Hetman

Hello, folks! My name is Mike and I'm an American living in Poland. I've been reading this site for a couple months and trying to study up on Oldsmobiles, and I have to say that the more I learn about them, the more I like them! I have lots of questions about these cars and beg for your assistance in diagnosing the various problems I've been having (and will no doubt continue to have), as well as helping me find some missing parts.

As for a little background on myself, I was raised in a "Ford family" but we also owned tons of VWs, and other German stuff the times my dad was stationed in Germany. We did a lot of tinkering with cars, and the love of cars has never left me. In college in Munich, I bought a 1975 BMW 2002 but when I transferred to Kalamazoo College, I bought a 1973 Monte Carlo as my daily driver, which served me very well for years until it was unceremoniously stolen from my driveway in Alabama in 1994. I loved that car and it never let me down, and the styling was awesome. Later after moving to Poland, I decided I had to have another one, so I found a nice rust-free 73 Monte with a 454 in Arizona and I still have it. I have also bought a couple Cutlasses for the first time in my life. Here they are:

1988 Cutlass Supreme Classic Brougham







This car is an old granny car with only 35,000 miles on it and generally speaking is in good overall, original condition. However, I have the feeling it wasn't regularly serviced and I have yet to get it running right. Actually, from Poland it was a nightmare trying to source basic tune-up items, which I finally managed to get from the States. I put on new belts (I have NEVER seen such a complicated, hard to work on engine with regards to replacing fan belts!!!) and plugs and it runs better but I have some kind of serious spark or fuel delivery problem, and the engine still feels like it's only running on 3 cylinders sometimes. When I get the time, I will try to take apart the carb; maybe something's inside causing intermittent blockage.

If anybody knows where I can find these little trim pieces which are missing from the tops of the fenders, I would absolutely appreciate your help. The car is so close to being complete......

ah64pilot

Man, you've been paying attention! 1st post complete with pictures and a detailed back story! Welcome to CO! I can't wait to see what you do with those cars!

Hetman

My other Olds is a 1963 F85 Cutlass, just in from Los Angeles. It shows 61,250 miles on it and I wouldn't swear that those are not original miles. It seems to be in great shape for a 50 year old car. It cruises like an old dinosaur should but has some rattles and squeaks. Short of putting all new suspension pieces in, I don't see how I could expect better. The little aluminum V8 also seems strong. I'm assuming someone really took care of this prize for a long time, for it to have survived like this. There is no evidence of body damage or rust (though the cowl area had some rust when I bought it and I had it repaired and the car repainted in California prior to shipping). When I bought it, it had an ancient second coat of paint on it and no other rust. I assume it was all black, but I'll need your assistance in decoding all the data plate information.







My youngest son absolutely thrilled to be behind the wheel of a beautiful old classic!



The car was outfitted with what looks like a factory air conditioning setup, but there's no mention on the data plate under ACC. Could it be a factory system, or maybe a dealer-installed item? Some of the pieces are missing now, in particular the vent outlets inside.

I was also very intrigued to find no door lock ***** on the inside of the doors. So there's no way to lock the car from the inside! I guess in a time when nobody locked the doors in their houses, who would think of installing such an unnecessary item in a vehicle?! LOL.

I am missing a few items and would greatly appreciate your help in locating them. I need one hubcap (for a 14" wheel) and black sunvisors. I need a front blinker lens (as visible in the picture, it's broken). Additionally, the windshield wipers are not original and I'd love to have the correct ones. The turn signal lever on the steering column doesn't want to stay in the left position, so I assume the cam inside is broken. Please help me if you know where to find these parts.

Hetman

Thank you so much for the warm welcome, Mr. Apache Pilot!! I am thrilled to be here. And to begin my very long learning curve. As most people know, it's not just about the cars but more the community of friends that enthusiasts share. My brother is a SOCOM Pave-Low and V-22 pilot, by the way.

I have to download some more pics from my camera but I'll be back in a jiffy.

Allan R

Hetman,
Welcome to C.O. Very nice story and pics.
Are you missing just the one trim piece on that fender or are there others?

There are 3 in the local wreckers (81, 85, 86 ) they should all be the same trim I think. I can prolly go look or get one of them (if still on the car) for you. Just don't know much it would be to ship to Poland though.

Great looking boy BTW!

