young olds

I'm thinking about going to fuel injection on my turbo car. I want to do multiport/ direct port( whatever the correct term is) with my current intake. Thinking I want something with self learning and able to tune myself. Anyone have any experience or any suggestions. i have meth injection now so something that can control that would be nice also might consider running e85.

young olds

The Holley hp efi seems to be in line with what I'm looking for. Anyone know anyone else with a similar product? Idk who all my options are, basically all I know of is Holley and megasquirt. Also I'd consider a tbi as long as the injectors aren't overtop the tb and it's a cheaper option.

oddball

Mark (cutlassefi) does the most EFI work around here. I forget which product suite he uses now - his prior supplier (Accel DFI) killed their product line when Holley bought them up. He can provide a full solution and he knows the pluses and minuses of the stuff on the market.

TBI is cheaper, but most TBI systems don't have the same level of tuneability as multiport, and you still have the same air/fuel flow and mixture issues as a carb. TBI can be an improvement on a carb, but that depends on how bad the carb is - TBI is not necessarily dramatically better than a carb.

Decide how much you want to spend, then figure out how much tech you want. If you go multiport sequential, then you need a dual sync dizzy. Multiport batch and TBI can use standard ignitions. Then it falls to how much tuning and control you want in the system, and how you plan to get it tuned.

young olds

i was told to look into haltech by a coworker, seems ok but im still really not sure what im looking at/for. where are you cutlass efi

cutlassefi

Here I am!!

Holley HP won't do E85, and quite frankly I'm not a real fan of their software.
I'd sell you a used Accel DFI if you weren't thinking about E85. But I agree with your strategy, especially with a blower. E85 has substantial benefits.

I'd do the AEM 508 Infinity. Wicked fast processor(400mips), Nitrous, boost control, E85 and multifuel capable, coil on plug, drive by wire and a crapload of datalogging capability. It's not self learning but because of the processor it'll run great right out of the box and it's very easy to tune.
Here it is with just a base tune in it,
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...d-monster.html

More info on the system;
http://www.aemelectronics.com/produc.../infinity-6-8h

It'll control your current meth injection as well. But you probably won't need that if you're going to run E85.
Hope this helps.

young olds

thanks for chiming in. i did look into the aem infinity series as well as megasquirt ms3, havent found anything else to look into yet. i havent decided how i want to do my ignition but distributorless for sure. i do have a ford edis system i was going to run with a megajolt that i never ended up using. id really love to go e85 but only two stations in washington with it and the one on my side of the state is 20min away so e85 is dependent on how much of a street car it stays. do you have any experiance with haltech? what kind of throttle body can i run with these? id like something that will be a bolt on replacement for a carb to keep my piping and throttle linkage simple.

young olds

how will running an accel set up be in the future with holley bringing it to an end? if i dont go e85 id consider it if it will be supported for a while.

cutlassefi

I'll support it for a good long while, I have extra pieces as well.
Haltech is more engineering based, a bit harder to set up.
Might be good to start with an Accel or similar to get your feet wet, real easy to tune and will drive very well. Might be the way to go especially if E85 is only on the wish list.
Throttle bodies are all pretty much the same, linkages are as well. They mimic a carb for the most part.

64Rocket

also look into a set up called "Fitech" self learning sys.

Gene

young olds

I'm leaning towards the aem. But What about everything else, what will I need as far as injectors, sensors, tb, map or maf?

cutlassefi

That would be a good choice.
No MAF, MAP only.
That's the beauty of the AEM, it'll work with a host of different sensors and injectors. GM, Chrysler, BMW, Honda, AEM, and a bunch of others. But your basic GM stuff from Autozone or Napa will work just fine. Throttle body just depends on what TPS and IAC it'll use. Most use GM stuff, no issue there either.

olzman

If you can get e98 you can make your own e85. Ethanol can only be sold for a fuel as e98 has to be denatured with 2% of something otherwise it has to be taxed as a liquor. I started mixing my own e85 because of vast differences in quality. But good clean e98 is fairly easy to get in Nebraska.

young olds

I won't tear the car down till this winter so I can continue to drive it but I would like to start collecting parts. What would you recommend for a tb, injectors and rail, fuel pump etc. I'm guessing sensors like temp, o2 etc are pretty generic?

Rick Finsta

Work with www.diyautotune.com if you are considering MS3. I would suggest you look at the MS3 Pro instead of the older MS3+3X box if you go that direction since it simplifies wiring and gives you a better product for not much more upfront investment. Other than that just pick a system that will do what you want with the level of support you want. Play around in the software if you can before you choose, or at least watch some videos.

