Octania

93 Saturn SL2 DOHC engine in the kid's car

Has oil, oil light not on, but now knocks

Why would it fail like that, if it has oil in it?

The good news is, just changed the oil in the Olds' 403
I did not ck the oil filter first- I write mileage and date on 'em...
Filter & oil were changed 500 miles ago [five HUNDRED], 11/2012, right after the break-in.

Runs like a champ. Slight oil drippage, maybe rear main seal, not sure, don't care. It don't knock and kicks ****.

http://s19.photobucket.com/user/Rock...9ec6a.mp4.html

oldcutlass

Time to find a new Hoopty.

Octania

That was my first thought. We JUST bought new tires and a new battery.

I have had some luck fixing rod knocks with the engine in the car.... on an Olds V8.

I guess it can't hurt to peek into the engine and see what all is fubar'd.

Worst case, have to give up and find another something. Preferably something similar so we can use this 1 for parts.

For grins I looked up VW's close to Lansing on epay. Sorted by cheapest 1st

HOLY CRAP the CHEAPEST one is $3000, 8 yrs older than the saturn, but at least a convert.

brownbomber77

I've got an SW2 with 299,000 on it...I'll be glad to sell it to ya after I take it to 300,000...haha

Octania

Died on the highway. Story 1 was about passing a semi and getting to maybe 80-90 mph. Later story has no semi in it.

Got the pan off with engine in place. Not bad... in the dark up there.
Wiggle the #3 rod, she's tight. #2, not so much. Pull #4 rod cap, very nice, like new. Other end of the engine- oh damn pcs of bearing sticking out the side. Wrestle the cap off and bearing pcs out. Much of the bearing was extruded out the side clearance. Cap is FUBAR. Assume the rod is as well, moot point now, she's toasty. Head would have to come off, mitaswell.....

Looking for another similar 1.9L DOHC engine. Local yard says $150 for a gamble motor. Epay folks want $600-1000 for used engine... some not too far away in the $400 range.

Evidently the kid drove it a LONG TIME after the first horrid noise.

I guess I won't be having a motorcycle this year either.



Anyone out there got a gas sipper POCrap for sale?
I do have an NOS 3100 V6 engine, so a gm-ish thing that needs an engine would be ok.

Redog

Saturn with a knock? That makes me

Octania

Yeah, it's a lot of money down the drain at this point. New tires, new battery, recent brakes, exhaust.... Undrivable now.

Or, maybe I can just put new bearings in and run her some more!

https://picasaweb.google.com/1085196...66/Saturn93SL2

#4 looks almost new
#1 was extruded out the rod side clearance and had to be removed from the crank journal with Vice Grips.

This was run a LONG TIME after it started making noise.

Allan R

I'm not sure whether it's worth your while to invest any more time and $$$ in a 93 Saturn. That 1.9 I believe is the same from 91 - 2002 so there is availability if you want to do a transplant.

My wife has a 96 Saturn and the head gasket failed at around 38K miles, but it was past time warranty. Dealer wouldn't work with me, so I've been waiting for it to crater for the last 12 years. Amazing what a can of CD2 stop leak did. It's currently only at 88K miles after 17 years. In all fairness it hasn't cost me anything but an alternator, 2 batteries, EGR and o2 sensor in all that time. I don't count routine stuff like brakes, hoses or strut replacement as a major cost because I do them myself.

No disrepect intended, but from the 'changing story' of how it was damaged and how long it was damaged? I'd say tell him to buy another car with a warranty, part this one out (right) and get scrap value from the wrecker.

BTW, your picture link didn't work for some reason.

Octania

https://picasaweb.google.com/1085196...eat=directlink


Still learning Picasa web page thing

except for that photo of the rod upper end with bearing welded to it, and the journal worn egg shaped to the tune of oh say 1/8".... I'd just put bearings in it and reassemble.

went to boneyard today
$150 for "an engine"
up to you to verify fitness...
or $500 for an extracted one with a sort of guarantee, plus a drive to get it.
It LOOKS like you have to drop the entire engine trans cradle to do this- there is NO room to move the engine away from the trans in the car. :-(

Stash this one for parts or part it out and press on I guess.

Time for the kid to get a job and pay for his own antics.

