aluminum heads
December 10th, 2018, 02:48 PM
#1
aluminum heads
I was looking around and found Bernard Mondello he has his own shop not affiliated with the original Mondello He uses speed master heads has anyone used these and if so what are your thoughts there a lot less expensive than the Edelbrocks
December 10th, 2018, 03:50 PM
#2
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I offer them as well. Best bang for the buck for sure.
December 11th, 2018, 06:49 AM
#3
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Location: Plano, TX
Posts: 1,842
The general consensus is that the castings and basic machining are good. They should be carefully checked if buying fully assembled. Best route is going through a competent shop like Bernard's. They'll typically order the bare heads and inspect/assemble themselves.
December 12th, 2018, 11:50 AM
#4
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 719
I bough a pair of bare Speedmaster heads off Spedmaster on Ebay, for 286.36 each on Black Friday weekend. No valves, springs, retainers or pushrod guide plates They may do a price drop again towards Christmas.
Bernard seems to be a good guy, for those who do not have access to a good machine shop and can't do the work for themselves.
Bernard seems to be a good guy, for those who do not have access to a good machine shop and can't do the work for themselves.
December 12th, 2018, 11:23 PM
#5
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Is it just me, or doesn’t everybody else wish that one of the great head porters would fully work a set of Edelbrocks over or these other brand heads, then make a “race casting” head that starts out with 290+ cfm of intake flow out of the box.
I have worked on hot engines since I was 13, and I have always thought it was the dumbest thing in the world to make a new,mediocre-flowing head casting the final product that buyers pay a bunch of money for, and then have to port the heck out of them if you really want a bunch of power.
If a frickin L92 6.2L LS series Chevy Head can flow over 300+cfm in stock form...... tap, tap, tap
I have worked on hot engines since I was 13, and I have always thought it was the dumbest thing in the world to make a new,mediocre-flowing head casting the final product that buyers pay a bunch of money for, and then have to port the heck out of them if you really want a bunch of power.
If a frickin L92 6.2L LS series Chevy Head can flow over 300+cfm in stock form...... tap, tap, tap
December 13th, 2018, 12:37 AM
#6
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 719
Is it just me, or doesn’t everybody else wish that one of the great head porters would fully work a set of Edelbrocks over or these other brand heads, then make a “race casting” head that starts out with 290+ cfm of intake flow out of the box.
I have worked on hot engines since I was 13, and I have always thought it was the dumbest thing in the world to make a new,mediocre-flowing head casting the final product that buyers pay a bunch of money for, and then have to port the heck out of them if you really want a bunch of power.
If a frickin L92 6.2L LS series Chevy Head can flow over 300+cfm in stock form...... tap, tap, tap
I have worked on hot engines since I was 13, and I have always thought it was the dumbest thing in the world to make a new,mediocre-flowing head casting the final product that buyers pay a bunch of money for, and then have to port the heck out of them if you really want a bunch of power.
If a frickin L92 6.2L LS series Chevy Head can flow over 300+cfm in stock form...... tap, tap, tap
These aluminum heads can be easily redone, to meet the flow of 99.99% of olds racers, and at a reasonable price close to what the Chevy's cost aftermarket. With a little work these Olds Speedmaster flow
.100 73
.200 146
.300 207
.400 247
.500 270
.600 288
.700 301
Unlike Iron aluminum is soft and easier to modify to the required flow, which might be less than those numbers.
Bernard says they flow
Valve Lift Port #1 Port #3 Port #5 Port #7
100 67.02 64.51 64.15 66.09
200 140.00 132.48 132.48 140.00
300 187.80 189.20 189.29 196.75
400 225.07 226.56 222.08 244.44
500 233.71 229.54 236.10 245.63
550 239.08 232.52 229.54 250.40
600 241.46 234.01 231.03 251.00
650 240.27 236.99 232.52 250.40
Smitty said out of the box stock
.100 70
.200 143
.300 205
.400 227
.500 231
.600 235
Those are not bad flow numbers for a fairly streetable or stock type BBOs, and greatly exceed stock SBO's numbers.