501Paratrooper

Welcome to CO.

Hetman

Thanks for the warm welcomes! And the compliment on the youngest driver in the family. I like taking their pictures with cars because even at 3 years old, they will probably remember these times like I do when I was a kid, and freezing the moment in time will provide additional joy for them when they get older.

I'm missing both trim pieces, left and right side fenders, on the 88 Cutlass Supreme. As you might have noticed, the lower body trim is missing too, but I actually have those parts. The clips were missing on the right side so the previous owner took off the trim from both sides. I recently managed (after many months!!) to locate those clips and will try to get that lower trim back on. Offhand, I can't think of any other pieces that are missing from this car. Oops!! Spoke too soon. I'd love to have one Cutlass Supreme Classic emblem for the sail panel. I have the other one but once again, the previous owner took them off or they came unglued, and only one is intact.

oldcutlass

Very nice cars! Welcome!

Hetman

Here's one of the hubcaps. Is this a common design? The wheels are 14".



Here's the VIN plate:



And the data plate (and some of the A/C plumbing):



Under-dash A/C vents:





Under the hood:

Allan R

Ok, I'll have a look for that stuff for you. If I can get the lower body plastic clips off without breaking them, do you need a spare set? If the Cutlass Supreme emblem is on the car and in good shape, I'll try to get both of them. They are attached with double sided tape IIRC.

Hetman

Thank you, Oldcutlass!

Being a history buff, I'm very eager to decipher and make some sense of these codes. As far as I can make out, my data plate tells me that the Cutlass was built in the 5th week of November, 1962 (11E code) in the Southgate, CA Fisher Body assembly plant (BC code). I'm confused about the 1629 body number. This number should be the sequential number of F85s at Southgate for the 1963 body year? Why wouldn't it match the 04530 sequential number in the VIN? (I've read that the VIN code starts at 1000, so that would mean the 3530th F85 at Southgate?) What am I missing? I know there was a basic F85 and a Deluxe F85, so does the 1629 number refer to only the Deluxe (which I understand to mean the Cutlass?)?

For the 3117 style code, that means it's a 31 series - Cutlass Sport Coupe? The title says it's a "CPE 117", whereas I've also read that it's a 31 Series Deluxe F85. If 31 is the Series, what is 17?

I'm confused by the AAA paint code. I know A means Ebony black, but I've read some confusing information about the third letter code. The first is the lower body color (black), the second is the upper body color (black), so what's the third black represent? Some say it could be the color of the tires. I've also read that a vinyl top was available for these vehicles. If so, wouldn't the third letter represent the vinyl top color? Or how about the interior color? I guess that's addressed by the trim codes, so I guess not. Could my car have had a vinyl top, and if so, how would that have been reflected in the data plate?

I've searched high and low but can't find what the 950 trim code means.

Notice no codes under accessories. I've read this means nothing that the body plant would have had to separately set up the chassis to accept, such as a 4-speed transmission or something like that. But A/C shouldn't require changes to the body, correct? Nonetheless, I've seen the A/C code (N) on some other Olds, so I wonder how they were installed on cars and how that's reflected on the data plates, or maybe it was done in some way at some plants and another way at other plants?

Maybe I'm getting too deep into this.... LOL But I'm curious and would like to hear from you experts on this.

Hetman

Allan, I really appreciate you going out of your way to help me. I"m sure postage for such small and light items won't be much. If you can get the clips without breaking them, that would be a plus! I'm a pack rat and always willing to get multiples of things that I might need down the road.

1988 was the only year this car was known as a Cutlass Supreme Classic; the previous years say only Cutlass Supreme. However, if I got a matched set, I wouldn't mind just putting on the Cutlass Supreme emblems. It's kind of funny over here when so many people stare at the car and nowhere on it is listed what kind of car it is! They can't figure it out. LOL

Allan R

3117 means it is a f85 Deluxe 2 door pillared coupe


The VIN derivative number and the Fisher number are not supposed to match. The VIN number is the sequence in which the car was scheduled for production at the Southgate plant. The Fisher body number is the number assigned to the shell of the car when it was produced by Fisher and sent to Southgate for completion. The VIN did not start at 1000 though it starts at 01001.

AAA is the paint code for lower body/ upper body/ and wheel paint color

950 is the Trim code - in other words what the interior color of the car was. In this case I believe it's black.

