orange442

I posted this a little over 2 years ago and thought I should bump it back up to go along with this post from yesterday Dec. 16
https://classicoldsmobile.com/forums...sed-parts.html

I bought a set of grills from John Theo, Newmarket, Ontario, Canada, AKA Rallye350 on this sight, that were supposed to be NOS and I got some blurred, long distance pics with only closeups of the part #' but none of the damage, warpage, shoddy repairs, etc! He keeps saying I should have looked at the pics closer but it would be obvious to a blind person that these were not NOS and since somebody dumped these on him as NOS, then he seems to have no problem dumping them on me, he basically said that in his email to me! He took the pics on original boxes so being the trusting guy I am and believing another Oldsmobile would not screw me, I believed them to be NOS! These grills are used and have have a lot of damage that was repaired badly and you can see the circular indentations where they were mounted, something I could not see in his pics! Now, he will not refund my money and wants me to trust him and send the grills back to him and then he says he will send my money back to me! How can I believe he would send my money back after this! I already trusted this guy once with a lot of money and now he is not trusting me and he is the one that misrepresented what he had! You be the judge and see if you or anyone else you know would ever trust sending their hard earned money to this guy for anything that he has!

Jaybird

Hmmmm. This is not good!

Jaybird

orange442

No, it is not but I guess this is a chance you take buying from a complete stranger but trusting him to be a real Oldsmobile guy and not just somebody trying get rid of something that somebody else dumped on them. He advertised and sold these to me as NOS but he knew thay were not, it did not matter that he sent me pics and did not look at them closely, I trusted him, big lesson learned! I know I will probably have to eat these grills and take the $643 dollar loss because he says he will not pay me my money back until I send the grills back to him but how can I trust him now after he did this? Would you trust him after all this? I could then be out my money and the grills and the additional cost for me to ship them back to him! Like I said, lesson learned, and it will be a long time before I trust someone I do not know and that I can't talk to and see the part with my own eyes before I buy it! I will take and post more pics so everybody can see what this guy is selling!

Red Delta

Holy crap. That's some shoddy pieces.

J-(Chicago)

This is why I encourage people to use our for sale and parts wanted forums. Posting good pics for the whole world to see decreases the junk flow through the site.
When I have bad parts, I make sure to let folks know they're not that great.

Willidog

Do you still have the pics he sent you?

442much

Definately not NOS. He should refund your money if they were represented as NOS. Maybe people should have to post pics for all to see when selling an item classified as NOS.

MDchanic

Definitely not cool.

It almost doesn't matter how lousy they look - if they've ever been mounted on a car, even if they're in great shape, they're not NOS anymore. Of course, these look terrible, too.

There is no question that the seller, having misrepresented the parts, should immediately refund the money. Frankly, he should let you keep the parts - they're garbage anyway.

- Eric

Lady72nRob71

And I emphasize, GOOD pics. Closeups - details. The more the parts cost the more willing the seller should take and send GOOD pics - of THE ACTUAL PART. As a buyer, we should demand them. True, I trust people a lot, too.
I was burned on flea bay on that "not actual part" thing. So no more "stock" or representation photos" for me for costly items.

Rule of thumb for me, if the seller will not send good pics of the actual items, then run away, run away!!

Sorry to hear about your misfortune. Can you PM me his user ID?

Could be counted as mail fraud but not sure how Canada handles that.

GAOldsman

Axeni

Well take it to the Lawyers. If he took pics on original boxes etc and guaranteed them to NOS and they werent you need to take him to small claims court.

442scotty

I had that happen to me with a guy from the Boston area...purchased some NOS perfect 65 cutlass parts which were anything but as advertised. He told me to send them back and I really was worried about that... but I did and got a full refund...cost me shipping both ways and I learned a lot...I say send them back and see if he pays up...but keep documentation...

scubastever

is this the guy?

(deleted for fear of infractination) lol

RetroRanger

if you payed by paypal file a complaint w PP

I almost always use PP w my credit card for online transactions, if / when I run into a problem (hasnt happened yet )(knocks on wood) you have two recourses PP and your CC

as Rob stated good pics especially for a higher dollar amount I have walked from the my digital camara doesnt work line more than once

Axeni

That is a very nice neighborhood. I would assume it is a mistake and not a scam hopefully. Most people can afford good cameras now days and most higher end smartphones have decent quality pics.

atkinsom

I know this fellow. He lives 2 minutes from me on the other side of another sub division. I've met him a couple of times and he seemed ok. I would send him back the parts as I'm sure he will refund your money over the issue. The laws in Canada for mail fraud or any sort of fraud are quite serious so I doubt that anything will happen. Personally I'm quite surprised. I'm dealing with a sale on a couple of parts with a fellow classic olds member and he's been aces through the whole process with awesome pics and details.