December 13th, 2018, 05:13 AM
#7
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central Fl
Posts: 7,820
The Procomps I offer flow about 255@.600 and have polished chambers. They're $1850 plus the ride and I've made over 550 with them fairly easily with 0 issues. Just sayin. And there are stock port location Olds aluminum heads out there that flow about 300.
Have faith though, there is better out of the box stuff coming, but will the Olds community buy it. That remains to be seen.
Have faith though, there is better out of the box stuff coming, but will the Olds community buy it. That remains to be seen.
Last edited by cutlassefi; December 13th, 2018 at 05:17 AM.
December 13th, 2018, 05:40 AM
#8
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Colorado Springs Colorado/Thousand Oaks Ca
Posts: 1,719
But the Chevy's flow like that, with stock intakes and exhaust port locations. Battens aren't stock locations and neither are the high flowing port jobs on Oldsmobiles. But then again the Olds normally are at lower RPMs, so need less flow to make their power.
These aluminum heads can be easily redone, to meet the flow of 99.99% of olds racers, and at a reasonable price close to what the Chevy's cost aftermarket. With a little work these Olds Speedmaster flow
.100 73
.200 146
.300 207
.400 247
.500 270
.600 288
.700 301
Unlike Iron aluminum is soft and easier to modify to the required flow, which might be less than those numbers.
Bernard says they flow
Valve Lift Port #1 Port #3 Port #5 Port #7
100 67.02 64.51 64.15 66.09
200 140.00 132.48 132.48 140.00
300 187.80 189.20 189.29 196.75
400 225.07 226.56 222.08 244.44
500 233.71 229.54 236.10 245.63
550 239.08 232.52 229.54 250.40
600 241.46 234.01 231.03 251.00
650 240.27 236.99 232.52 250.40
Smitty said out of the box stock
.100 70
.200 143
.300 205
.400 227
.500 231
.600 235
Those are not bad flow numbers for a fairly streetable or stock type BBOs, and greatly exceed stock SBO's numbers.
These aluminum heads can be easily redone, to meet the flow of 99.99% of olds racers, and at a reasonable price close to what the Chevy's cost aftermarket. With a little work these Olds Speedmaster flow
.100 73
.200 146
.300 207
.400 247
.500 270
.600 288
.700 301
Unlike Iron aluminum is soft and easier to modify to the required flow, which might be less than those numbers.
Bernard says they flow
Valve Lift Port #1 Port #3 Port #5 Port #7
100 67.02 64.51 64.15 66.09
200 140.00 132.48 132.48 140.00
300 187.80 189.20 189.29 196.75
400 225.07 226.56 222.08 244.44
500 233.71 229.54 236.10 245.63
550 239.08 232.52 229.54 250.40
600 241.46 234.01 231.03 251.00
650 240.27 236.99 232.52 250.40
Smitty said out of the box stock
.100 70
.200 143
.300 205
.400 227
.500 231
.600 235
Those are not bad flow numbers for a fairly streetable or stock type BBOs, and greatly exceed stock SBO's numbers.
Ported G production 455 head
.200 158
.300 213
.400 251
.500 270
.550 274
.600 275
Tested @ 28 inches SF 600 2.100 valve, 4.155 bore.
Last edited by VORTECPRO; December 13th, 2018 at 05:44 AM.
December 13th, 2018, 08:00 AM
#9
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 719
The first BBOs steel ported heads I saw 40+ years ago came from Valley and featured 2.25 intakes valves. 1.60 on the exhaust.
December 13th, 2018, 10:46 AM
#10
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Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 762
My trouble is that these companies don’t cast a ported version of a vastly improved head for Oldsmobile’s,
Saying that the stock heads flow “well enough” for BBO is a joke to me, when I compare what production GM truck engines’ heads flow for 366c.i. engines......
Ok, we can make moderate-higher horsepower with big cams and mediocre heads.... but why not do better?
It would be nice to make 550hp+ with a mild 220-230 duration cam and 9:1 compression, and at less than 5500rpm.
A really good head/cam/intake combo should make this easily capable.
Adding compression to get up in the 12-13:1 range, add a roller cam in the 240-260 duration @ .050 and these same as-cast-improved heads should push in the 650-680hp at 6-6,500 rpm range if all is correct. It seems like most Olds engines with bigger cams (250+@.050) and high compression struggle hard to get over 600hp.
