stonecad

Thanks for commenting - I have a 1965 400 B block engine given to me by my father to put into my 1967 442 Project Car I am about to start. My question shows my lack of knowledge on these things.

With the 1965 400 being a 1 year engine and the 66/67 E being difficult to come by as well - are these two engines worth the same as the other. I am taking the B block & heads down to have them cleaned up at one of the local performance shops around here so I don't know the exact condition of the engine.

From my Dad - Its a 4-speed engine with original forged crank with recess for the pilot bearing. Forged pistons, heads and intake are original as well.

So what say the forum? Could I expect to make a trade at some point if the engine checks out.... I will have some pictures of the engine this weekend to post the casting numbers.

oldsmobiledave

Your comments include that the engine has forged pistons & that they are original. If I am not mistaken the factory pistons in a 65 400 are cast. Check to see if they are standard bore or over size.

stonecad

the crank is forged, pistons are cast - I will post some pics once the engine and its components come back from the shop. Thanks for the pointers!

Oldsmaniac

I think the trade would be doable if you found someone with a 65 442 project car and it had a E block and he was looking for the B block. I was on a search a couple of years ago for an E block. I found a few on craigslist but the prices and shipping were just too much. I was about to put a 425 in my 67 but placed an ad on 442.com. A guy responded right here in NJ and I picked it up for 300 bucks as is with rusty cylinders. Thankfully it was a rebuildable core. It pays to advertise. They are out there.

stonecad

Thanks, I dropped the block, A-heads and crank off at the machine shop. They are going to clean up the block test it and then proceed with the other components if block checks out. I would like an e block with c heads if I find a suitable trade I would consider it...

Old Olds Fan

Stonecad, Did you ever find your 'E' block, I have a running 'E' block in my 65 442, I also have a 'D' 425 form a 66 98 (4brl) in the machine shop now ready for line hone , deck and boring, I'm building a 87 octane "driver" and I'm looking for a 'B' 400 With a date code between 102 and 190 (number to right of distributor hole cast in block), I've my own correct 'A' heads so all I'm looking for is the short block, If you've got the correct 'B' block I would be interested. My 'E' engine compression tests at 180 '#s across the board, all cylinders even at 180. It runs very well, I've currently got the L69 66 Tri-carb induction on it ( Not for sale) If you aren't in to much of a hurry maybe we could work something out.

stonecad

I am interested. I apologize for not responding sooner. Ive been super busy. I will check the date codes this evening when i get home

stonecad

Date Code is 120 on my B block - im definitely interested in working something out if you still have the E block, thanks

Old Olds Fan

Hello stonecad, O.K. so what I have, that I think you could use, probably it would be just the 'E' short block. Mine is dated 87, I don't know whether anyone can tell whether that's the 87th. day in 1966 or 1967, that would be your issue. If you've got a 67 442 then you'll need C 394548 heads, which I don't have. I do have big value 'B' 389395 heads, they would be for a 66 442, but carry a 98 code, because they came off a Starfire ('D' 425)
I don't know how we'd do this swap, because as I said my engine is in my car running and I want to build the 'B' engine before I pull the 'E'. How far along are you in your process? Would you want to build the 'E' or are you going to run it in stock configuration? If that's your plan, you wouldn't have anything to do to my engine it runs well. Just find heads, get them done in a stock way, and bolt it all together. You might have an issue with push rods because the 'E' is a 39* tappet angle block and I don't believe all 'C' heads will accommodate the 39* block, the later (68and above) engines were 45* again your issue.
How to get this done? I guess we could decide on prices and I'd buy yours and pay you, I'd have to have time to get that engine built, and then I'd pull mine and you could buy it at the predetermined price and pay me? I can't get to my car or even think about any of this until basically, spring. I don't know how that fits with you?
Not to worry, I'm going to find and build a "correct" 400. I'm then going to pull the 'E', I can always just call you then, but I'd have to pass on your engine if we do it that way. Send me your thoughts, let me know where you are with the 'B', maybe something can work for both of us. Thanks for your reply Jim
P.S. If you have the 'A' heads I'd like to know the stamped code, it's on the front end of the right hand head. (on only one head, if their off the engine) It should be a letter and 6 numbers and maybe another letter.

