 32 starts to pull hard for a sec. Then runs like crap pings horribly cranks poorly, no vacuum advance connected to HEI..Back off dist to mid 20 10" vacuum vehicle starts and idles fine just no power..As I mentioned, I'm also concerned about too much compression? Just not sure of easiest solution? Since everything is new? Thanks again for the great feedback.
Let's start with the basics.

You realize that you don't adjust timing with a vacuum gauge don't you? That's idle mix on the carb, that you set to reach the highest vacuum reading.

Total timing is measured at roughly 3000 RPM, and is the max timing mechanical advance can provide, plus initial timing.

Initial timing is set at idle, the timing light zero'd out, as in no advance or retard added, and by viewing the mark on the timing tab on the engine. That should be 12-16 degrees.

It sounds like you are setting initial timing to 32 degrees, that's why you're getting 60+ degrees at RPM. Also why it won't crank, because it's way too far advanced. Probably why it pings too.

So, just to give a basic overview of building an advance curve:

Set Initial timing, set total timing, then determine the rate of advance by using springs (and possibly weights). After that's all done, THEN tune vacuum advance with an adjustable vacuum can.

The only way to adjust total timing on a GM HEI is to fabricate a limiter on the advance plate. Originally, GM HEI weights would limit total advance, but all the crap aftermarket weights these days will push past the flat spot on weights and add advance at higher RPMs. And that's why I say HEI are JUNK. Because you can't get the correct parts to properly tune them.

.
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Old April 2nd, 2018, 08:27 AM
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The OP Has not been back since 02-03-2017, this is an old thread.
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Old April 2nd, 2018, 08:28 AM
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So:

Initial timing + Mechanical timing = Total timing (mechanical)

If you are targeting 32 degrees total mechanical timing, it would look something like this example:

Initial - 16 + Mechanical - 16 = 32

Then you start adjusting vacuum by plugging the vacuum line into the can. Generally, start at the lowest setting, and add like 2 or so degrees and drive it. Keep adding until you hear light ping, and back it off 2 degrees (or more).



.
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Old April 2nd, 2018, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by oldcutlass View Post
The OP Has not been back since 02-03-2017, this is an old thread.
Uhg. That I didn't notice!

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Old April 5th, 2018, 08:58 AM
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You risk over-advancing your ignition if you go by the "advance until it pings, then back off" method.

It might not ping, but it'll ignite prematurely, and thus hammer the bearings.
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Old April 6th, 2018, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Seff View Post
You risk over-advancing your ignition if you go by the "advance until it pings, then back off" method.

It might not ping, but it'll ignite prematurely, and thus hammer the bearings.
The term is 'inaudible detonation', and am very familiar. If you adjust to it barely pings, or 'just' starts to ping, and back off 2 degrees, chances are very good you will be safe. Certainly more safe than the original poster was! If you read through and figure out where he was, he was like MORE than 20 degrees too far advanced.

How would you suggest you reach optimum timing? Set it by what's in the manual?

.
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Old April 6th, 2018, 11:38 AM
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By far the best option is to put it on a dyno, but that's the dream scenario.

Yes, inaudible detonation. I've seen too many people who think "if it doesn't ping, it's okay."
The factory engineers set timing to where peak cylinder pressure was most effective, while being safe. Where we can experience problems is when our fuel is different from the fuel used in the 60s - especially when you run a high compression engine with lower octane fuel. Initial settings vary wildly depending on the compression. Iirc.
If the engine is stock and low compression, I would stick close to factory specs. If it's high compression, I would make sure the fuel is high enough octane, then go to the factory specs. If it isn't high octane, I'd retard until it doesn't ping.
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Old April 6th, 2018, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Seff View Post
... If it isn't high octane, I'd retard until it doesn't ping.
Isn't that basically what I said?

But basically agree with what you said. One of the first things done to improve power back in the day was, recurve the distributor. Because the factor was TOO safe/lazy. And not many run 100% factory configurations anymore.

Go back and read what the original poster posted, and let me know what you think the issue is here. Or was, actually. I found it kind of amusing how many drifted off into a conversation of who the engine should be built by. Heheh!

.
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Old April 6th, 2018, 01:14 PM
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Oh no no, we agree completely - the original poster had timing all over the place.

Yes, you said that. I'm nit-picking, because some people apply the ping-and-retard principle to low compression engines too, where it can be dangerous.

The factory had to ensure that people running on crappy fuel would not ruin their engines. They also had to average a variety of conditions like temperature and altitude. Erring to the side of caution makes sense.
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Old April 10th, 2018, 09:24 AM
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I would and have in the past run a higher grade of gas then the engine was built for. After the engine was tuned for best performance I would then attempt to de-tune for a lower grade of fuel.
By starting with the higher grade of fuel you eliminate the fuel as being a factor when sorting the fuel and ignition system on a new build.
I also think it provides a safety margin during this tuning period.
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Old June 1st, 2018, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by RW442 View Post
Hello, my name is rob, i ordered a 455 engine from mondello and after install i can not get the pining to go away, the vehicle is very low on power at w.o.t. Pings very bad will not even spin a tire.

Everything is brand new as follows:

455 block bored .030 over forged flat top pistons
aluminum intake
750 cfm demon carb
aluminum heads 2.075 x 1.690 valves
cam jm 20/22 mondello in. 496, ex. 520, running duration 300/310
gross cam lift at .050 intake 300 / 224
exhaust 310/234
lobe centers 112
valve lash hyd.
Hei ignition. Unplugged vacuum advance due to too much timing.

After install, i was told to adjust the total timing at 32 deg. The vehicle pings horribly and immediately jumps to 60 deg making it worse, the only way to get the vehicle to start correctly is retard the timing to total 28 deg, and base at about 15 deg.
Rechecked cam timing, all marks are centered. I'm very concerned about the cam being to big or compression being too high for 92 octain fuel? This is very discouraging since i just spent so much money to have a drop in motor i could run on pumped gas..just looking for some feedback on easiest solutions to fix this problem..and mondello said the motor should be at least 500 horsepower but i cant even get the rear tires to spin? Pings like crazy and now power.

Please help! Thank you!
Rob.
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Old June 1st, 2018, 04:49 AM
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Your initial timing should be around 12 degress BTDC. The total advance could be 32, I personally run 36 total all in by 3400 RPM. if you are setting your initial timing at 32 degrees, lucky you didn't break a piston with the violent detonation you will be having??? Just sayin'
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