Saying that the stock heads flow “well enough” for BBO is a joke to me, when I compare what production GM truck engines’ heads flow for 366c.i. engines......
Ok, we can make moderate-higher horsepower with big cams and mediocre heads.... but why not do better?
It would be nice to make 550hp+ with a mild 220-230 duration cam and 9:1 compression, and at less than 5500rpm.
A really good head/cam/intake combo should make this easily capable.
Adding compression to get up in the 12-13:1 range, add a roller cam in the 240-260 duration @ .050 and these same as-cast-improved heads should push in the 650-680hp at 6-6,500 rpm range if all is correct. It seems like most Olds engines with bigger cams (250+@.050) and high compression struggle hard to get over 600hp.
December 13th, 2018, 12:23 PM
#11
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 719
My trouble is that these companies don’t cast a ported version of a vastly improved head for Oldsmobile’s,
Saying that the stock heads flow “well enough” for BBO is a joke to me, when I compare what production GM truck engines’ heads flow for 366c.i. engines......
Ok, we can make moderate-higher horsepower with big cams and mediocre heads.... but why not do better?
It would be nice to make 550hp+ with a mild 220-230 duration cam and 9:1 compression, and at less than 5500rpm.
A really good head/cam/intake combo should make this easily capable.
Adding compression to get up in the 12-13:1 range, add a roller cam in the 240-260 duration @ .050 and these same as-cast-improved heads should push in the 650-680hp at 6-6,500 rpm range if all is correct. It seems like most Olds engines with bigger cams (250+@.050) and high compression struggle hard to get over 600hp.
Saying that the stock heads flow “well enough” for BBO is a joke to me, when I compare what production GM truck engines’ heads flow for 366c.i. engines......
Ok, we can make moderate-higher horsepower with big cams and mediocre heads.... but why not do better?
It would be nice to make 550hp+ with a mild 220-230 duration cam and 9:1 compression, and at less than 5500rpm.
A really good head/cam/intake combo should make this easily capable.
Adding compression to get up in the 12-13:1 range, add a roller cam in the 240-260 duration @ .050 and these same as-cast-improved heads should push in the 650-680hp at 6-6,500 rpm range if all is correct. It seems like most Olds engines with bigger cams (250+@.050) and high compression struggle hard to get over 600hp.
A lot of things go wrong when trying to RPM them which we call horsepower. The crank turns into a wet noodle(@BTR), the bearing speeds and sizes are all wrong. and more, and it all eats horsepower or high rpm torque. An Olds is not a FORD, Chevy, or Chrysler. Its mainly a torque motor and less rpm dependent, unless you want to spend 20-30,000 dollars on morphing it into them. But few want this, and many a torque motor has beaten a high rpm other brand RPM motor with higher horsepower in drag racing. I look at torque and where it happens and not horsepower.
December 13th, 2018, 02:00 PM
#12
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Tyler Texas
Posts: 86
My trouble is that these companies don’t cast a ported version of a vastly improved head for Oldsmobile’s,
Saying that the stock heads flow “well enough” for BBO is a joke to me, when I compare what production GM truck engines’ heads flow for 366c.i. engines......
Ok, we can make moderate-higher horsepower with big cams and mediocre heads.... but why not do better?
It would be nice to make 550hp+ with a mild 220-230 duration cam and 9:1 compression, and at less than 5500rpm.
A really good head/cam/intake combo should make this easily capable.
Adding compression to get up in the 12-13:1 range, add a roller cam in the 240-260 duration @ .050 and these same as-cast-improved heads should push in the 650-680hp at 6-6,500 rpm range if all is correct. It seems like most Olds engines with bigger cams (250+@.050) and high compression struggle hard to get over 600hp.
Saying that the stock heads flow “well enough” for BBO is a joke to me, when I compare what production GM truck engines’ heads flow for 366c.i. engines......
Ok, we can make moderate-higher horsepower with big cams and mediocre heads.... but why not do better?
It would be nice to make 550hp+ with a mild 220-230 duration cam and 9:1 compression, and at less than 5500rpm.
A really good head/cam/intake combo should make this easily capable.