Allan R

Have you seen this? There are 2 parts , the second one is the one you'll really enjoy. Shouldn't be much different on the 93 series cars. Richpin has an entire series of videos for Saturn that I've found helpful when working on ours.

The 'trans cradle' you're referring to is the front subframe of the car. It's the same part for Saturn, Sunfire and Cavalier IIRC.

Octania

1994 engine on the way

http://www.ebay.com/itm/380683492458...84.m1438.l2649

Mr. Seller has conveeeeniently left 100,000 miles off the mileage in every ad for every part off this car. I pointed that out to him. Still seems fair. I cannot find anything but crusty pcs of crap and worse for under $3000 here.

Damn hurricane took a quarter million cars away...
Gov't clunkers thinned the selection too.
Some of us can't just go buy a new vehicle every other year.

Allan R

Plug n play. you can practice on either one of them now for taking the engine out, but I'd play with the old one just in case. Sounds like a good 14-20 hour job in front of you.

Aceshigh

This is IMHO your best option......a transplant from a low mileage junkyard car.
Chasing gremlins isn't always the best route and can get costly.

You can pick up GM LS 5.3L V8's with full blown EFI and accessories for $1,000 and under.
So I'm sure you can pick up a low mileage Saturn putt putt pumper for half or alot less.
This is something I finally realized, you can keep these cars going for lifetimes if you just buy a few spare cheap motors.

EDIT.....Okay now I read the rest, and see you're going this route. Good plan.
I use www.car-part.com
Use this to search junkyards nationwide, by distance from your zip code, and cheapest prices.

rustyroger

Give your boy some tough love, make him help (and pay for the replacement engine) or better still supervise and make sure he does it properly.
He might learn not to ignore new noises next time.

Roger.

MDchanic

Glad you found something.

My boy just turned 16, and I'm worried about the same phenomenon.
I found him a good Jeep Cherokee for $450 and helped him fix it up (read: he watched me fix it up and hended me wrenches), with the intention that he would pay off the $450 when he got a J-O-B (that's a week and a half's work at minimum wage), but then my wife insisted that we GIVE him the car for his birthday, because "I always wanted to give him a car when he turned 16."

Now I'm worried about the "no investment / no care" phenomenon that I saw in all of the rich kids when I was growing up - he'll just assume that if he breaks it, we'll get him a new one.

My only advice to you, and it's not very good advice, is to get your kid in there shoulder-deep helping you with this engine swap, and make sure some injuries to knuckles and fingertips are involved, so that there's an understanding of the fact that this is WORK, and is what happens when we floor it just to see how high that little needle goes.
I made mine help me clean his car out two days ago, finally just forced him to do it.
He kept saying, "I'm tired. I'll do the rest later."
I had to repeatedly tell him "No way - you'll work till the job is done."
Honestly, I know he just plain isn't into this stuff, but still, I think I'm a failure as a parent.

Kids today.

- Eric

Allan R

Seriously? 450.00 is nothing compared to what you've spent feeding him BTW, how do does he 'hend' you wrenches??

Perfectly valid point from your perspective Eric. I'm a bit like you expecting my son to help me (and he actually does when I ask), but he doesn't come out just to see what I'm doing or why. His mechanical skills are slow but he works safely and does get dirty too. I know that it's a 'wishful' hope they will follow in our interests. Graeme has more computer skills than I can shake a stick at (especially in 3D aspects like CAD, Autodesk Revitt, Sketchup etc), so when I have trouble with things on the puter (and I'm no slouch there either)- he guides me in my learning so it's understandable. Kind of a tradeoff that works.

You've already solved your problem Eric, but you're not seeing it. You know his limitations and interests - there's no failure here as far as I can see. Be proud of him for what he CAN do. I'm sure he respects you a lot for what you can do but he has no interest in. I found that 'forcing' the issue on folks is a delicate balancing act with a 2 sided sword. I can only speak to my situation but I'd prefer to do the work on the car and keep a close bond with my son than force him to do what he doesn't have skills for and create separation between us.