442much

Federal offence. Would be nice to hear rallye350's version before we gather the wood, hammers and nails. Three sides to every story you know...your side, my side and the absolute truth; not that I'm doubting Orange442's side, I'd just to hear the other side, if there is one.

MDchanic

Even without hearing it, copies of e-mails saying "NOS" and photos of grille pieces on top of GM boxes would leave little room for alternative narratives.

- Eric

Lady72nRob71

"OOPS! I sent the wrong ones!"
Yea, that's my story and I'm sticking to it!!

MDchanic

Then his response would have been, "I'll send the right ones right away - just re-box your and send 'em back - I'll PayPal you the shipping right now."

- Eric

Junkman

Since you live so close, why don't you agree to have the buyer send them to you, and then you can drop them at the sellers home, and collect the money and send it back to the buyer. This will lessen the chance that the seller will get the parts back, and not refund the purchase price. When things like this happen, it hurts the entire hobby, and I believe that the seller should be responsible for the shipping costs both ways.
I have never been burned for something like this, and I have learned from others having problems, not to trust a unknown seller. What I usually do is try to find someone that is close to the seller, and have them pick up the parts and pay for them, and then have them send them to me. I will compensate the "intermediary" for his help, because to me, I rather pay a little more, than to pay a lot to someone that I don't know and get burned for the whole amount. Most people are honest, but in these hard economic times, some are getting desperate, and will resort to doing something that they wouldn't have ever considered before they got into a financial bind.

atkinsom

Yes I'll be open to that scenario if both you and the seller agree to this setup...just PM me if that is an option you'd like to pursue orange

70Post

Given the situation stated that's about as bad as it gets. If they are described as NOS then you shouldn't need pics of every nook and cranny of the damn part to make your final determination. A good "going over" by the seller to look for any bad defects with a few good pics is reasonable to expect with detailed pics of any defects the seller sees in the NOS parts.

NOS parts can have quite a bit of variation in quality but the grilles pic'd are obviously used (note in the one pic of the frontside showing the paint sunk down into those little crevices in the plastic surface---this is where the paint on used grilles has worn off and the sun has started to dry out and wear away the plastic....so DEFINITELY NOT REPAIRED NOS PIECES).

This sucks pretty bad.....makes my recent experience on this board with a "drive by" description by the seller on a part purchased look like child's play. I guess we are scraping the bottom of the barrel on a lot of these parts(and a lot of these people as well) now as I keep seeing more and more crappy and misdescribed parts purchased via pics and based on the seller's so-called "description".

I hope you get a refund. Based on your description of the situation and the pics this one has got to rank in the Top 10 of "Flakes, Shakes and Snakes---My Experiences with Internet Ripoffs, Scams and Outright Liars and Thieves".

Edit: Why would he need them back first?....THEY ARE CRAP. Does he want them so he can sell them again to some unsuspecting/trusting buyer?? Since it appears the sellers ability is solely limited to pressing the button on a spray can why the big fuss over "returning them first".

It's not like you are going to turn around and ring the big cash register and sell these pieces of crap...thus making out like a bandit with a full refund PLUS what??....$20 for a pair of crapped out broken grilles. Rallye350 appears to have lost his grip on reality.

442much

Orange, you need the grilles. The ones pictured are not NOS but the price you paid were for NOS. Perhaps the seller would refund...say $300. Would you be happy with that? Maybe before shipping them back and you start looking again, you guys could come to a deal. You agree on a price for what you have and he sends you the difference. You get your grilles for a reasonable price and he saves on shipping and reputation. Win-win. Is that an option?

442much

It's still always good to hear the other side. What if the seller came back and said "I never said they were perfect I said they were NOS." or "I never said they were NOS." Emails are not proof as they can be altered by both parties, so they are not really evidence.

If I was the seller I'd want to make this right. Obviously Orange442 didn't get what he expected, that we know for sure. What we don't know is the seller's side of what happened. I'm not taking sides, I just think we should hear both sides before we condem someone as a cheat or a fraud in front of everyone.