stonecad

Here is the code

oldstata

Pm sent just need some help with date codes thanks

stonecad

Date codes on head with engine id is 821 153 3 while the passenger head is 821 154 5

Span two days?

oldstata

153and154 should be Julian date
1day apart

On my set it's 140 & 143 3days apart hope I can get the block Julian date soon if it's about the same then 30 days apart it would narrow down block date needed

stonecad

The block julian date in mine is 120

oldstata

v019278. 140&143 block 120

Sorry for posting in this thread but I find it odd how we have earlier v code but later blocks numbers on the others thread it seems they have earlier block numbers like 93 but have later v code like v023xxx

Once again sorry

wmachine

Usually I can tell what year E block from the "mold number". That is the number above the date code number. Basically a '67s have a higher number than the '66s.
I'm guessing your 87 block has a 4 mold number. Simply because I know of at least 4 other ones with a 4. And that would be 1966.
But the blocks are the same regardless. And if the block isn't the original, date codes don't make it any more correct.

wmachine

Once again, date code madness strikes again. The assembly process was not a straight-line process. Not a first-in, first out process.
I don't know why we think everything has to be put in nice neat little rows. It didn't happen that way! A date code is a date code, not a sequence number!
The reason a date code is put on castings is for heat traceability. In other words, for being able to trace back to the foundry heat that it was poured from in case there was a problem with certain castings. This was and still is general foundry practice, and not particular to the automotive industry.
We can *loosely* use dated to help verify some things, but it is not hardfast for anything that specific. It is not sequential in assembly and it does not make a part correct.

Old Olds Fan

Wmachine, Kurt, your absolutely correct it does have the 4 as a 'mold number' and I had always felt it was probably a 66. A major issue for me would be if this short block was a warranty replacement, I don't know that it was, but I don't know if it wasn't either. Is there any way to check what warranty work was done to a particular car PoP #V024052. My car came off the line toward the end of the model year, and my guess the question is, if the engine failed would Olds have put in a 'E' or would they have had 'B' warranty replacement short blocks? I ask this because if the engine were a warranty replacement I would not want to get rid of it, obviously.
Next, I surely know "original" comes only once, even a warranty replacement isn't original, But in looking to bring the car closer to original, if replacing the engine, what are the important parameters to be taken into consideration? This numbers chase is interesting to me because I'd like to find the correct dated 'B' to put back in the car, under my 'original' heads. It looks as if some of the cars being assembled in about the same time frame as mine (2cd. wk. of July) have 120 dated engines, has anyone else done a gathering of this data? Any input would be greatly appreciated, thanks. Jim

wmachine

That is an interesting situation. I know of no way to tell if that could have been a warranty replacement. And to widen the thinking, the block could have been replaced, warranty or otherwise. I do think it is possible that a replacement engine could have been an E. I also think that *if* the engine was replaced with that E block, it would have been done some time after about May of 1966. I can tell you one of the 4/87 blocks has a V118288 head and a first week of June body.
If you could verify it was a replacement block, then it would be interesting to leave it intact with its history. If not, putting a correct B block would make sense. Regardless of the B block date code, as it won't be original anyway. If you want to find one with a date that that "arbitrarily is within some theoretical window" for your build date, then by all means do so. I just don't understand why someone wants to do that when it doesn't really matter. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to single you out. I just don't understand the general obsession with date codes that don't mean anything. "More correct" is like "more pregnant".

stonecad

WMACHINE - Funny stuff! more pregnant is finding out you are having twins!
In this case however I am simply looking for an E block. I am putting C heads from a 68/69 400 engine on to the block I pick up. I am comfortable knowing the castings were the same.

