Orange peel still evident!!
April 13th, 2011, 12:22 PM
#1
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Location: new zealand
Posts: 537
Orange peel still evident!!
As a novice I am relatively happy with the result. I have never used a spray gun before and the compressor pressure started jumping all over the show when a line feed from the compressor to the gauges developed a crack/leak .I couldn`t figure out what was happening and spent 1/2 my time at practice boards trying to achieve the " cigar shape" and readjusting the gun and gauges. !!! The job could be better as after sanding the clear there are some orange peel spots .Then again it`s surprisingly not too bad.How would I eliminate this orange peel ?? rough up the clear and overshoot with 3 more of clear???
thanks
mike
thanks
mike
April 13th, 2011, 08:00 PM
#2
You could do that. if u have alot of clear on it now u can still sand and buff it out. but if u think u will cut threw the clear then yeah just rough it up and shoot some more clear and cut and buff it again.
April 13th, 2011, 08:51 PM
#4
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Vacaville, CA
Posts: 47
Ok this is a post I can actually be the offer-er of information as I am a custom painter by trade.
So Orange peel refers to the appearance of an uneven texture in the finish. It is usually most appart when you look down the length of the vehicle and the light reflecting shows the undulations in the finish.
But where is the orange peel?
improperly laid down textured surface can happen at any of the stages of automotive paint and will show up through the stack.
Let me sum up the typical stack so we are on the same page.
1) Epoxy (direct to metal) primer
2) Body work
3) Primer surfacer
4) Primer sealer
5) Base coat
6) (candy coat or art work if present)
7) Clear coats
These coats get finer as they go through the stack (for the most part), and require finer grit sand paper on each layer to assure good adhesion while not showing sand scratches on the subsequent layer.
So, a textured (3
rimer surfacer coat) without sanding the texture out of it with the appropriate grit sand paper will make the (4rimer sealer coat) look just as textured as the layer below it. (5: Base coat) layered on top of textured primer sealer coat will make the base coat textured. Several coats of clear sanded smooth on top of a textured mess like I just describe will only act as a smooth piece of glass to show off the texture underneath.
The best case senario is where every coat went on as it should without apparent texture and then your final clear coats were applied with texture.
That is something you can do about.
If that is the case the next question you need to answer is: How much clear did you apply and how deep is your texture?
If you applied 2 medium coats of a decent clear coat and your texture is not horrendous then you should be able to safely sand the texture out and buff and polish the clear back to a show shine.
disclaimer: this process can be full of painful mistakes. how to do it is not complicated, but learning when to stop, and how much speed and pressure only comes with practice. You could nail it the first time so don't let me scare you off, but know that a professional detailing shop can cut and buff car clear coats and so that is an option.
1) soak some wet and dry 2000 grit sand paper in water (never rougher than 2000... at least for this example).
2) after 10 min of soaking bring the tub of water and sand paper to the part of the car you are going to work on. (like the trunk).
3) keeping the surface wet by dipping back in the water frequently use the palm of your hand or a hard foam sanding block to sand the surface in one common direction (I like to move with the direction of the car)
4) if at all possible avoid going closer to any paint edge than 2 inches. When you are buffing later if it very tricky buffing on a body edge and not burning though. Consider a sharp rise in the body like raised corners of a hood like an edge.
5) using a clean towel periodically dry the area you have been sanding to examine your work. You are looking for a smooth matte finish. at first the deeper parts of your textured orange peel will stay glossy and your sanding has not got to that yet. The idea here is to sand an area until you have sanded it flat (no more texture). There needs to be enough clear on there to do this.
6) the next step I do is optional, but it helps cut your buffing time alot. and buffing time is the dangerous time so I am all for cutting it way down. 3M makes a hook and loop pad called Trisac 3000 (yup, its 3000 grit). I has to be used in a low throw orbital DA like the dyna braid and it needs a foam backed interface pad. You go over your 2000 grit sanded area with a wet application of the trisac 3000 and it gets surface so close that it take vey little buffing. The special DA, foam interface pad, and trisac pads are very expensive so it probably doesn't make sense to get it for one project but I just felt like giving you the whole truth.
7) next your going to need a variable speed buffer like the dewalt. This is the large 2 handled powerful tool, not a waxer/buffer thing people buy to wax there car. You will need an interface pad for this and a white foam 3M buffing pad. The white is aggressive and is your first step. Using hand applicator rub some 3M rubbing compound onto a 2x2foot area your going to work. set your buffer to 1800 rpm to start. once you touch the buffer to the surface you need to keep it moving around the 2 foot area. kept in one spot it will generate too much heat and burn right through your finish. Once you've work an area for 10-20 seconds stop and wipe your results with a microfiber cloth.