BC is the production code for the Southgate factory - as you already stated.

Allan R

Actually the 1988 Year and body style of your car is exactly what the prior years looked like. Having the Cutlass Supreme or Cutlass Supreme Brougham was the only distinction. There never was a Cutlass Supreme 'Classic' emblem.

The reason it's called the Cutlass Supreme Classic is it uses the 'classic' 81-87 body style. 88 was the year that Olds switched production from the classic look to the new FWD Cutlass models.

Reason for switching in mid year production had to do with the large inventory of Fisher bodies that had already been built for the 1987 model year and Olds decided to use them up prior to introducing the new FWD platform.

MDchanic

Hi Hetman. Welcome!

Sorry, I don't think you've got factory A/C there, and I don't think there were ever any vent outlets.

That looks to me like an aftermarket "clip-on" unit, where the evaporator / fan / vent assembly hangs off the dash in the center, right where that hose would have gone.

I believe that the locks on that car operate like those of other small GM cars of the period (read: Chebby II) and with 30s and 40s F-rds - you push the door handle in the opposite direction to lock the doors (that way they automatically unlock when you pull the handles).

Cars, motorcycle, kids... Looks like you're all set over there!

- Eric

1970cs

Witam Hetman! We have a few things in common, my wife is from Poznan also according to your opening statement you went to Kzoo CC were just up I-69 about 1.5 hrs on the west side of Lansing. We have a common interest in the obvious!

Dobry
Pat Robinson
1970 Cutlass Supreme holiday coupe
2004 Alero GLS coupe
OCA member
Former President R.E. Olds Chapter
Former head chair of Oldsmobile Homecoming

64Rocket

Hetman,
On the '63 Cutlass, it is pretty rare to have the 14' wheels. may be hard to find the hubcap.
Also on the '63 i had the was the condenser that monuted under the dash with the controls on the face, it is not there under your dash.
Also the A/C compressor was mounted above the P/S pump on a bracket. again I don't see it, unless yours is down below the P/S pump.
I have some pic's but I have to go to my desk top computer.

Gene

Hetman

Witam Pat! I see you're in on the secret.... LOL. They're not the reason I came over here but very well could be the reason I stayed! Greetings to your wife from me! And when y'all come visit Poland next time, please do drop by! I'm close to Warsaw.

Eric, thanks for that tip! That's a neat trick. I tried it today and sure enough, both doors lock from the inside by pulling the handle forward. I've never seen that before! Yes, this is the oldest car I've ever owned (but not by much; had a few old VWs from 64-72). And thanks for the opinion on my A/C setup. I wasn't sure if it was factory or not, and I still am not. But I wouldn't be disappointed if it wasn't factory. I'd just like to know if it's a dealer-installed option or something out of a JC Whitney catalog. They must have used some factory equipment, no?

Gene, thanks for more info on my A/C system. I know the controls and stuff are missing from the inside. Maybe they were valuable to somebody and they simply got removed. My whole system looks quite well thought-out so that's why I thought it might be some kind of factory or dealer setup. My compressor is mounted below the P/S pump. Does it look like a factory part? Is anything else you see factory equipment?





I've read a lot about 13" wheels being standard but I thought I read somewhere about an option to have 14". Even the Jetfire had 13" rims so I'm a bit surprised mine has 14s. I absolutely need to find a spare rim because I feel embarrassed to drive around with one missing. LOL

Allan, thanks for the additional info on the change-over to FWD for the whole Cutlass line-up. I thought GM had wanted to retire the G-body platform even a couple years earlier but kept putting it off due to incredibly high demand. They even gave it a facelift in 1987 with the Aero front. I know mine looks identical to an 87 but since Olds had already brought out the FWD Cutlasses for 88, they called the 88 G-body Cutlass a Cutlass Supreme Classic. Here's my script and what the leftover glue marks look like on my car:



I know the Cutlasses were produced alongside the Monte Carlos at the Pontiac Michigan plant, but G-body Cutlass production ended late in November 1987 while the Monte SS lasted until mid-December. Mine is about 4000 from the end of production, making it one of the very last ones built. I like the fact that mine has a cool color and the F41 suspension package. It still has the original exhaust system, but it needs to be replaced, and when I do, I'm going with a true dual system to improve performance, economy and sound. I will probably also ditch the AIR pump and piping, and plug those holes in the heads. When I did that with my first Monte over 20 years ago, it really improved the performance.