Old Olds Fan

Kurt, I hear you, and it's really true for me, I am going to alter the internals of any "rebuilt" engine going in the car. I'm looking for the 'B' just for a correct block, the date is only a secondary issue, but if I get a choice between 'B' blocks, I'd rather get the one that was out of the same casting batch as the original engine would have been, and I guess closer is better. But I really don't know why. It never will be anything other than a 'rebuilt' engine. That makes it not 'original' from the get go. The engine I'm to build will look period correct, but will run on 87 octane gas, rap up quicker than 'stock', and undoubtedly have a few more horses. I guess I'm just tired of folks mentioning that my engine is "incorrect". I'm sure a knowledgeable person will know it's not 'original' the moment it starts, and it's going to be Tri-carb anyway!!
I still keep track of any reported numbers information regards, production dates, casting numbers and dates for both blocks and heads, so keep it coming. Maybe in a while we'll see patterns emerge which will make predicting what blocks carried what heads and when they were being assembled into cars more apparent. I've been having a big time just reading about the foundry, a vicious life in the 40's, 50s' 60's. See this site:http://goluckydonald.newsvine.com/_n...-defiance-ohio AND http://goluckydonald.newsvine.com/_n...ohio-continued

oldsmobiledave

Why build an engine to run on 87 Octane?. You will see much better results if you build your engine to run on premium fuel. Are you planning to put so many miles on it that the difference in costs between frequent 87 Octane fill ups vs 91-93 Octane fill ups is going to be a deal breaker?

wmachine

I've been in the foundry business for over 40 years now, and through lots changes. It is still pretty cool in its own ways.

Some things for you to consider. If you're not going stock anyway, the E 400 is a better block to build. Better yet, go to a 425 and get the benefit of more cubes. Still "period correct" if that appeals to you.
The last thing I'd do is be the least bit concerned about what "the experts" think.

Old Olds Fan

Kurt, NOW we're into the conversation I’ve been having with myself for months. I've got a low mileage, on spec., 425 'D' with 'B' heads, I bought it because after unsuccessfully chasing a 'B' 400 for months, I decided a 425 in hand was better than a 400 'in the mail'. As I contemplated the build it got more and more out of hand, looking for H.P. First compromise, aluminum heads, well then why not crank fire, oh well maybe coil on plug, etc., etc., Then I reminded myself that I really want period correct, my car's to original, to heavily modify. It's never been hit, all original tin, the interior is original except for the front seat skins and rugs. Soo, back to the drawing board, now I'm thinking, stay with the iron heads, I'll send them to Mondello in Tenn. and do a 'B' block if I can get one easily, if not I'm with you and it will be the 425, punched. I'd like to do the 'E' but I don't want the car down that long, and the issue mentioned before.
As to what fuel to build it to run on, I've put VP racing fuel (>96 octane), at $8.45 per gal. in the car, I've got to pull the timing back to 2* BTDC or TDC to keep it from knocking.(it compression tests at 180 psi, across the board, just as it should) At that timing setting it just doesn't pull as it should, and God knows I can't afford $8.45 per gal. When I run 92 I have to reduce advance even more. I know how these cars ran when you could get Sunoco 260 and I want that performance or slightly better, 12's. Building the 87 octane engine vs the 92 octane engine is a matter of accuracy, the closer the quench tolerances are, the better the heads are, the better the engine can tolerate crummy fuel. Throw in lightened rods and pistons, low friction ring sets, roller lifters and a duel profile roller cam; I think it will be a pretty strong engine. I figure the gas is only going to get worse, so I'll build to the lower number, be able to run more timing and find gas where ever I happen to be. I do plan on using the car, I want to drive it to any event I care to visit. I also want to put some one in the front seat and accurately say 'this is how it was'.

wmachine

That is a quote worth quoting. That is a quest that really makes sense. Much more than matching date codes and chalk marks if you ask me (which does make sense if you want to capture the feeling of sitting in the car at the dealer showroom and nothing more).
Knowing exactly how they came from the factory is no less important to me than *anybody* else out there. But last I checked, it wasn't a pre-delivery thrill that was the appeal of these cars.

Old Olds Fan

Amen, That's my quest. I'll post the engine build when it begins in earnest.
Keep the numbers and dates coming in, I'll record what I get as a service to the community, post it when it means something. Thanks