Adding compression to get up in the 12-13:1 range, add a roller cam in the 240-260 duration @ .050 and these same as-cast-improved heads should push in the 650-680hp at 6-6,500 rpm range if all is correct. It seems like most Olds engines with bigger cams (250+@.050) and high compression struggle hard to get over 600hp.
But you are right!
December 13th, 2018, 02:06 PM
#13
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Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Tyler Texas
Posts: 86
What he is saying is right. Im still confused why they designed an aftermarket LS1 block that has LS1 heads but uses first gen sbc rotating assemble and hardware. Why not desigh an LS1 style head that fits the first gen block, So that being said, I do believe someone could cast an "LS7" style head that bolts to the factory OLDS block. Or any other block. Its so easy it might just work!
December 13th, 2018, 02:09 PM
#14
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Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Tyler Texas
Posts: 86
December 13th, 2018, 02:29 PM
#15
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 719
What he is saying is right. Im still confused why they designed an aftermarket LS1 block that has LS1 heads but uses first gen sbc rotating assemble and hardware. Why not desigh an LS1 style head that fits the first gen block, So that being said, I do believe someone could cast an "LS7" style head that bolts to the factory OLDS block. Or any other block. Its so easy it might just work!
December 13th, 2018, 05:10 PM
#16
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Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 762
Hopefully you can fly up to Colorado sometime in the next year, meet Vortecpro Mark, and we can all bench race in person, and go to the ‘strip so you can see what it’s like to race at 8000’ D.A.
Maybe we should even have a “port-off” competition to see who can get what numbers out of their best heads, then have someone volunteer a Dyno to baseline a well built shortblock 455 engine with stock C heads to compete and try out the best ported heads for comparison.
Last edited by Battenrunner; December 13th, 2018 at 05:23 PM.
December 13th, 2018, 05:46 PM
#17
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central Fl
Posts: 7,820
I think what's being forgotten here is that when it comes to big blocks, short of a $5000.00 block from Rocket, we just don't have the platform to support anything over about 650 anyway. Not unless you put in lots of band-aids on the stocker.
I made 622 with 285@.600 Edelbrocks on a 480 stroker short block. If you use the right combo you can make decent power with what we have today. But again much beyond that, if you're using the stock block you'll just be scattering pieces everywhere anyway.
I made 622 with 285@.600 Edelbrocks on a 480 stroker short block. If you use the right combo you can make decent power with what we have today. But again much beyond that, if you're using the stock block you'll just be scattering pieces everywhere anyway.
December 13th, 2018, 06:37 PM
#18
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Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 762
I think what's being forgotten here is that when it comes to big blocks, short of a $5000.00 block from Rocket, we just don't have the platform to support anything over about 650 anyway. Not unless you put in lots of band-aids on the stocker.
I made 622 with 285@.600 Edelbrocks on a 480 stroker short block. If you use the right combo you can make decent power with what we have today. But again much beyond that, if you're using the stock block you'll just be scattering pieces everywhere anyway.
I made 622 with 285@.600 Edelbrocks on a 480 stroker short block. If you use the right combo you can make decent power with what we have today. But again much beyond that, if you're using the stock block you'll just be scattering pieces everywhere anyway.
So, I think I see what you are saying, we just need to have a custom light billet crank and a set of pistons made so we can use the LS7 titanium rods and keep it under 7,000rpm..... with a stock block,right?
:-)
Last edited by Battenrunner; December 13th, 2018 at 06:44 PM.
August 19th, 2019, 08:02 AM
#19
The Procomps I offer flow about "255@.600" and have polished chambers. They're $1850 plus the ride and I've made over 550 with them fairly easily with 0 issues. Just sayin. And there are stock port location Olds aluminum heads out there that flow about 300.
Have faith though, there is better out of the box stuff coming, but will the Olds community buy it. That remains to be seen.
Have faith though, there is better out of the box stuff coming, but will the Olds community buy it. That remains to be seen.
August 19th, 2019, 01:43 PM
#20
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Central Fl
Posts: 7,820
Hey @cutlassefi , re the referenced heads, are these naked or complete. And any update on the out of box stuff coming.
September 9th, 2019, 05:09 AM
#21
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Colorado Springs Colorado/Thousand Oaks Ca
Posts: 1,719
But the Chevy's flow like that, with stock intakes and exhaust port locations. Battens aren't stock locations and neither are the high flowing port jobs on Oldsmobiles. But then again the Olds normally are at lower RPMs, so need less flow to make their power.