Allan R

Powitaninia Hetman.
I stand corrected. Please accept my apologies. I've never seen that before with the emblem, but you definitely have the proof. I wonder if they didn't create that knowing full well the 88 would be the last of the classic G body line. Well, I'll tell you what. If I find Cutlass Supreme, or Cutlass Supreme Brougham emblems I'll get them. I'll have to wait until there's an 88 Cutlass in the boneyard to find out if I can find the exact one you're looking for.

If you use some polishing compound, that glue should come off. I'd be inclined to do that by hand instead of power polishing at this stage. The emblem is supposed to be held by 2 sided tape, so it looks like it came off at some time and was glued on again instead of properly taped.
Hope this comes out right - życzę was dobry dzień

1970cs

Witam Mike,

My wife says "dziekuje and witam" On the 88 C.S. have you checked the firing order? CCW 18436572 Just something to double check!
Do you still have the decal on the inside of the trunk lid? If so you may want to check my post 1987 442 RPO codes some of those may crossover?

Since your near Warsaw, have you been to that Oldsmobile bar in Warsaw?

And if you need anything from Lansing let me know!
Pat

Hetman

Allan - nie ma za co .... (Polish for "it ain't no thang") ... I'm sure you've already forgotten way more about Oldsmobiles than I'll ever hope to learn.

Pat, sometimes the engine runs pretty well, so I don't think the wires are crossed. It usually starts running horribly after I've accelerated hard to pass someone, then for the rest of the trip it acts up. Then when I restart it, it usually runs pretty well. I say pretty well instead of very well because I still think there's a misfire somewhere due perhaps to bad plug wires (haven't checked nor replaced them yet) or something in the ignition system. Anyway, the really horrible running condition is usually brought about by hard acceleration.

I have not seen the Oldsmobile bar in Warsaw. I haven't even heard about it....guess I"ll have to google it... LOL. There is a cool diner called the Pink Flamingo serving up a cool 50's vibe whose owner is very interested in the car scene; they're a destination for our car club and cruises.

The sticker with the build codes is still intact and I've been able to decipher most of them. I'll post that up for you, and check out your thread too.

Hetman

Yesterday the weather cleared up for the first time since the car arrived (BTW, that bike on the trailer was not mine....) and I took the opportunity to wash the car and go on a photo shoot. She cleaned up marvelously! I noticed the rug was wet also, in the cabin as well as in the trunk, so I've been airing her out for 2 days now. I do not want any problems with moisture and rust!! I guess one or more of the seals leak...sigh. Are gaskets readily available for this model?

I took for a short cruise around the neighborhood as well, to get more familiar with how she handles and runs. And the more I see and hear of this car, the more impressed I am. This Cutlass has such an incredibly awesome sound, delivered through dual glasspacks that are quite long. It's a low, quiet rumble. Now please tell me if this is the original sound to this car. I thought I could swear that I read somewhere in factory literature that this car was equipped originally with glasspacks. Is that possible? And if so, could I have the original exhaust system on the car? I know it might sound far-fetched, but even if they're not original, the sound might be. Does anybody know anything about this?

I have another question about the engine. I read a factory advertisement for the 1963 Oldsmobile "sports cars" (Starfire, Jetfire, Cutlass) and it mentions two engines (not counting the Jetfire's turbo engine) available: the high compression (10.25:1, 185 HP engine) and super-high compression (10.75:1, 195 HP engine) which came "standard when equipped with Hydra-Matic". So I have the 195 HP engine in my car?

1970cs

Hi Mike,

I stand corrected on the location of that bar Krakow! My memory banks are trying to recall an article from a couple years ago in Journey with Olds
Brains are like shot glasses and we seem to try to fill them with a gallon of knowledge.

Pat

Hetman

As my father in law says, "I have a great memory, only short". LOL

Can someone clue me in on the 14" wheel option? I know 13" wheels were standard, but I've heard that 15" wheels became optional at one point. In what year did 15" wheels become optional? And were 14" wheels optional all the way from the beginning (1961 model year)?

I'm looking to find another hubcap to replace the one that's missing on my car. There's a member here selling a set of 4 hubcaps that he says are 14" but from 1961. What would those look like (no pics yet from the seller)?