8) using a light from an angle look at your results. If you see a hazy finish still you need to reapply more compound and do another 20 second bout. If that buffer touches a body edge or anything raised higher than the surface its working, it is going to super heat it and do what damage it does.
9) once the area is looking good, repeat the process around the whole section you are working until satisfied.
10) from there, switch the white buffing pad to the dark grey foam pad, and switch from 3m rubbing compound to 3m polish or machine glaze. Work this step like you did in the previous step to bring the shine to a show finish. with a little confidence you can apply this step a little harder and hotter than the previous step... but not too much. an ounce of caution is worth a lot here.
As you can see the process is a little involved but it can be done.
Maybe I could make a you tube video on how to do it if you really thought you wanted to take the plunge for the equipment and try it?
-Dan
So Orange peel refers to the appearance of an uneven texture in the finish. It is usually most appart when you look down the length of the vehicle and the light reflecting shows the undulations in the finish.
But where is the orange peel?
improperly laid down textured surface can happen at any of the stages of automotive paint and will show up through the stack.
Let me sum up the typical stack so we are on the same page.
1) Epoxy (direct to metal) primer
2) Body work
3) Primer surfacer
4) Primer sealer
5) Base coat
6) (candy coat or art work if present)
7) Clear coats
These coats get finer as they go through the stack (for the most part), and require finer grit sand paper on each layer to assure good adhesion while not showing sand scratches on the subsequent layer.
So, a textured (3
rimer surfacer coat) without sanding the texture out of it with the appropriate grit sand paper will make the (4rimer sealer coat) look just as textured as the layer below it. (5: Base coat) layered on top of textured primer sealer coat will make the base coat textured. Several coats of clear sanded smooth on top of a textured mess like I just describe will only act as a smooth piece of glass to show off the texture underneath.The best case senario is where every coat went on as it should without apparent texture and then your final clear coats were applied with texture.
That is something you can do about.
If that is the case the next question you need to answer is: How much clear did you apply and how deep is your texture?
If you applied 2 medium coats of a decent clear coat and your texture is not horrendous then you should be able to safely sand the texture out and buff and polish the clear back to a show shine.
disclaimer: this process can be full of painful mistakes. how to do it is not complicated, but learning when to stop, and how much speed and pressure only comes with practice. You could nail it the first time so don't let me scare you off, but know that a professional detailing shop can cut and buff car clear coats and so that is an option.
1) soak some wet and dry 2000 grit sand paper in water (never rougher than 2000... at least for this example).
2) after 10 min of soaking bring the tub of water and sand paper to the part of the car you are going to work on. (like the trunk).
3) keeping the surface wet by dipping back in the water frequently use the palm of your hand or a hard foam sanding block to sand the surface in one common direction (I like to move with the direction of the car)
4) if at all possible avoid going closer to any paint edge than 2 inches. When you are buffing later if it very tricky buffing on a body edge and not burning though. Consider a sharp rise in the body like raised corners of a hood like an edge.
5) using a clean towel periodically dry the area you have been sanding to examine your work. You are looking for a smooth matte finish. at first the deeper parts of your textured orange peel will stay glossy and your sanding has not got to that yet. The idea here is to sand an area until you have sanded it flat (no more texture). There needs to be enough clear on there to do this.
6) the next step I do is optional, but it helps cut your buffing time alot. and buffing time is the dangerous time so I am all for cutting it way down. 3M makes a hook and loop pad called Trisac 3000 (yup, its 3000 grit). I has to be used in a low throw orbital DA like the dyna braid and it needs a foam backed interface pad. You go over your 2000 grit sanded area with a wet application of the trisac 3000 and it gets surface so close that it take vey little buffing. The special DA, foam interface pad, and trisac pads are very expensive so it probably doesn't make sense to get it for one project but I just felt like giving you the whole truth.
7) next your going to need a variable speed buffer like the dewalt. This is the large 2 handled powerful tool, not a waxer/buffer thing people buy to wax there car. You will need an interface pad for this and a white foam 3M buffing pad. The white is aggressive and is your first step. Using hand applicator rub some 3M rubbing compound onto a 2x2foot area your going to work. set your buffer to 1800 rpm to start. once you touch the buffer to the surface you need to keep it moving around the 2 foot area. kept in one spot it will generate too much heat and burn right through your finish. Once you've work an area for 10-20 seconds stop and wipe your results with a microfiber cloth.
8) using a light from an angle look at your results. If you see a hazy finish still you need to reapply more compound and do another 20 second bout. If that buffer touches a body edge or anything raised higher than the surface its working, it is going to super heat it and do what damage it does.
