Delta88Royale

My relay has gone out and this leaves my top inoperable. I can't seem to find any company that makes new ones so I am hoping someone has one in a car that they aren't using or someone has some extra ones. Please let me know because I would love to get my top working ASAP.

MDchanic

You can either use the original-type relay, which, in addition to '71-'76 B-bodies was also used on Corvair convertible tops and on power seats, and which costs about $50 and is prone to failure, or you can reconfigure the system to work with two relays, providing more power, more reliably to the top motor, and running less current through the delicate top switch.

See here.

- Eric

Delta88Royale

Eric you rock!!!!! I am horrible at electrical but I will take a stab at this in the next few weeks if I can't find someone to help me out here in Sacramento lol

Delta88Royale

Ok, so I have looked over your wiring diagram and that drawings in association with the DPDT that you have used. I am just having an issue of which wire is going to which location within each "relay" and how you drew only 3 entry and exit points on them but I see 4.
It's just difficult for me to figure all of it out without having any knowledge of wiring lol. I feel that if I am able to slightly "dumb it down" I can get it and order the relays you have shown and get the top working again

MDchanic

I just added this schematic to that thread - it's a little bit clearer, but I haven't had the time to add any text to it. The symbols are all the official universal ones, instead of my own handwritten ones, so it may be easier to understand.



- Eric

Delta88Royale

I can see what you are going for in your drawing but I was curious about you DPDT switch bc I followed you link and it has 8 "ports" vs, what I assumed is, your 6

MDchanic

From the same pdf from Tyco about the T92 series:



0 — 1: Pull-in coil

7 and 3: Normally-closed contacts

2 and 6: Normally-open contacts

4 and 8: Common contacts


I could have the normally-open and normally-closed reversed (they're graphically reversed from where I would expect them to be in the picture), but that's easy enough to figure out in practice.

Remember, I chose this particular relay because it wasn't significantly more expensive than others of similar capacity, but seemed to be very robust and weather resistant - any DPST or DPDT 12VDC relay with a 30-40A capacity that you happen to have in a coffee can in the garage would work fine.

- Eric

Delta88Royale

ok, so I get the general idea for this, the only question left is how am I suppose to connect 0 and 1?

MDchanic

One of them goes to ground, the other to one of them goes to one of the wires from the top switch.

On the other relay, one goes to ground and the other to the other wire from the top switch.

(One relay for UP, one relay for DOWN).

It's all shown in the schematics.

- Eric

Delta88Royale

oh, ok. So I think my confusion is that I am connecting the middle 2 ("8" to "7" and "3" to "4") as a single wire. Then those go to the up or down part of the motor and the lower parts of the circuits that are connecting the two together go directly to the motor. Is this right?

Delta88Royale

This is what I have deduced from the drawing and units. Please let me know it I am correct:


From the battery:
Off the positive terminal, splice a wire and run one to the toggle switch for the top. Second one to be spliced in later (leave long).


From toggle for top:
Run one long wire off the positive (up for the top) and the negative (down for the top) terminals


Down Relay (DPDT):
Splice off the negative wire twice, attach one to prong 6, 8 and 7
Ground prong 2 and connect prongs 4 and 3 to the down coil of the motor


UP relay:
Splice the positive wire twice and attach same as negative wire to 2, 4 and 3
Ground prong 6 and connect prongs 8 and 7 to the up coil of the motor


Both relays:
Connect down relay 1 to up relay 0, then connect the spliced like off the battery in between the two.
Connect down relay 0 to up relay 1 and then directly to the motor.


Motor:
Down the down and up coil and the armature



I just have an issue how the items on the back of the seat (bolted to the wall) are incorporated within the diagram

MDchanic

Background:
These are Double Pole, Double Throw relays, so each relay has the equivalent of 2 Single Pole, Double Throw switches inside it.
Each switch has a center terminal which can be connected to either one of two end terminals (but not both at once).
When the relay is Off, the center terminal is connected to one end terminal.
When the relay is On, the center terminal is connected to the other end terminal.
The center terminals of the switches are #4 and #8.
The end terminals are #3 and #7, and #2 and #6.
So one switch is terminals 2, 3, and 4, and the other is terminals 6, 7, and 8.

We do not need the "normally-closed" portions of the switches for this application (that is to say, we only need a DPST switch, and not a DPDT switch), so we leave those terminals (2 on each relay) not connected to anything.
We only need the "normally-open" portions, which are Off unless the relay is energized, and then turn On, until it is released.



Not exactly.
There is already a wire going from the battery to the top switch.
You just add a second wire, from the battery to behind the back seat, with an inline fuse right at the battery.



Not exactly, either.
There are already wires running from the top switch to the top relay behind the seat.
You connect these wires to your new relays, instead of to the old relay.



