young olds

Ive been driving a clapped out 75 vw dasher, water cooled/longitudinal engine. I got it running at the guys house i bought it from after sitting for about 10 years. it ran great so i drove it as it was for a while, and its my cheap beater, after a bit I put wires on and gapped the existing plugs. the other day i let my dad drive it and he said it was pinging, so i got in there and did the timing and figured i might as well check the dwell and adjust the carb. now it runs like crap, poor idle, no power to take off and cuts out unless rpms are high. I noticed that if i raise the dwell, decrease the gap, the idle smooths out and rpms dont bounce as much. before i buy anything im hoping to get ideas of what to check out.

young olds

other than the pinging it ran great, had great power and started great, no complaints at all. after tune up adjustments it runs like crap all the way around. Its a manual, 1.8 with points ignition if that helps anything.

MDchanic

I've run those old water cooled VW engines and they take a whole lot of abuse, but I have no experience with points ignition or carburetion on them.
I would ask whether you have a proper manual for it - if not, you'll need to get one. It sounds as though you just adjusted something wrong.

... And it's "gapped." "Gaped" has an entirely different meaning in these modern times, and made me wonder exactly what it was that you were doing with your car.

- Eric

young olds

I had gapped first but my computer keeps saying thats incorrect spelling. I got a manual with the car and i have the dwell on the high side of what it says, 44-50. My tach/dwell meter says double 8cyl scale for 4 cyl, i assume they mean rpm and dwell? it has a weber on it but idle timing and dwell have been set withing factory numbers. currently the timing is has been set by ear and dwell is at 50, which has provided the best results since my tune up.

MDchanic

Makes you wonder what it's thinking.


Doubling the 8 cylinder reading will give you the 4 cylinder RPM, but Tach / Dwell meters I've seen have a separate scale for dwell, and, if I am not mistaken (never really thought about it), dwell readings do not vary with cylinder numbers or RPMs, so you are actually setting the dwell angle to 22°-25°, which is pretty much guaranteed to make the car run like crap, and is why it runs best at the highest dwell setting.

- Eric

young olds

my meter looks like this, no 4cyl scale and my gap is small .012 there is no provision to adjust dwell while running.

vette442

Wow, a Dasher. Love it. Have you checked thesamba.com? Great classic vw forum. My buddy has two gen 1 Sciroccos, a Beetle and a Karmann Ghia to go with his vintage muscle cars and I'm always looking for the perfect orange Squareback, so I've spent a lot of time perusing that site. I'm sure you can get good advice there too.
Terry

young olds

i havent really checked around, not interested in joining another site as i have no intention of keeping this car. but thanks for the tip

MDchanic

If you are setting dwell with a feeler gauge on a used set of points, then you are setting them too wide. You can only set new points accurately with a feeler gauge. As they are used, they develop a "mountain" side and a "valley" side, and the feeler gauge bridges the "valley" while measuring from the peak of the mountain.
Also, I hate to tell you this, but you are spoiled if you expect a distributor cap window and a screw adjuster - most cars never had those, and setting the dwell properly was an annoying trial and error process that built character.

As for your meter:


I have checked, and, in fact, I was wrong - the dwell scale does double when you halve the number of cylinders.
This means you should be setting the meter to 22°-25° on the 8-CYL Dwell scale in order to get 44°-50° dwell on a 4-cylinder engine.

- Eric

young olds

Im used to working on gm with a window. I am setting it with a feeler gauge then checking with the dwell meter, right now i got it just under 25, double to 49ish i guess. yes its used points, only thing thats new is wires.

rustyroger

With new points the gap should be .4mm, the plugs .6mm., that's .015" and .025" as near as makes no difference. If you set the points gap accurately and the distributor isn't worn you will have the correct dwell.
If closing the points gap, which increases the dwell, helps a bit then your coil might need replacing.
You have reconnected the condenser properly I trust?, in your shoes I would replace the points and condenser as a matter of course.
I don't know how VW American spec carburettors compare with European spec ones, but unless you are confident with them I wouldn't mess with it.


Roger.

tmaleck

I used to work on these back in the day. Is this carb or fuel injection? The 1.8's were know to wear out distributors, I used to keep a couple in stock. If fuel injection, the rubber o-ring seals and plastic seats used to wear out, causing massive vacuum leaks, and a lean run condition. Lots more to look at if this doesn't help.

Tim

cfhcar

you could look at getting a points file. file the electic conacts and then try to adjust the points. the one oldsmobile i have if you let it a month you have clean them to get to start, but it a 7th car so it doesn't matter to me.

young olds

It's carbureted and its a weber carb not stock. I've messed with it a little more and don't think it's ignition unless it weak ignition. There seems to be a weird spot in the throttle range where fuel pours out of the accel pump nozzle causing a rich condition that is trying to put out the flame. It not the accel shot, fuel continues to come out after throttle stops moving but only at a certain spot. Above or below it runs great again.

young olds

Ok did some more poking around. I think i have a lean part throttle. I need someone who is good with webers, i dont want to change anything because it ran so good before.

young olds

I'm back to not knowing what's going on in there, messed around with the carb and nothing cured it. Unsure whether it's carb or ignition related.

MDchanic

I'd get the ignition straightened out with new points and condenser, so as to be sure that part of the equation is okay, and then look at the rest of it.

- Eric

young olds

Yeah I'm leaning towards doing that

rustyroger

Eric is right, unless you have the ignition correctly set up you will never get it properly tuned, if it was running ok (apart from pinging) before you did any work can you set the carburettor back to how it was?.
Weber carburettors were sold as aftermarket replacements for a number of European and Japanese cars in the '60s thru '90s. Mostly not as good as OE carbs, particularly in the later years, and especially on Japanese cars, but they were simple to install and set up. Most tuning is a matter of checking the idle mixture, idle speed, and float height.