9) once the area is looking good, repeat the process around the whole section you are working until satisfied.
10) from there, switch the white buffing pad to the dark grey foam pad, and switch from 3m rubbing compound to 3m polish or machine glaze. Work this step like you did in the previous step to bring the shine to a show finish. with a little confidence you can apply this step a little harder and hotter than the previous step... but not too much. an ounce of caution is worth a lot here.
As you can see the process is a little involved but it can be done.
Maybe I could make a you tube video on how to do it if you really thought you wanted to take the plunge for the equipment and try it?
-Dan
April 14th, 2011, 01:49 AM
#5
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: new zealand
Posts: 537
thanks guys .
2 posts suggest that the unevenness occurs at many possible layers not only the clear/topcoat --makes sense .I will try and upload some pics tomorrow.I have done a fair bit of sanding of the 3 or 4 coats of clear .I am down to a 2000 grit and then "polished " with 3m perfect 11 . It went from roadside possum flat to a nice shine. However,When I look along the car, in a certain light/angle, I can see little pin holes --not all the car .
This being the case , I would like to think another 2 coats of clear may assist this issue .???
At one point , I noticed the color ---very pale in the foam under the sandpaper.I stopped and polished it ---seemed to come up shiny BUT this showing of color would indicate to me that I am close , in parts at least, to the base. I therefore don`t wish to sand any deeper.
What do you think rough it with 1000 grit and add a coat or two of clear??
thankyou
mike
2 posts suggest that the unevenness occurs at many possible layers not only the clear/topcoat --makes sense .I will try and upload some pics tomorrow.I have done a fair bit of sanding of the 3 or 4 coats of clear .I am down to a 2000 grit and then "polished " with 3m perfect 11 . It went from roadside possum flat to a nice shine. However,When I look along the car, in a certain light/angle, I can see little pin holes --not all the car .
This being the case , I would like to think another 2 coats of clear may assist this issue .???
At one point , I noticed the color ---very pale in the foam under the sandpaper.I stopped and polished it ---seemed to come up shiny BUT this showing of color would indicate to me that I am close , in parts at least, to the base. I therefore don`t wish to sand any deeper.
What do you think rough it with 1000 grit and add a coat or two of clear??
thankyou
mike
Last edited by geckonz08; April 14th, 2011 at 01:51 AM. Reason: not finished
April 14th, 2011, 07:41 AM
#6
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Vacaville, CA
Posts: 47
1000 grit and then re-clear is always a good option. I didn't mention it to you because I didn't know if you had the option to do it again.
If you go that route I would recommend laying out 2 coats with minimum reducer in it so it builds up (allowing 15 min between first and 2nd coat), then right after the 2nd coat mix the amount of clear you have left in your gun with 50% again as much reducer. Lay a very quick thin coat of this super hot mix on top of everything. This is called a flow coat. I will melt most if not all your clear coat orange peel away from the first 2 coats while maintaining your build thickness.
If you see color in the foam when sanding your not close, your through. If its a solid color underneath that might be ok, more clear would fix the problem. If its a color with a metallic flake underneath breaking through usually spells disaster because the flake gets dulled when its hit with sand paper so you have to re-base coat that area before re-clearing.
If your going to re-clear make sure you wax and grease remover ALOT. the rubbing compounds leave oils behind that will fish eye your clear coat if they are not removed. I would wash thoroughly with water and soap.. a couple of times. Then wax and grease remover.
Also, to get adhesion on the paint edges you may not have wanted to sand with the paper use a red or grey scotch bright pad. Red if your colors are lighter and grey if you have a dark to black color. The scotch bright pads tend to scuff material without removing material as sand paper does. It won't work for flattening areas though. Sometimes red scotch bright is too coarse of scratches to hide over black paint so grey is safer.
If your orange peel is in the base coat color re-clearing won't fix that. Nothing but sanding the clear flat and re-base coat, re-clear coat will fix that.
Either way you want clear back over the areas you are breaking through. Modern base coat/clear coat paints put all the UV protection in the clear coat. It may look shiny everywhere after you buff it but if you don't have clear over everything the break through areas are going to fade out or chip much more quickly. Heaven forbid you have red paint it would fade super quick without clear UV protection.
For the record that is one of the differences in expensive versus cheap clear coat. The unseen UV protectors.
Good luck and feel free to ask questions.