One wire from the top switch (I believe that the two switch wires are yellow and green, but I may not recall correctly) to the #1 terminal of one relay.
The other wire from the top switch to the #1 terminal of the other relay.
Connect both #0 relay terminals to ground.

This will make one relay pull in when you press Top UP, and the other relay pull in when you press Top Down.


Connect your new Hot wire directly from the battery to terminals #4 and #8 of BOTH relays (one wire to 4 terminals at the same time).
This provides power and makes both switches in each relay (4 switches total) Hot.


Now connect one of the Normally-Open switch terminals from each relay (doesn't matter which one) to the Motor armature wire (the heavy red wire).
You should have the heavy red wire connected to BOTH of the relays at the same time.

You can easily confirm which terminals are the Normally-Open terminals once you have the Top switch and the new power wire connected, by using a test light on each terminal. The terminals that make the light light up when you push the Top switch either Up or Down are the Normally-Open terminals. There will be 2 on each relay, for a total of 4.

So, you have connected one NO terminal from each relay to the armature wire. That leaves you with 1 free NO terminal on each relay (as well as 2 free NC terminals, which you are not using).

Connect the remaining NO terminal from one relay to one Field wire from the motor, and the other NO terminal to the other Field wire.

Test to see whether pressing the Top switch toward Up makes the top go Up or Down - if it goes the wrong way, reverse the two wires you just connected.

That's it. Easy.


I didn't understand this one.


The diagram shows:

• the car's battery (in the engine compartment)
• the fuse you install in the new Hot wire to the back seat (in the engine compartment)
• the Top switch (in the dashboard)
• the two relays you install (screwed to the bulkhead behind the back seat wherever you want), and
• the Top Motor (behind the back seat).

In the photograph I posted:



You can see:

• The Top Motor on the Left (the passenger side of the car, as we are looking toward the rear)
• The Top Motor wires sticking out just below the Top Motor:
  • The single, heavy red wire is the armature wire
  • The pair of smaller wires, in a single plug, are the two Field wires
    (Once released from their Packard 56 connector, the two Field wires can connect directly to the 1/4" spade terminals of the relays, if they're long enough)
• The two new relays (grey, side by side, with their terminals facing upward)
• A single auto parts store foglight relay (black, above the grey relays), that I used to get more power to my trunk release solenoid, COMPLETELY UNRELATED TO THE CONVERTIBLE TOP
• A terminal strip, to the Right of the foglight relay, used for making the connections of the new Hot wire easier (I also used it as a power feed for the trunk release and two amplifiers)
• The tip of the new Hot wire that I snaked back from the battery (at the very bottom, under the Top Motor)

Make sense?

- Eric

Delta88Royale

That honesty cleared so much up! Thank you so much for clarifying that. Sorry for all the questions but I was really trying to understand the diagram and then I went back to look at the pictures and saw those and gave up last night, lol. I'm going to order the relays in the next few days and see what I can get accomplished with this and report back.

Thank you so much!

MDchanic

You're welcome. Always glad to help.

- Eric

Tom442

Eric also contributed to this thread regarding a relay set-up for a rag top.

https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...tch-relay.html

Thanks again!

Tom
68 442
70 F85

MDchanic

You're welcome, Tom.

While I was at it, I just added a cleaner diagram to that thread, too.

- Eric

Kennybill

Thanks for the info Eric. I went over mine in 2005 and it's still working good. I'll keep this in mind for the "next" time something goes wrong. Ken

Delta88Royale

Eric,
It's been a while since I asked for all this info. I have finally pulled the trigger and ordered my DPDT relays and I will get them this week. I plan on trying to wire this in, myself, for the first time. The weather here in NorCal is too nice to not be able to drop my top. Wish me luck!!! Lol

MDchanic

Good luck!

Once you get started, it's easy.

- Eric

Delta88Royale

Thanks!! So all I need, in addition to the relays, is 8 gauge wire (I have the crimp ends for the wires) and a fuse to go from the battery (what size?)? Did you use the 8 gauge wire to connect one relay to the other or a different gauge? Once again, I'm HORRIBLE at wiring lol.

Thank you so much for your help

Delta88Royale

Here's to hoping it's not raining tomorrow and I can see if I did this right

MDchanic

Hey, I'm sorry I didn't respond - I've been working all week, and I lost track of this message.