These aluminum heads can be easily redone, to meet the flow of 99.99% of olds racers, and at a reasonable price close to what the Chevy's cost aftermarket. With a little work these Olds Speedmaster flow
.100 73
.200 146
.300 207
.400 247
.500 270
.600 288
.700 301
Unlike Iron aluminum is soft and easier to modify to the required flow, which might be less than those numbers.
Bernard says they flow
Valve Lift Port #1 Port #3 Port #5 Port #7
100 67.02 64.51 64.15 66.09
200 140.00 132.48 132.48 140.00
300 187.80 189.20 189.29 196.75
400 225.07 226.56 222.08 244.44
500 233.71 229.54 236.10 245.63
550 239.08 232.52 229.54 250.40
600 241.46 234.01 231.03 251.00
650 240.27 236.99 232.52 250.40
Smitty said out of the box stock
.100 70
.200 143
.300 205
.400 227
.500 231
.600 235
Those are not bad flow numbers for a fairly streetable or stock type BBOs, and greatly exceed stock SBO's numbers.
These aluminum heads can be easily redone, to meet the flow of 99.99% of olds racers, and at a reasonable price close to what the Chevy's cost aftermarket. With a little work these Olds Speedmaster flow
.100 73
.200 146
.300 207
.400 247
.500 270
.600 288
.700 301
Unlike Iron aluminum is soft and easier to modify to the required flow, which might be less than those numbers.
Bernard says they flow
Valve Lift Port #1 Port #3 Port #5 Port #7
100 67.02 64.51 64.15 66.09
200 140.00 132.48 132.48 140.00
300 187.80 189.20 189.29 196.75
400 225.07 226.56 222.08 244.44
500 233.71 229.54 236.10 245.63
550 239.08 232.52 229.54 250.40
600 241.46 234.01 231.03 251.00
650 240.27 236.99 232.52 250.40
Smitty said out of the box stock
.100 70
.200 143
.300 205
.400 227
.500 231
.600 235
Those are not bad flow numbers for a fairly streetable or stock type BBOs, and greatly exceed stock SBO's numbers.
September 9th, 2019, 07:23 AM
#22
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Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 762
To me all the flow numbers above are deficient for feeding a performance 460 inch engine.To give you an example, A peanut port smog head ported with a 2.190 valve will decimate any of the flow numbers above. Any accurate dyno testing will prove this point. My experience with these 455s is the bore size and port lay out holds power back. As far as a Batten head goes I'am no fan of those either, theres no reason a well ported C head can't go a reliable 290 CFM @ 28 inches with decent low lift flow, that would be my choice.
Mark, I wish I had the money and time for you to further develop these Batten heads and make some new, heavy-duty castings of aluminum with the developed head as a pattern for the casting. Something pushing 280-290cfm @.400 would be awesome for the Olds community. At this point, it seems like most people with lots of money for Oldsmobiles are only spending it on numbers-matching collector cars or doing LS swaps on nice drivers. I think the aftermarket aluminum head market is somewhat there, if it takes stock intake patterns and stock-replacement rocker arms that are affordable (Edelbrock and Pro-comps).
Last edited by Battenrunner; September 9th, 2019 at 10:04 AM.
September 9th, 2019, 06:41 PM
#23
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Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Colorado Springs Colorado/Thousand Oaks Ca
Posts: 1,719
Mark, I wish I had the money and time for you to further develop these Batten heads and make some new, heavy-duty castings of aluminum with the developed head as a pattern for the casting. Something pushing 280-290cfm @.400 would be awesome for the Olds community. At this point, it seems like most people with lots of money for Oldsmobiles are only spending it on numbers-matching collector cars or doing LS swaps on nice drivers. I think the aftermarket aluminum head market is somewhat there, if it takes stock intake patterns and stock-replacement rocker arms that are affordable (Edelbrock and Pro-comps).
"At this point, it seems like most people with lots of money for Oldsmobiles are only spending it on numbers-matching collector cars or doing LS swaps on nice drivers"
Not everyone.....................
Last edited by VORTECPRO; September 9th, 2019 at 06:47 PM.
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