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I have a 1971 Cutlass Supreme 2 door Holiday Hardtop that was given to me by my uncle which was his twin brothers who is deceased. Car in very rough shape. My question is what is a Holiday Hardtop? This car does not have a vinyl top at this time but it does have chrome trim around the roof where it may have had a vinyl top at one time. My uncle says it never had a vinyl top. In all of my research I have never seen this chrome around the top that didn't have the vinyl top. Can anyone tell me what I have. I have just started the restoration from the ground up and wanted to know if I need a vinyl top or not.
Now with all that being said I am the wife as my husband does not do computers.
A photo of the car, regardless of condition, would help greatly.
"Holiday" is Oldsmobile terminology for a "hardtop" body style. Hardtop means that there is no pillar between the side windows. Olds would not have called a car "Holiday Hardtop" as that phrase is redundant. There were Holiday Coupes (your car) and Holiday Sedans (four-door). It was a very popular body style back in the day.
Here is a photo of a '71 Cutlass 2-door hardtop. It probably looks a lot like your car. Olds called this a Holiday Coupe. Note that there is no post or pillar between the front and rear windows, so the car has an open, airy look to it when all the windows are down. "Hardtop" is actually short for "hardtop convertible" because the original idea was that the car, when all its windows are down, looks like a convertible with the top up.
Here's a '68 Cutlass WITH a center pillar. There is a frame into which the side windows roll up. The side windows are rolled down on this car, but there is still a pillar or frame between the front and rear windows.
Olds called this body style "Club Coupe." "Club" meant two-door with center pillar between windows, "Holiday Coupe" meant two-door without center pillar. These cars are often also called "Post Coupe," but I don't think Olds ever used that term.
Four-door styles with a center pillar were called "Town" Sedan. Four-doors without center pillar were called "Holiday" Sedan.
To summarize, and this wasn't religiously adhered to over the years, and not necessarily for all models, but it was mostly:
Holiday = hardtop
Club (two-door) or Town (four door) = pillared body style
Coupe = two-door
Sedan = four-door
Olds also reserved the words "Town" and "Club" for four and two-door cars, respectively. So there were "Town Sedans" and "Club Coupes" but never any "Town Coupes" or "Club Sedans", at least not in the era of your car.
Last edited by jaunty75; August 18th, 2018 at 08:04 PM.
It is a 2 door coupe. With the VIN # search it had 1971 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme 2 door Holiday Hardtop Fremont California Serial # 127945.
It does look just like the first picture, however without the vinyl top. That is my question. It has the halo trim like don71 mentioned. So to restore it to original do I need to put a vinyl top on? Thanks for all the great info as it is very much appreciated. My husband is 71 and has worked on old cars as a younger man and knows all about the working part of the cars. We just hope he is up to getting this car back to original as he will be doing most of the mechanical part himself. Will post pictures as soon as I can. Have them on my phone but don't know how to post to computer. Oh! Also it has a 350 rocket V8 motor.
It is a 2 door coupe. With the VIN # search it had 1971 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme 2 door Holiday Hardtop Fremont California Serial # 127945.
It does look just like the first picture, however without the vinyl top. That is my question. It has the halo trim like don71 mentioned. So to restore it to original do I need to put a vinyl top on? Thanks for all the great info as it is very much appreciated. My husband is 71 and has worked on old cars as a younger man and knows all about the working part of the cars. We just hope he is up to getting this car back to original as he will be doing most of the mechanical part himself. Will post pictures as soon as I can. Have them on my phone but don't know how to post to computer. Oh! Also it has a 350 rocket V8 motor.
Post a photo of the cowl tag, which will have codes for original paint, interior, and top. Also, third party VIN decoders are not factory information and may or may not be correct. Olds never used the term "Holiday hardtop" anywhere. Here is the page from the 1971 Salesmans SPECS booklet that lists the available body types for a Supreme that year. Note that there were three: Holiday Sedan, Holiday Coupe, and Convertible. Note also that the body style number (4257) will correspond to characters 2 through 5 in your VIN (ie, your VIN will be 342571Z127945).
II have just started the restoration from the ground up and wanted to know if I need a vinyl top or not.
Originally Posted by jude
So to restore it to original do I need to put a vinyl top on?
To finally answer this question, it's up to you. Of course, to be completely original, if the car had a vinyl top originally, it needs a vinyl top now. But that doesn't mean you have to put one on. Many people don't like them and remove them when they restore a car because they trap moisture and lead to rust problems. But if the car is generally kept out of the weather, if you put a vinyl top on, it will likely last for many years as the car is not likely to be a daily driver.