Roger.

boese1978

Sure you checked but perhaps another look to insure you did not cross wires somewhere?

oldcutlass

In 75 these cars pinged a small amount due to the way they were tuned and the new crap fuel (unleaded) that was mandated by our govt. Then they started to install knock sensors that would decline the timing to overcome the issue. Get your timing straightened out and try using a higher grade fuel.

young olds

I have no idea where the carb was before. I adjusted the mixture screw for fastest idle then slowed it down with idle screw and repeated a couple times. I put the dwell back to where it was before but idk where timing was but its advanced more than the tune spec. How much distributor shaft play is normal? Last time I messed with it the dwell was jumping around at idle and would steady when reved. I drove it on the freeway today and it was jerking when holding a steady speed but seemed to run normal while accelerating. It seems the only time it runs correctly is at idle and very low throttle but anything above that it breaks up and sometmes almost acts like it dies unless under acceleration.

young olds

If I can find a stock carb I'd put it on, this is my third weber and the only one I've had work right was the one I didn't touch, might be me. Idk if it is the carb because I can't imagine how it could change so drastically from a tune up.

young olds

i made a discover today, I bought points couldnt get the coil or condensor. point changed nothing but if i closed the choke it reved up fine so i made a clip that held the choke so airflow could not pull it open and it ran fine completely cleared up the problem. Idk if there is a vacuum leak but blocking air at idle does not make it rev up

MDchanic

So you're saying that it runs fine with the choke closed, but not with the choke open.

I agree that a vacuum leak is a possibility, but another possibility is a blocked jet or port in the carburetor, especially if it seems fine at idle, where most vacuum problems are the worst.
I'd recommend a through disassembly and cleaning of the carb, and a double check of the gasket positions, to be sure that none of them is backwards, causing a gallery to be blocked.

- Eric

young olds

not completely closed, obvious, but yes. at idle there is no change from closed choke to open except if i close it to much it dies. off idle it breaks up and stumbles/flutters, with the choke held closed it runs just fine off idle. I was thinking the same thing about a plugged jet, ill take the carb off and go through it.

tmaleck

Sounds like you might want to read up a bit on Weber carbs. They do not adjust like a Q-jet. The throttle speed screw is really a throttle stop. It sets the throttle blades in the correct position. Too far open or closed and you start having trouble. Webers use an emulsion tube design to set mixture, and there are a series of ports in the venturi that feed the mixture at different times into the airflow. It adjusts more like a Holley, if you've done one of those before. The actual procedure varies by model, I assume this is a DGV conversion that was popular back in the day. I'm sure there are websites that can walk you through it a lot better than my failing memory...
Tim

young olds

I took the carb off and went through every thing, took everything off, blew through holes with carb cleaner and air put it all back together and nothing changed. noticed i didnt have o rings on my idle jet screws so i put some one, didnt change anything but they are supposed to be there. so im still driving with that clip on the choke, drives fine but not as much power.

young olds

still having problems and driving with the clip on the choke. its dgav if that makes a difference.

young olds

Made a new discovery, I was driving on the highway and my clip came off and it started doing what it does. My alternator is kinda weird and sometimes it kicks in an puts out a ton of voltage and my lights get bright and fans start blowing harder. When it does this this driving around town it seemed to make my problem worse but I thought it may have been coincidental that it happened when the lights got bright. But lastnight the alternator did that twice and the it exaggerated the problem and when the alternator stopped it went back to the way it was. On my return trip I had the clip back on and it drove fine but when the alternator put out a higher voltage it acted like the clip was there until the alternator went back to normal and then it smoothed out again. When I got the car I put on an alternator for an ac car because it had more amps and was actually cheaper. Don't know if this could be it but I'm going to try driving it with the alternator unhooked

rustyroger

Don't run the engine with the alternator disconnected.
You will fry it in short order.
Sounds like the old alternator has a bad voltage regulator, it's possible that will upset the ignition system, but with points ignition kit's unlikely to do any serious damage except to the coil.


Roger.

young olds

turning the alternator with it unhooked will damage it? what would be happening that when the voltage spikes it runs poorly?

rustyroger

The alternator will act as if trying to charge a completely flat battery, but has an open circuit.
Voltage spikes will make the coil act up, it is designed to work from 9-14 volts, tired battery startup to fully charged battery, I think in a VW via a ballast resistor or resistor wire.


Roger.

young olds

ok, well I guess I'll just take the belt off. This thing is weird, stranded me at 4:30 this morning. When I got It home the point gap was so big it didn't close at any point on the lobe

rustyroger

Sounds like your distributor is shot. I'd guess the base plate is moving about and sticking. While it is doing this your timing will be all over the place, until you sort this out you will never get the carb right.


Roger.

young olds

How would I check to see if that's happening? On a side note, is Roger a common name where your from?

MDchanic

A quick perusal of the interwebs reveals that in recent years, Roger was the 3,822nd most popular name in the UK,
whilst in the US it has declined from the 22nd most popular in 1945 to the 536th last year.

- Eric

rustyroger

Take the distributor cap off and prod the base plate. if it tilts there is something wrong, from completely knackered to a loose screw.


I didn't know Roger was such an uncommon name. I bet Claud, my first given name is even less common. How many people with the surname "Gurr" do you know?.


Roger.

young olds

Other than my granpa my father and I, I've only known two or three other poeple with the name Roger. Ok I'll poke around at it next time I mess with it

young olds

After leaving me stranded Monday morning I haven't been able to start it. My dad and the guy I bought it from think it's the carb. I talked to the previous owner yesterday and he said it gave him trouble too