Depending on what coils you want to run you will need either logic level or high current control so just know which so you get the necessary peripherals.

Same for injectors - high or low impedance.

Many ECUs will require an outboard O2 sensor controller; the new AEMs have that onboard but only run the older LSU 4.2 sensor - not a big deal since they will sell you a sensor calibrated to their control circuit.

Do you want to run anything via CANbus? Just another thing to think about.

Fuelab makes great pumps with onboard PWM control.

For rail if you want to DIY you can look at Ross Machine Racing for the extrusions and bung inserts and then either make your own jigs/tooling or you can work with a local machine shop for the installation. Otherwise plenty of places will sell you an already-modified manifold. There is a guy on YB that makes fuel rail hold-downs that work on an Olds manifold but I'd have to dig up his user name for you.

For a throttle body don't cheap out, and don't get something with an oddball TPS. Lots of mainstream choices out there. I like Accufab's stuff. I personally prefer a stepper IAC rather than PWM but either can work well.

Lots of decisions for you to make.

cutlassefi

As mentioned not really an issue. As you can see some 4.2's are still more accurate than the 4.9. The controller being used has a huge influence on speed and accuracy.
http://aemelectronics.com/files/info...ison_Chart.jpg

jeure

Just wanted to jump in and comment on the motor that cutlassefi referenced in his first post (red monster). Mark built that for me and I have to say that this big block is as responsive as any motor I have ever seen. Maybe it is the fast processor combined with an engine builder that knows exactly what he is doing and does not cut corners. The motor was shipped to me in Texas and my car guy here had NO experience with fuel injection set up. Mark stayed with him the whole way and I have a very responsive car that runs very well even with the air conditioning on. I am a very happy customer of cutlassefi!

young olds

I like that accufab has low profile tb's anyone else have those as well? There's a wilsons manifold tb on my local Craigslist, are those particularly good? Any other brands I should check into?

cutlassefi

Yes Wilson is good stuff.
Most all of them are ok, just have to check to make sure the throttle blades line up well and the throttles close like they're supposed to.
And thank you Jim, I appreciate the kind words. Glad it's running well.

young olds

im thinking of running a single bosch 044 or aem 50-1005 to start then i can add another one and run a dual pump "parallel" setup if i ever need more. any thoughts on this?

cutlassefi

Needless to say I like the AEM stuff.

young olds

Is the aem pump as quiet and durable as the o44 is supposed to be? Btw I decided against e85 since I plan on driving it a lot.

cutlassefi

yes, very quiet and reliable. Left you a PM.

fleming442

Go Flex Fuel, so you don't have to worry about it.

young olds

Mark, aeromotive offers a regulator that can be used with carbs and efi by way of changing from a low pressure spring to a high pressure spring, does the aem 25-302bk offer the same thing? I only want to by a regulator once but I need one to work with the car till I go efi. Tried aem website but I didn't see anything about it

Rick Finsta

I'll dig around but I might have an 044 that you can have for shipping cost. I've got the AN adapters for it, too.

young olds

Let me know if you find it

cutlassefi

I think Mallory makes one that'll go from carb to Efi. I'll check, sorry for the delay.

Rick Finsta

I found the 044 - it has -8AN fittings (that sounds a little optimistic but I wanted to plumb the car once so everything is pretty over-sized). Drop me a PM with your address.

The Fuelab 529 electronic regulator setups are super trick, but only go down to 25psig so that's a no-go for a carburetor.

You also could look at a factory PWM controller like the Fords use depending on what ECU you choose but again, that won't help you interim.

young olds

Pm sent

distributorguy

I'm running the MS3Pro on a Flathead Ford right now and it has every capability you can dream of, software updates are free as folks design new gadgets. Easy to switch between multiple fuel and ignition maps for E15, E85, alcohol, whatever. BUT its one of the most difficult initial setups you'll find.
The FI Tech is the easiest setup you'll find, but its wet manifold (TB). Their customer support is second to none, and they do offer ignition control with boost applications. No power gain over a properly tuned carb, like any other system, until you get into individual cylinder trim (which they don't offer).

young olds

I went with an accel ecu from mark, got a good deal and couldn't pass it up. Looking into injector bungs, injectors and fuel rails so I can start converting my intake. Any suggestions?

distributorguy

Make injector bungs and have them welded in place. Any shop with a lathe can do that for you. Injector angle matters, so do some research. If you can point them upstream (or downstream), it can actually help keep the fuel suspended. We found 30-45 degrees into the airstream (tilted from 90) helps prevent fuel adhering to the opposite wall. That can also be avoided by using better injectors - that testing was done long ago and may no longer be valid with new spray patterns.