My idea of NOS is a part that is in excellent condition and has never been on a car. It might be shelf worn and not perfect, but is in overall excellent shape. Another persons view may differ from mine. "It's NOS" (it was never on a car or out of the box and it was run over by the fork lift at the parts depot but all the pieces are still there.) Obviously that's an extreme example, but technically it is NOS.

66-3X2 442

Threaten him with this,it has worked for me. Just email him a link and I think he will come around to your line of thinking.

http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx

atkinsom

No offense my friend but the long arm of the FBI has no jurisdiction in Canada so sending that to a Canadian really won't instill any sort of fear...hell I bet 1/4 of our population still steals satellite signals in one way or another without any fear whatsoever of getting caught LOL!

Anyway perhaps 442much has a point. We can't grill the guy until we know what's up on the other side although those grilles look pretty nasty I must say.

w-30dreamin

Sorry to read about your problem.

Hopefully the seller will do the right thing.

Axeni

Any response yet from the seller?

Rickman48

In another forum I belonged to, if the merchandise was advertised there, the moderators would get involved to settle the dispute.
If no agreement was reached, and the seller did the 'ripping', the seller was banned from the forum, until settled!
Right way to go, IMO.

hamm36

Posting of someones personal information is an Infraction on CO.com note below. Remove this information before you get Infracted

0 point(s) total Post / Reason Date / Posted By Points / Expires N/A
Reason: Posting personal information
December 30th, 2010 08:28 PM by Omicron 0 / Never

70Post

Are you joking?? $343 for a pair of broken up, sun beat, half-assed glued/bondo'd together grilles???

I've done A LOT of repairs on used grilles and if the pics he posted are indicative of the overall condition of the grilles then they are worth a fraction of what you suggest as the "compromise" price. Once they get the surface deterioration/crevices in them from sun exposure they become nightmare to ever get looking right again. These are '70 Cutlass S grilles and they are made up of 84 individual rectangles/eggcrates ON EACH GRILLE. That means you potentially have a massive number of surfaces to deal in terms of getting rid of any of the surface deterioration. Try priming and sanding 50+ areas on each grille to fill in the crevices and then tell me what these are worth.

On top of that the large flat borders below the grille rectangles are usually hammered worse.

Yeah, yeah....."mind your own business", etc. Why compromise with scammers?? Nobody would have shipped those grilles without ill intent if they were represented as NOS, "near NOS", or some other BS description.

Full refund including return shipping costs is what is right in this case if the facts are as represented.

gearheads78

I'm with Patton on this one. Those belong on a beater or in the trash.

442much

Read the rest of the post. I wasn't saying it should be $300, because I don't know how hard they are to find or how bad Orange wants them. It was an example. I also said Maybe before shipping them back and you start looking again, you guys could come to a deal. You agree on a price for what you have and he sends you the difference. You get your grilles for a reasonable price and he saves on shipping and reputation.

Maybe they are only worth $100, or $50 I don't know. The point is, if Orange was looking for a long time (I don't know how long he's been looking) and these are better than what he has now (I don't know what shape the one's he has now are in) PERHAPS he could keep them for a reasonal price (TBD by buyer and seller) and the seller refund the difference. I don't know what that reasonable is. Just a thought. Of course if he doesn't want them at all because they were misrepresented, then a full refund is in order.

Allan R

This whole thing is unfortunate to have happened; especially between members of C.O. This is just an observation so dont shoot the messenger. I don't know a lot about 1970 442/Cutlass grilles. But I do know they are repopped for around 280.00 a pair. If orange can get his money inc shipping back, are the repops a good option? I bought a set of repop 442 grilles for my 72. They have minor fitment issues but line up nicely and it will probably be a couple hours installation to make sure everything is perfect.

oldzzy

They don't repop the Cutlass S grilles

70Post

Understood Ken...thanks.

To me it's compromising with a thief (if the facts are as stated)......do that and the thief continues with the thieving. "Reputation"???---apparently not a concern or worry with this seller and he's already defined it if the facts are as stated.

Chad wanted NOS grilles for a nice project....these are parts/donor grilles or grilles that would take HOURS of work to rehab (at best).

Sorry about the rant but I've had a rash of pretty bad parts here lately that were supposedly "restored", rehabbed, etc before they were sold to customers or put on customer cars....it seems to almost be "the norm" these days.

59-59-59

So you thought these were NOS? I would try to get my money back and invest in a pair of glasses or contact lenses

oldzy

mmm popcorn

yeahbuddy

If you paid with PayPal you know they guarantee your money up to 90 days if you open a dispute? I always pay with PayPal because they act as security if everything goes wrong on either end.