Chuck_66

Mike welcome to CO you mentioned that you think you have bad wires rain usually makes this problem worse. I have found on several cars when you open the hood up at night, away from any lights with the car running and it's raining out you can see the arcing. It sounds more like you have a fuel issue maybe dump some fuel system cleaner in the tank.

rustyroger

Hi Mike and welcome to CO.

I may be able to help with parts, my girlfriend and I are making a trip to Texas in early fall, and I work alongside some Polish guys who make trips back home especially over the Christmas break.
If I pick up some of the parts you need I can get them back to England and hopefully some of my Polish colleages will help out getting them to Poland for you.

BTW are thet Polish classic car license plates, they don't look like regular Polish ones to me?.

Roger.

Hetman

Chuck, thanks for the welcome and for the tips. I'd love to get the 88 Cutlass running perfectly. I think it's just a few simple problems but they are highly annoying till I get them fixed. I believe you're right; the intermittent problem seems to be fuel-related, and the general one sounds like a spark issue. I have so many things on my plate now that I haven't had time to track these issues down and fix them.

Roger, thanks a lot for the warm welcome, mate! I appreciate your offer of assistance. If I were to get any parts gathered, I wouldn't know where to send them (except perhaps my brother's place near D.C.). The guy who has the hubcaps for sale says he's trashing everything he has by the end of the month, due to a move necessitating him clear out his storage area. He hasn't responded to my request for a photo of the hubcaps but he assures me they are 14" hubcaps for a 1961 Cutlass and will fit my car.

It's nice you have some Polish friends who are willing to assist in this venture! And yes, the license plates on my cars are special yellow ones for antique cars on the national historical car register. See the cute little Model T-like vehicle on them? I think that's neat.

Hetman

Here's an update, folks! I started my 63 Cutlass yesterday to move it out of the garage and noticed a very strange clacking sound upon startup. It went away after about 2 seconds. When I started it again later, the same thing happened. Then at the end of the day, when I wanted to put her back in the garage, I started up the engine and this time not only was the clacking sound there, but it didn't go away! So today I started it again to see if it still had the problem, and sure enough it's still there. I shut it down, checked the oil level (full) and looked for any possible issues. I couldn't find anything but I got my camera out and recorded it. I'm scared to run the engine now for fear of permanently damaging it. I have no idea what the loud clacking is, but it seems to be coming from the top of the engine somewhere (inside). I'm wondering if a valve is stuck. But I've never heard that sound before on an engine so I'm not sure what I have. I'm uploading the videos now to imageshack and will post them when they're done. Please help me diagnose this problem! Arghhhh!!!

Hetman

The first video was taken 4 days ago when everything was normal, working correctly. The second was taken today and you all can hear the awful clattering/clacking noise in the engine. What is this frightful sound, how/why did it start, and more importantly, how can I fix it?! I'm just a bit heart-broken...

http://s238.photobucket.com/albums/f...F85%20Cutlass/

ah64pilot

You have every right to be, that sounds like a rod knock to me my friend. If it truly is a rod knock the only way to fix it is to pull the engine. You can use a stethoscope to narrow down the location of the noise, just be careful of your eardrums. Check each valve cover, and then check the oil pan. Wherever the noise is the loudest and most pronounced is where your problem is. If it's in the pan it is indeed a rod knocking.

64Rocket

is the oil clean or super dirty?
Sounds like lifter noise to me.
probably needs a fluid change.
Drain the oil, put some good oil in and a quart of ATF.
Drive it for several miles and let us know what happen.

Gene

citcapp

I agree with this sounds like a lifter to me

ah64pilot

You guys all say lifter noise...I must be hearing this deeper than you. It sounds like a firm knock to me rather than a lifter tap. Man, I sure hope you guys are right...

Chuck_66

Mike a lot of people swear by a product called seafoam I personally have not used this product and I don't know if you can get it in Poland. Here is a site that tells you all the uses for this product. http://www.seafoamsales.com/how-to-u...treatment.html

Good luck I see you have your hands full my friends think I'm nuts as I have 8 modes of transportation 3 cars 3 motorcycles 1 truck and 1 boat. I do most if not all the maintenance on all of them.