Ask Mark what he recommends. I would have used the FiTech system. Super easy, and the least expensive option overall. You can set it up as a blow-through if you want, supports up to 1200hp and distributorless ignition with laptop tuning.

marxjunk

the injector needs to point at the valve stem/back face..its important..or you knock the fuel out of suspension and it runs down the port wall..and thats bad..

cutlassefi

Some bad info here, I'll try to clear things up a bit.

Distributorguy - you can't have individual cylinder trim on an TB anyway, that's why they don't offer it. And I don't know of any modern day system that doesn't offer free software upgrades, and for most they're normally done by engineers, not privateers like MS. Accel offered free upgrades way back in 2002.
But glad to see MS is finally with the times. They were actually one of the last systems to offer something as basic as sequential, go figure.

Distributorguy/Marxjunk - injector placement doesn't mean squat if you're running in batch or don't have an adjustable sequential system. You can throw all that out the window unless you can adjust inj timing throughout the rpm range. And every system takes "wall wetting" into consideration. Ford had a "TAU" table back in the 90's that addressed that very issue. Plus there are other aspects to wall wetting than just injector placement.

distributorguy

Since youngolds asked about bungs, I figured I'd bring up placement. You'll also note that I referred him back to you, since you sold him the computer.

There's no guarantee that engineers can get a system "right". Basic ignition components like Pertronix prove that. Sometimes engineers overthink non-essentials and miss the big picture. Like FAST who can't ever send the right electrical connectors in a package. And Pertronix who can't install a simple Zener diode.

If you want us to all stop answering questions (and bringing up more thought provoking topics), maybe you should be pro-active and help Youngolds so he doesn't have to come here to ask. Obviously he needs help with his system.

marxjunk

why would anyone build a system from scratch and not use sequential?

theres 300,000 pages about injector placement importance in a simple google search and they are all the same general consensus.."it does matter"..theres many reasons why....

any individual doing anything should do their own research and then determine whats right for their project.....opinions and advice are everywhere...i'm talking about looking at actual builds, people love to post their builds and read thru them and gain from the builders hands on experience...


wall wetting and puddling can be horsepower loss..carb or injection..why not do something to help avoid it or minimize the condition if you can? I mean if you are building an intake from scratch..do something to help yourself..you are spending the money/time/labor anyway..and try to maximize your situation/build..

cutlassefi

"Why would anyone build a system from scratch and not use sequential?" You tell me.

"Wall wetting and puddling can be horsepower loss..carb or injection..why not do something to help avoid it or minimize the condition if you can? I mean if you are building an intake from scratch..do something to help yourself..you are spending the money/time/labor anyway..and try to maximize your situation/build."

Wall wetting has little to do with any potential loss of hp. It will however effect drivability if in excess. But conversely it's needed at first startup
And puddling can happen anywhere in the intake manifold, so you may want to look further into the "Tau" theory. Let us know what you find out.

Hope this helps.

young olds

Wow, thanks guys. I'm not coming back here because mark isn't or hadn't been helping me. I like to hear/get ideas from multiple sources, not that I don't trust mark I just like multiple inputs along with my own research. And yes I do my own research, I research things as a pass time, I enjoy it and learn in the process. This thread is to get ideas and input on what's out there, this will be my first time putting a fuel injected engine together so I don't really know where to start.

marxjunk

an injector pointing at a wall instead of down the throat wouldnt just cause an EXCESS "wetting" condition in that port ..it would be more like port saturation....fuel would be knocked out of suspension/mist and puddle..i dunno..i believe injector placement and spray direction is important and always will..

drive-ability IS the reason to go to injection..weather its MPG..cruise ability or the opportunity to tune for max HP etc..do what you can to maximize everything you do..if you are building from scratch...and look at injector placement..i didnt want to start a debate..but if something good comes out of it ..so be it..

i read and saw the TAU theory years ago...its been around since the 80s..i was working in dealerships backthen and we had to keep up with continuing education...back then i enjoyed it.

heres the TAU theory explained very well on the megasquirt site..in simple terms for others looking at injection...the forst 5 paragraphs are the most interesting to me..talks about excessive wall wetting in there somewhere and the condition it creates and lightly talks about the solution.

http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/xtau.htm

and i watched this video the first time in 2012...if you can stand the dryness lecture..it has a lot of good info

cutlassefi

Get back to us when you actually start tuning your MS and we can go from there.