To belatedly answer your questions:

• I would solder all of the connections instead of crimping them if at all possible - it's far better for current capacity and durability.
• I think I used a 40A fuse, but it may have been a 30A. Either one should work, and if the 30A blows, use a 40.
• If you look at my photos, I used a terminal strip to make the answer to this question easier.
  8ga wire is annoying to handle, so I ran the wire to a terminal strip and used that as my power supply.
  You use a stripped length of smaller solid-core wire, like 14ga or so, and run it like a zig-zag through a number of the screws on one side, connecting them all together, then you connect your power wire to one screw, and your supply wires to the other screws.
  In this case, you need 2 8ga wires from the terminal strip to the relays to supply the power to the switch terminals, but any other power wires can be smaller.
  I think you can basically see this in my photos.
  If you can't quite get the full 8ga wire everywhere you want it, don't worry about it - the heavy gauge is most important along long runs. For short hops, a smaller wire, like 10ga or 12ga, should be just fine.

Good luck!

- Eric

The Tin Man

Ok I now my eyes hurt......lol Thanks for the info it is a great thing to have....

Delta88Royale

I figured for the initial setup, I will use the crimp connectors to make sure that it is all setup the way it is suppose to be setup. Then when I know that it is, I will get a soldering gun to solder them all together. First I have to figure out where to buy the lead from the battery to the relay with the fuse attached in it, or if I have to make one and how to go about doing that. Once the top comes down.... and goes back up, I will be happy and make the connections a little more permanent

MDchanic

Fair enough.




Just get one of these.

Any auto parts store, WalMart, Amazon, RockAuto, etc.

- Eric

Delta88Royale

Eric,
If you're free I need a bit of help on the colored leads coming off the top motor and where to plug them in. More cables then just up down and power

Delta88Royale

I don't know what came from what and what attaches to what here lol

MDchanic

Okay, heavy red cloth-covered wire is the main armature power supply.
It gets power whenever the motor is activated, whether up or down.

The yellow and green wires are the field coil wires.
One for UP and one for DOWN.

In use, power is fed to the red wire and to ONE of the yellow or green wires, and the top goes up or down.

Which of the yellow and green is which, I have no idea - if the top goes the wrong way when you push the switch, just reverse the wires.

- Eric

Delta88Royale

You rock!!!

Delta88Royale

You rock!!!

MDchanic

Also note that supplying power to any one of the wires alone, or to the wrong two, or to all three, will burn out the motor.

I couldn't really see the plug you are holding, but I believe that it is carrying the two wires from the switch and one power wire.

The power wire was to feed the red cloth armature wire, when turned on by the relay.
One of the two wires from the top switch is ON with UP, the other with DOWN.

I believe that the orange and black is the hot wire, which you are essentially replacing with the 8ga wire you are installing.

- Eric

Delta88Royale

I'm getting a constant whine and I can hear the clicks of the tops but no movement

MDchanic

Probably bad cables.

Disconnect the cables from the actuators beside the passenger seat.

Try motor again. Look to see whether both cable cores are spinning.

Remove cables, check screw ends, cable casings, and cable cores.
Check female parts that receive cable cores to be sure they are not stripped.
The cables should fit into their respective fittings tightly and firmly, and the cores should be solidly inserted and feel solid.

This should at least let you determine whether there is any chance of stripped gears on either end, and that the motor is turning.

When I fixed mine, the first thing I found was that someone had taken the motor apart before, and had left a wave washer inside of it, which was jamming the rotor.

Worked much better with that out.

- Eric

Delta88Royale

Before I get to doing all that, the motor shouldn't be whining as soon as I plug it in to the battery and it is. Is this because it is directly connected to the battery?

MDchanic

The motor should only be connected to the battery when it is being asked to move the top.
At all other times, no wire from the motor is connected to the battery.

When you ask it to put the top UP, the Red and Green are connected to the battery.

When you ask it to put the top down, the Red and Yellow are connected to the battery.

(I may have gotten the Green and Yellow wires backwards.)

The relay setup described above will only connect the motor to the battery when you are pressing the TOP switch to either UP or DOWN.

For testing purposes, it is fine to connect a length of sturdy wire to both the Red and Green (or Yellow) wires and then to the battery - I did this when first testing my motor. I took a piece of 10ga wire, soldered another piece to it about 8 inches up, to make a "Y", soldered spade terminals onto the ends to connect with the motor terminals, grounded the motor, and then touched the end of the 10ga wire to the battery (+) terminal.

- Eric

Delta88Royale

Ok, then I must have wired something wrong in the relays bc I have the 10gauge coming from the battery, with the 30amp in-line fuse, split and going to the toggle and then the two relays. On the other end I have that going to the motor of the top. Yet when I plus them into the battery, it whines constantly. It almost sounds like the door open whine

MDchanic

Don't plug it in anymore.

Better post a few pictures of the relays, showing exactly what's connected to what.

We'll figure it out.

- Eric

Delta88Royale

Here's what I did. I tried to mirror your diagram you drew for me

Delta88Royale

Here's another pic

Delta88Royale

And another