If that "halo" molding only appeared on cars with vinyl tops, then your car might look a little off without a vinyl top, so you might want to put one on for that reason.
"Restore" means different things to different people. To most, it means getting it back to running condition and looking good. How far a person carries a restoration (even to the point of "over"-restoration, and there really is such a thing) is up to them. It's their car. An example of over-restoration is putting radial tires on a car that didn't have them originally and which weren't available at the time as an option, such as on a 1950s car. If you look at the specs page posted by Joe P, you'll see that bias-ply tires were standard on your car, and the other tire options (P26, PK5, and PX8) also included only bias-ply tires. No radials were offered for your car. If your car has them now, and you probably want them for safety and handling reasons, your car would technically be over-restored, at least in that regard.
Also, Mr. P. mentioned above posting a photo of the cowl tag. Being new to this, as you apparently are, you might not know what this means. The cowl tag is a roughly credit card-sized metal plate attached to the firewall under the hood on the driver's side. It looks like the one in the photo below. It's much better if you can take a clear photo of it and post that, rather than trying to copy what it says. People often make mistakes in the transcription, and where the codes appear on the tag is as important as what they are.
As far as posting photos, get them off your phone and onto a computer, then follow the process described in this thread.
Before I painted it black, my first '68 Cutlass had the "halo trim" with a white painted roof over Jade Gold body paint. I removed the trim and the mounting nubs when I painted it back in '82. Man, hind sight being 20/20, I wish I had kept those trim pieces, LOL!
Well my one uncle who is still alive said it never had a vinyl top. I will be asking his sister later today if she remembers. It could have just had a blue bottom with a white painted top. However my deceased uncle that bought the car new could have removed the vinyl top and painted it white and left the halo trim on it. He was very talented as far as painting and upholstery. In fact I have all the seats that he reupholstered before he got ill that were never put back in the car and are as good as new. He went with black cherry for the upholstery. Wish he had just gone back with the original blue so now we have to decide what color to paint the car.
If it had a vinyl roof, or if it was painted a contrasting color to the rest of the body, would there not be chrome trim running between the roof/C-pillar and bottom-half of the rear quarter from the back of the rear windows to the top of the trunk?. Without seeing pictures, if the car is lacking that trim (or the attachment studs for it), I'd say that it may never have had a vinyl or contrasting-painted roof (acknowledging the possibility that they've been ground-off over the years)..
Okay we contacted his sister and she also said it had no vinyl roof. So we will go with keeping the halo trim on with contrasting colors probably. Thanks so much for all of your input. Will try to keep you posted on the restoration as we go with pictures.
Two tone painted WAS an available factory option on the Supreme in 1971 under RPO D99. Yes, the two tone paint used the same chrome trim as the halo vinyl top. That's got to be pretty rare, as most got the vinyl. Again, the cowl tag would prove this one way or the other in the paint code.
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
Well the good part is the car appears to just have light surface rust, but cameras sometimes don't always show everything.
The bad is the car is sitting in tall grass. That's never good for the undercarriage as grasses can wick moisture up to the frame and floor pans. And since it's been stored outside you may find it's also been a haven for critters. Check under the hood for chewed wires, or nests (especially in the air cleaner)
If the other side looks like this, the trim appears to be all there, and those short wheel opening moldings are like gold to find.
Since the upholstery is now dark cherry, maybe consider painting the outside lower a matching color and painting the top black? It would look pretty sharp!
Thanks Allen R. that is exactly the color we had picked out and were thinking about doing it. I love that color. As far as the underside it does have some rust and he is going to sand blast that. It isn't so bad that sand blasting won't work. As far as the motor it will turn over but not getting enough gas right now to keep it running. We have a new gas tank and gauge ordered. Transmission has to be rebuilt. So that will come first. When we get it home he is going to take out the motor so he can sandblast everything and clean it up before painting all of the underside. Then wheels and then body work. At least that is the plan I think. Oh and I believe all the molding is there and in very good shape.
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
That picture shows the car in 'Burgundy Mist' which is a 1970 color. Olds 1970 PNT code 78
Sounds like your project is already planned and ready to go. One thing to gently remind you about just in case this is your first go at the restoration process. it will take $$$ and time. More than most of us like
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
Believe it or not Dan, that was a good thing to do. It assisted immensely with the braking on snowy or icy roads. That guy was smart, and likely a safe driver too!
I realize that in AZ you don't ever really worry about weather much. Up here in AB though we do. I run snow/ice (aka winter tires) on all four corners of our cars. In some of the Canadian provinces, it's actually the law that winter tires must be used (4 corners) during the winter months. Maybe some will say that's a money grab by gov't and rubber industry but it's a proactively safer than driving on all season tires. I have found their performance to be outstanding in deep snow and ice. The only downside is that here not everyone wears them and end up causing big delays with spin outs and collisions. (yes, I know that most collisions are part of driver error)
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
No idea Dan. Maybe they are but the angle is wrong? IDK For all we know that was the spare tire.