In the long run I'm sure the best solution will be to steer him towards a new car from a brand that will offer 10 year 100K mile warranty including free oil changes for life. You're right that there's a growing trend towards reliance on others for maintenance so it's best to put the responsibility where it belongs - on him, not you. He'll learn one way or the other

Octania

Replacment engine got installed over the weekend. Chuck & Eddie's in Connecticut, asbout $550 delivered to loading dock at work. Went surprisingly easily. NO broken off bolts. '94 incoming engine ran EGR off electrical signal- whereas '93 car used vacuum, so a bit of changing of vacuum lines there. Most of the accessories were easy to get at with RF wheel off, and from underside. Spark plug recesses had some bit of oil around plugs #2 thru 4, so maybe the valve cover is leaking? I thought it was water at first, but removing the juice with a tissue showed it to be oil. Plugs looked OK but worn, so the new plugs from the old engine will be used.

The trans wiggled fwd with engine out, allowing RH driveshaft bracket to swing around past the steering, and with engine in place the bracket would NOT go back past, like 1" interference. Luckily the steering unit has only 2 easy to reach bolts, and only 1 had to come OUT to gain access. None of the exhaust bolts even broke off. Supplier was kind enough to leave intake and xst manifolds in place.

Bought a new water pump as the supplier insists. Bought a cheap one at AutoZone. Go to install it, to find that a bypass? hole is not even covered by the gasket flange on the pc of crap new water pump. Took it back, asked to see another brand, yep, more pricey unit has correct stamped steel flange with correct silicone gasket properly routed out around the hole. Details, details.

The alternator wire, instead of loosening the nut, turned the whole thing, breaking the insulating plastic grommet washer.... Grrrr.... removed alternator with wire on it instead. Just a small crack so it got fixed with silicone and put the boot back over it.

The kid was there every bit of the way, helpful in supplying the right tool w/o me having to get up off the ground again. Organizing the fasteners. keeping the tools out of the way yet handy. Prying, holding the light, finding lost items, spotting things from another view, putting up with my frustrations [very few on this job!], and learning the basics. Like, what a PITA this is, so, don't ruin another engine! At least he didn't run it out of oil like the older kid. We didn't throw a fit over it though, you know, let he who has never ruined an engine cast the first stone, right? Even the wife killed a car early in her driving career.

A few things that made life much easier:
air ratchet
impact swivel sockets
ratchet wrenches
cordless impact

Just need a battery now, and we should be ready to see how she runs. $140 for a new battery, with core charge. WTH? Oil is $4 a quart now- gone up faster than gasoline. The good news is, the same battery is used in the '85 442- which is where the Saturn's previous nice new battery went!

rustyroger

Let's hope the new engine runs good, glad to hear your boy lent a hand, here's hoping he will look after this one!.

Roger.

Olds64

I hope the new engine runs well. I read everyone's posts, maybe I'll have a son I can teach evetually. My daughter is still pretty young (4 1/2). I'll at least try to teach her how to change a tire and the oil. We'll see what happens in years to come...

Octania

Something seems wrong with the engine:




(:-O


.

Octania

After a horrendous noise when the PS pump tried to eat a hidden bolt that was not tightened, the engine seems very happy now! Test run with water, ready to drain and put in antifreeze and road test it!

Dirt cheap engine $550 delivered from CT to MI- Chuck and Eddie's

MDchanic

There's always that one f__king bolt...

- Eric

Olds64

I agree. When I disassembled the top end of my wife's VW Bettle there was one bolt holding the upper intake manifold on the engine. I didn't realize it and pried to vigorously snapping the bracket the bolt was attached to. Luckily, the intake manifold wasn't damaged too bad and I reassembled it without the bolt and there were no problems.

rustyroger

GM UK (Vauxhall) had the bright idea of having one of the inlet manifold bolts inside it on a couple of their engine designs. You had to remove the carburettor to access them. More than one mechanic ended up smashing off the manifold to find the offending bolt firmly fastened to the head. I'm glad I'd heard about this before I had occasion to remove one.....

Roger.

Olds64

Engineers sure are crazy. Who came up with that idea?

Octania

*sigh*
I just can't get a break lately

http://s19.photobucket.com/user/Rock...8a8a8.mp4.html

Engine runs GREAT
now either fwd or reverse it just BANG BANG BANGS and shakes the engine, then it even made rubbing noises in N with just the engine running.

ANY chance this could be as simple as eaten a CV joint?