MDchanic

Of course, it's very difficult to interpret sounds from a YouTube video. It's like trying to decode the Zapruder film.

Having listened carefully, I have to say that I can't tell you 100% whether it's a rod or a lifter, but the character of the sound (rather than its tone) sounds more like a lifter to me.
Also, I've never heard a rod go from zero to 100 overnight like that, but a collapsed lifter, or even a loose pivot, could.

I'd investigate the lifters first, since it's not that difficult, and see if anything shows up.
Next, I'd try pulling one plug at a time - if you've got a rod knock, pulling the corresponding plug should eliminate or markedly change the sound.

- Eric

Hetman

Thank you so much for offering your advice, gentlemen!

So I thought at first that it is some kind of valve train problem due to the location the sound is emanating from (top of the engine) and the characteristics of the noise. It's not a low clunking sound like I'd expect from a crankshaft or rod or main bearing problem (like I had in my first Monte over 20 years ago after a poor engine rebuild). It doesn't seem to be coming from below, either, but rather from the top side. I hope it can be fixed with an oil change; I'll let y'all know for sure what the results are. The oil looks clean but I don't know how old it is nor what type it is. If the top end is being starved of oil, perhaps a lighter oil or even high-grade synthetic (Mobil 1) would get in there and lubricate it properly and break free whatever is stuck, before I even take off the valve cover and valve train?

Gene, are you suggesting putting a quart of ATF in there with 3 quarts of oil? I've never heard of that before but then again, I'm not that well versed in all the little tricks of the trade. I've heard of this Seafoam stuff as well as something called Marvel Mystery Oil (neither of which I can get over here) and wouldn't mind trying something like that to get the lifter unstuck. But if I can get it unstuck by merely changing the oil to something better, maybe I'll try that. Couldn't hurt, I suppose.

citcapp

The ATF transmission fluid is an old trick the usually works to free up a stuck lifter just make sure you change the oil again after a 100 or so miles

rustyroger

Seafoam is equivalent to Wynns or STP in England, maybe they are available in Poland. To clean out dirty gummed oil deposits I have often simply added a quart of diesel fuel to the oil, run it for 20 minutes at fast idle and drained out unbelievable amounts of crap.
I will be based in Llano, Texas from 09/27 until 10/09. If you can get friends to get parts there I can relay them at least back to Europe.

Roger.

Hetman

Thanks for the tips. Concurrently to bringing up this problem in this thread, I started a new thread about this problem in the engine section, to try to elicit a wider audience as well as to not get too technical in this introduction. If the moderators think it's inappropriate, please delete that thread or these posts.

I will follow your advice with the fluid change, and I'd like to start with a straight oil change to see if that does the trick. If it doesn't work, I will change it again and add the quart of ATF to see if that helps. If that doesn't work, I will take off the valve covers and try to see if I can diagnose the problem there, with your assistance.

If I change the oil to fully synthetic to see if that action alone will fix the problem, which viscosity should I use: 5W-40 or 5W-50? I bought some Castrol in the first grade and Mobil 1 in the second. Which would you recommend putting in at first?

Roger, I appreciate your offer to help. First off, I am considering buying the set of 4 hubcaps that are for sale on this site, for a 1961 Cutlass. If your offer is valid, I could have the seller send them to an address you supply. I don't know if I'll be able to find the sundry missing trim pieces but I can try to gather a few parts to ship.

Can anyone tell me if these hubcaps will fit my car? Thanks!

Hetman

I have the best possible news in regard to the 63's engine noise! After draining the old oil (which still looked fairly good, but was obviously old and didn't have the proper lubrication qualities) and putting in 4 quarts of the Castrol Syntec 5W-40 pure synthetic oil, I started her up and let the engine run for about 15 minutes. After a few minutes, I noticed a perceivable decrease in the clatter of the valve train. After the engine warmed up, I started giving it higher RPMs, then dropping it down to idle again. I did this repeatedly and after a few times of higher RPM (3000-3500?) revving, the noise started to decrease. After about 10 minutes of this, the noise had completely dissipated to nothing. It's running like a champ now!!! No trace of that valve/lifter clatter. I'm ecstatic. Thanks for all the advice. Hot damn, I love this car!!!

Does anyone recognize these hubcaps? Are they 14"? Will they fit my Olds? Has anyone here done business with 1962oldsguy in Oregon?