In any event, that car won't be wearing them after restoration so as a roller they'll be fine.
Sorry on the NM vs AZ wrong location.
I guess you already know what severe winter is like and that's why you decided to move to a warmer clime?
Thanks Allen R. We know it will cost lots and will take time to restore it. They got the motor running and there is no clatter at all. It sounds awesome. The transmission is another story. Taking it out and all apart but can't get the last part separated. Have to do some research on this. May have to go with a new transmission but don't really want to. One of the bigger expense has already been taken care of with everything already been reupholstered and we have enough of the fabric and vinyl to do the side panels and head liner.
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
If the transmission is no good, I'd suggest looking into a 200 4R. It's an overdrive transmission (.67:1 final drive vs 1:1 TH350). It's a straight across bolt up,you can even still re-use the original prop shaft. But you'd need to move the transmission mount bracket and install a TV cable to the carb. It will give the same if not better performance and reliability as the TH350, but will cost more to buy and install than just a rebuild on the TH350.
That's great news that the engine fired up and runs well. Of course I'd expect that from an Olds 350. Of course during the restoration, all the rubber lines on the car should be replaced.
Something I'd strongly encourage - Buy the 1971 Chassis Service Manual (get original, not repro) and a copy of the 1971 Cutlass Assembly Manual. Just copy those titles and paste them in your web browser. The CSM is the bible of the mechanics who worked on these cars back in the day. The AM will give incredibly detailed pictures of how the car components were assembled, and are a great guide for restoration.
I can find the assembly manual but it is for the 442. Will this make a difference? Are they made the same?
Yes. The sellers of those manuals say "442" because every Cutlass has become a Faux-Four-Two, but the information covers all A-body cars from that year, including the six cylinder versions. Note that if you are looking for information to repair your car, the Assembly Manual is not your first choice. Get a Chassis Service Manual, which has all the information to rebuilt and repair the car. The Assembly Manual is simply a compilation of the engineering drawings that were used to build the car when new. It will not tell you about maintenance and repair procedures. Get an original paper copy. Do not waste your money on reproductions or CD versions. There were no electronic originals, so any repro or CD is simply a scan of an original paper copy. Lots of detail gets lost in the scanning process, especially fine print on things like wiring diagrams.
Okay thanks that helps. I thought I would need the assembly to take apart and put back together the transmission. You have to remember I am the wife asking questions. I am really into this and may give more help than is wanted. Lol Like I said they have the transmission all apart except they can't get the last part separated. So my husband thinks it may be froze up unless there is a special tool or something that they are not aware of to get it apart. I use to work on old cars with him back in the day when you had to change out a motor in something on a weekend so it would be drive able by Monday to get to work. You sure didn't go out and buy a new car when one broke down. Your help is appreciated.
Location: Edmonton, AB. And "I am Can 'eh' jun - eh"
Posts: 24,525
The CSM has a very detailed section on Transmissions - everything from basic maintenance to rebuild. The torque specs are also included at the back of that chapter. Like I said, this is the bible that Olds techs used to work on the cars back when they were new.
That proves the car is a factory two tone with painted roof. The 11 paint code is the upper body color, which is Cameo White. The 26 is Viking Blue. Very cool. I doubt there were many two tone Supremes.
How wonderful. Thank you Joe. We were hoping that was the case. We did get the car home and we will start working on the transmission. Well we may have to get a new transmission as this one is probably toast.
Thanks again.
ST 71 = STYLE 1971 model year
34257 = Oldsmobile (3) Cutlass Supreme (42) Holiday Coupe (57)
Z = Fremont, CA assembly plant
08872 BODY = Fisher Body sequence number (not the VIN)
TR 993 = TRIM Blue cloth interior with bench seat and arm rest
B80 = stainless drip rail moldings (standard equipment on all Supremes)
26 11 PNT = Viking Blue/Cameo White paint
06C = built the third week (C) of June (06) 1971
The remaining numbers are build sequence numbers unique to the Fremont plant.
This info is not "Chiseled in Stone",but my family was in the car business before 1971 and I believe we sold Cutlass Supreme Holidays ,both coupes and 4 doors with Halo roof mouldings without vinyl tops , where the mouldings separeted two tone paint. What I am saying is I think the halo mouldings were used for both vinyl tops and two tone applications. Larry
August 18th, 2018, 05:59 PM
Halo roof Mouldings