-Dan
If you go that route I would recommend laying out 2 coats with minimum reducer in it so it builds up (allowing 15 min between first and 2nd coat), then right after the 2nd coat mix the amount of clear you have left in your gun with 50% again as much reducer. Lay a very quick thin coat of this super hot mix on top of everything. This is called a flow coat. I will melt most if not all your clear coat orange peel away from the first 2 coats while maintaining your build thickness.
If you see color in the foam when sanding your not close, your through. If its a solid color underneath that might be ok, more clear would fix the problem. If its a color with a metallic flake underneath breaking through usually spells disaster because the flake gets dulled when its hit with sand paper so you have to re-base coat that area before re-clearing.
If your going to re-clear make sure you wax and grease remover ALOT. the rubbing compounds leave oils behind that will fish eye your clear coat if they are not removed. I would wash thoroughly with water and soap.. a couple of times. Then wax and grease remover.
Also, to get adhesion on the paint edges you may not have wanted to sand with the paper use a red or grey scotch bright pad. Red if your colors are lighter and grey if you have a dark to black color. The scotch bright pads tend to scuff material without removing material as sand paper does. It won't work for flattening areas though. Sometimes red scotch bright is too coarse of scratches to hide over black paint so grey is safer.
If your orange peel is in the base coat color re-clearing won't fix that. Nothing but sanding the clear flat and re-base coat, re-clear coat will fix that.
Either way you want clear back over the areas you are breaking through. Modern base coat/clear coat paints put all the UV protection in the clear coat. It may look shiny everywhere after you buff it but if you don't have clear over everything the break through areas are going to fade out or chip much more quickly. Heaven forbid you have red paint it would fade super quick without clear UV protection.
For the record that is one of the differences in expensive versus cheap clear coat. The unseen UV protectors.
Good luck and feel free to ask questions.
-Dan
April 14th, 2011, 08:24 AM
#8
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Vacaville, CA
Posts: 47
Thanks man.
The last several years I got into doing airbrush art mostly on motorcycles. I have a website where you can check out some of that work.
www.moonshinepaint.com
I am not going to do a bunch of art on my 69 Cutlass though, I like a more classic look there. I am going to paint my car in 3 weeks. I will shoot video and pictures of the whole process and post it in case it would be helpful to anyone.
Anytime I can help I am more than happy to, you all help me a ton with all my many mechanical and other misc questions getting my cutlass running great.
Thanks,
Dan
The last several years I got into doing airbrush art mostly on motorcycles. I have a website where you can check out some of that work.
www.moonshinepaint.com
I am not going to do a bunch of art on my 69 Cutlass though, I like a more classic look there. I am going to paint my car in 3 weeks. I will shoot video and pictures of the whole process and post it in case it would be helpful to anyone.
Anytime I can help I am more than happy to, you all help me a ton with all my many mechanical and other misc questions getting my cutlass running great.
Thanks,
Dan
April 14th, 2011, 12:26 PM
#11
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 99
Last edited by Axeni; August 12th, 2011 at 04:18 PM.
April 14th, 2011, 02:07 PM
#13
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: new zealand
Posts: 537
Thanks man.
The last several years I got into doing airbrush art mostly on motorcycles. I have a website where you can check out some of that work.
www.moonshinepaint.com
I am not going to do a bunch of art on my 69 Cutlass though, I like a more classic look there. I am going to paint my car in 3 weeks. I will shoot video and pictures of the whole process and post it in case it would be helpful to anyone.
Anytime I can help I am more than happy to, you all help me a ton with all my many mechanical and other misc questions getting my cutlass running great.
Thanks,
Dan
The last several years I got into doing airbrush art mostly on motorcycles. I have a website where you can check out some of that work.
www.moonshinepaint.com
I am not going to do a bunch of art on my 69 Cutlass though, I like a more classic look there. I am going to paint my car in 3 weeks. I will shoot video and pictures of the whole process and post it in case it would be helpful to anyone.
Anytime I can help I am more than happy to, you all help me a ton with all my many mechanical and other misc questions getting my cutlass running great.
Thanks,
Dan
Thanks for your efforts explaining issues here.
mike
April 14th, 2011, 10:15 PM
#14
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: new zealand
Posts: 537
Doesn`t show the peel from the camera distance and the day is overcast.
yeah yeah --it`s a cadillac but it does have the olds 307 and will get the 66 toro motor.
Dan I will give the extra clear a go.
tx mike
yeah yeah --it`s a cadillac but it does have the olds 307 and will get the 66 toro motor.
Dan I will give the extra clear a go.
tx mike
April 18th, 2011, 10:05 PM
#15
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: new zealand
Posts: 537
1000 grit and then re-clear is always a good option. I didn't mention it to you because I didn't know if you had the option to do it again.