Mid-Mi cheap kids car f/s anyone?
My G-body is too rusty to drive, really, needs a brake booster and I do NOT want to Put ANY more money into it.

J-(Chicago)

I have another 93 Saturn here that runs and drives. $400
Get this junk off my driveway.
It's a SC2 and a total beater.

Allan R

Chris, that video sounds absolutely horrible. Have you searched for an answer to this on the Saturn Forums?

Octania

Chicago may be too far to get a $400 beater but that is an option for now.

This one I have not had a chance to even lift it and take a look underside.

No ATF on the ground, and trans seems full so still hoping it is a broken CV joint or maybe flexplate. Why it became a rubbing noise even just with engine running at the last bit worries me. At first it was normal good idle until power is applied then BANG BANG BANG and not much movement, though you could push the car a few feet easily.

slantflat

Torque converter binding somehow? Bolt loosened up, flexplate cracked?

Octania

Might have caught a break. inner LH CV joint has a wasted boot and spooge all over the place.

The one thing that worries me now is the noise it made with engine running but [I think] not even in gear, at the end of the first examination.

Will find out more as we investigate.

Octania

Is there a web site that will tell what other cars I can get this axle from?
There is a 91 SL2 in the local yard, so maybe that is the same?
I am looking up each car at e.g. RockAuto.com to see what PN it says... slow...

rustyroger

Maybe a good parts store guy with long service may be able to help you.
Can you buy a reman inner cv joint?, try a good parts store, you might be surprised.


Roger.

Octania

Pulled shaft out. kind of weird, I expected it to be broken. It appears that the boot clamp came off, then the grease got thrown out, then the rollers gradually ate thru the outer shell until they could slip past the surface they were supposed to bear against.

All three inner rollers were intact. Missing circlips? first one came right off in my hand. 100 teensy needle bearings inside it. Nothing obviously too bad on the shaft inner end/ rollers. I did see ONE of the needle bearings was broken. Probably from the banging. The inner end hollow shell looks like it had been beating on something, with three indentations, but not aligned right with the three cavities for the rollers. Pic later?

$100 for a rebuilt shaft with core, plus shipping from RockAuto.com.

Local yard has online INVENTORY
oh look a 1991 Saturn SL2, same model.
They even provide the ROW NUMBER for easy finding the car. Beats wandering every row to find it.

They close at 6; I arrived at 5:10 with the tools used to dismantle my car. Pry bars, the one wrench for the ball joint nut, vice grips, spray lube. The car's shaft looks used but in great condition.

Attack it. Turns out the ball joint nut on my car was rusted down to 17mm from the std 18mm tool size- I did not pay attention, and did not bring EVERY wrench in. Not even in the vehicle. No way a 17 wrench is going on this 18 nut. Dammit. Vice Grips wins.

BFH gets the BJ loose and the shaft to move out of the hub. BFPryBar gets the BJ out of the strut, and inner CV out of the trans.

Out the door at 5:55 for $31, well, $32 with admission fee.

Put shaft in car, no problems. Checked to make sure the mounts were OK and the shaft was not hitting anything anywhere. Starts w/o horrid noises now. Looks like I caught a break on this one after all.

MDchanic

I love it when a plan comes together.

Glad you got 'er fixed!

- Eric

rustyroger

Remarkable really how tough CV joints are considering they have to deal with sending the cars power round bends.....
Mostly they fail because the rubber boot has failed letting grit in and grease out, otherwise they are remarkably long lived.


Roger.

Octania

Un freakin' believable

ONE WEEK the shaft lasted.
A peek underside shows grease all over, evidently it was able to yank the shaft out of the inner end shell AGAIN???

I replaced the lower arm/ Ball Joints last fall, PRETTY sure the new pcs were identical to the old, and it stayed alive until 2 weeks ago.

Motor mounts are newish, trans mount does not seem to be apart or out of place.

WTH?

How is this thing able to yank the shaft apart again and again?

Off to search the interwebs for tips.

I got stuff to do, this is getting to be a real drag.

Octania

For Sale
good running Saturn 1.9L DOHC engine

Done diddling around with this car.
Dropped LH shaft again after 1 week.

New windshield recently
engine burns NO oil.

500 for engine or Make Offer