If you go that route I would recommend laying out 2 coats with minimum reducer in it so it builds up (allowing 15 min between first and 2nd coat), then right after the 2nd coat mix the amount of clear you have left in your gun with 50% again as much reducer. Lay a very quick thin coat of this super hot mix on top of everything. This is called a flow coat. I will melt most if not all your clear coat orange peel away from the first 2 coats while maintaining your build thickness.
.
Good luck and feel free to ask questions.
-Dan
If you go that route I would recommend laying out 2 coats with minimum reducer in it so it builds up (allowing 15 min between first and 2nd coat), then right after the 2nd coat mix the amount of clear you have left in your gun with 50% again as much reducer. Lay a very quick thin coat of this super hot mix on top of everything. This is called a flow coat. I will melt most if not all your clear coat orange peel away from the first 2 coats while maintaining your build thickness.
.
Good luck and feel free to ask questions.
-Dan
Your method worked a treat.
Smooth n shiny
mike
April 19th, 2011, 02:40 PM
#17
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: new zealand
Posts: 537
Thanks again
mike
April 19th, 2011, 06:15 PM
#18
Tony
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 450
Thanks man.
The last several years I got into doing airbrush art mostly on motorcycles. I have a website where you can check out some of that work.
www.moonshinepaint.com
I am not going to do a bunch of art on my 69 Cutlass though, I like a more classic look there. I am going to paint my car in 3 weeks. I will shoot video and pictures of the whole process and post it in case it would be helpful to anyone.
Anytime I can help I am more than happy to, you all help me a ton with all my many mechanical and other misc questions getting my cutlass running great.
Good looking work Dan thanks for the info thats the stuff we can all apreciate
Thanks,
Dan
The last several years I got into doing airbrush art mostly on motorcycles. I have a website where you can check out some of that work.
www.moonshinepaint.com
I am not going to do a bunch of art on my 69 Cutlass though, I like a more classic look there. I am going to paint my car in 3 weeks. I will shoot video and pictures of the whole process and post it in case it would be helpful to anyone.
Anytime I can help I am more than happy to, you all help me a ton with all my many mechanical and other misc questions getting my cutlass running great.
Good looking work Dan thanks for the info thats the stuff we can all apreciate
Thanks,
Dan
September 9th, 2011, 09:45 PM
#20
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Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 177
My Paint Problem
Good advice in this thread... Here is my problem.
I am a novice painter, and in 2007, I repainted my 75 Caprice Convertable with the help of a technical college. I striped and sanded down to bare metal in most places, finished the body work, sealed, primered, base coat, then clear. The clear on the top surfaces came out real good. However, on the vertical surfaces, it is much more dull and orange peely. i have told by some that in trying to prevent the clear from running, I went to fast and put too little clear on. So my question...
After all this time, can I add more coats of clear? If so, how do I prepare and do it. I would prefer not to reshoot the whole car, but i will if need be.
Thanks.
I am a novice painter, and in 2007, I repainted my 75 Caprice Convertable with the help of a technical college. I striped and sanded down to bare metal in most places, finished the body work, sealed, primered, base coat, then clear. The clear on the top surfaces came out real good. However, on the vertical surfaces, it is much more dull and orange peely. i have told by some that in trying to prevent the clear from running, I went to fast and put too little clear on. So my question...
After all this time, can I add more coats of clear? If so, how do I prepare and do it. I would prefer not to reshoot the whole car, but i will if need be.
Thanks.
September 10th, 2011, 05:39 AM
#21
Tony
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 450
Good advice in this thread... Here is my problem.
I am a novice painter, and in 2007, I repainted my 75 Caprice Convertable with the help of a technical college. I striped and sanded down to bare metal in most places, finished the body work, sealed, primered, base coat, then clear. The clear on the top surfaces came out real good. However, on the vertical surfaces, it is much more dull and orange peely. i have told by some that in trying to prevent the clear from running, I went to fast and put too little clear on. So my question...
After all this time, can I add more coats of clear? If so, how do I prepare and do it. I would prefer not to reshoot the whole car, but i will if need be.
Thanks.
I am a novice painter, and in 2007, I repainted my 75 Caprice Convertable with the help of a technical college. I striped and sanded down to bare metal in most places, finished the body work, sealed, primered, base coat, then clear. The clear on the top surfaces came out real good. However, on the vertical surfaces, it is much more dull and orange peely. i have told by some that in trying to prevent the clear from running, I went to fast and put too little clear on. So my question...
After all this time, can I add more coats of clear? If so, how do I prepare and do it. I would prefer not to reshoot the whole car, but i will if need be.
Thanks.
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