Allan R

To keep the brake fluid from draining out of the Master Cylinder, the lines were removed, capped and plugs inserted into the MC. These lines are in incredibly good condition and I'm seriously thinking of re using them after a trip through the blaster. I know that brake lines can deteriorate from the inside out and that's my only concern about this. The metal feels very strong with absolutely no pitting or soft spots anywhere. I'll resolve this soon enough.



Next I tackled that durned rear brake line. It was a learning experience. Should be a slam dunk, but some modifications I did to the car last year got in the way.

Yesterday when I cut the brake line behind the fitting it let me get the brake hose out slicker than a pinch of penguin poop on an iceberg! The brake fluid from the line bled down and dripped onto one of the mufflers, so it needed to be cleaned up a bit too. As you can see from this pic, there isn't much room to work with. Now if I had taken the body off as everyone said too, it would have been easier than getting a date with a 2 bit hooker. Note the body brace in the back ground? (lower part of pic)


Kind of an awkward angle to shoot but you get the idea. This is the bracket that's bolted in place on top of the frame. It would have been MUCH easier if I had cut it BEFORE installing the lower rear control arm. NOTE: Brake lines can be such a PITA. I used my angle grinder to cut this clamp so there are some rough edges I don't like. I'm thinking I need to take off the sway bar, jack up the rear axle and remove the front lower control arm bolt so the CA will drop down and give me better access here. Another really good reason to do this? That dang body brace has to go on AFTER the brake line is installed. The old line wouldn't come out with the body brace still attached to the CA. There really should be a dummy award for how many times I've had to redo some things....


The rest of the brake line clips were easy to get to and remove. 1/2" self tapping metal bolt. Everything will be cleaned and repainted as required before re-installing, including as much of the frame rail as practical.



The Proportioning Valve was 'nasty looking' with that crud sprayed all over it. You can see it clearly here. Also a good view of the electrical connection to the brake warning light on the dash. The line uses a 9/16" connection and I believe it's manufactured by Borg Industries. Reason I say that is yesterday when I cracked it loose? I put my flare wrench on the fitting and it wouldn't budge. So I used a long (10") wrench as a lever on the 9/16" and all of a sudden it popped. 'Resistance is futile'.....lame huh? Anyway I also put a blue plastic plug in that rear fitting once the line was out.

Allan R

I really had to fight with the OEM line to get it out. Because of the angle at the back going to the brake hose, the line has to be carefully manipulated. I found that moving it forward to the engine from the prop valve gave some wiggle room to drop the line down and out by the rear of the muffler. HEY! Easy solution??? Cut the dang exhaust and there's tons of room! But nooooo, let's keep those stupid things around to make life more exciting. So after the rear is out, the front has to be wiggled back and out the back of the transmission cross brace. Take your time, try not to curse too much and try very hard NOT to bend the line coming out as you'll want to use it for a template on the new one.

So what I've got now is the old one out and the new one with it for comparison. Most of the bends and angles are pretty close to perfect.

Main connection to prop valve:



clearance around transmission brace:



to rear by control arm:



Now we get to this bad boy. Looks to me like I need to bend this sucker around the bend so it matches the OEM bend. Funny there was no instructions about this section with the new lines. Well it's ok, because wrapped in that spring it's unlikely I'll do any damage to it; just have to be patient and use even pressure. The other end of the line is still hemoraging as I took this pic.



Just after I took this, there was massive lightning, instantaneous LOUD thunder and the rain started coming in buckets! So I closed up the garage for today. With the main door closed the lighting under the car isn't all that great, even with trouble lights. So that's where things are now.

Next on the list is the front brake to disc lines, and removal of the prop valve. I had a quick look at the engine cradle and noted that one of the clips that holds the brake line is missing. So is one of the flywheel cover bolts. Just more stuff to play with. I need to start setting some deadlines to make sure everything gets done!

kitfoxdave

That is a bit odd that your bend was so far off... Mine just required a little bit of tweaking in the rear. (angles were off just enough so the flare fitting would not go...) Getting the old one out with NOTHING under the car was a PITA! once I lifted the body off the frame it went in VERY easy... (I also replaced my fuel lines and there is NO WAY to remove those in one piece that I can see!) (my body mounts were in ugly shape at the time as well)

Oops, my brake lines were from Right Stuff not Inline tube... sorry! Once I got everything straightened out by Todd it went much better!
The Inline Tube fuel lines were very nearly spot on!

Charlie Jones

Be careful of stainless bolts, GM specifies at least grade 5 bolts should be used in most locations. Not all stainless is grade 5.
A grade 5 bolt will have three hash marks on the head.

Really, stainless bolts are totally unnecessary unless you drive your car on "salted" roads in the winter.

Allan R

Good point Charlie. IMHO though most of us aren't building/restoring these old cars to drive in the winter or on salted winter roads. That said, I usually don't settle for Gr 5 bolts; I'll go Gr 8 for safety and strength. Not much difference in price either. Those suckers are almost bomb proof. I still like using OEM fasteners that have been restored above all others. I do use some cad plated bolts from time to time since my car will never be judged for perfection. A little contrast for eye candy doesn't hurt.

Charlie Jones

A lot of people think of stainless bolts as very strong. They're not!
Stainless steel is very tough, but it has a low tensile strength.
The most corrosion resistant alloys (304 ?) do not even meet grade 5 standards.
My point was, since collector cars are not subjected to corrosion, why take a chance on "soft" bolts.

Allan R

Now I understand, and agree! How's the engine for your 63 coming along?

Charlie Jones

Right now I'm getting an upholstery shop together and should be in business next week.
The 63 has taken a back seat to that right now. Hopefully the shop will bring in much needed money. However it will rob some time from the project.
If a rich uncle died and left me all his money, I could probably finish the car in 6 months or less. However, I don't have any rich uncles.

Allan R

Yeah, well it's appropriate. Today ALL the remaining brake components that needed to come off came off. Here's how the plan worked:

1. Remove the 1/2" bolt that holds the front lines to the master cylinder. That bolt is put in one ugly position. The real only saving grace was I have the inner fender liners out. That makes it easier. Sorry the pic is a little blurry, but this bolt is the one everyone seems to forget about.



2. Remove the clips and fitting connections to the RF brake line. Then undo the fitting at the proportioning valve. It was on there pretty good so I needed a snipe to bust it loose. Keep a catch pail under the prop valve so it'll catch all the fluid when the line releases. General reminder: Brake fluid is corrosive on paint and concrete.

3. Remove the LF brake line clips and fitting from the disc brake line.

4. Remove the battery cable clip and protector tube from the frame.

5. Slide the proportioning valve up and out from the frame so the brake warning sender connection can be removed. DON'T let the prop valve hang by that wire. The assembly is relatively heavy. You should now have an assembly like the one below. Note the AC symbol on the housing.



This is the back view of the prop valve mounting bracket. I have already removed one of the bolts (self tapping)



Those remaining brake lines will come off in a minute. Here are some comparison pics of the replacement front brake lines to the discs. They are very much on the money.

Right side



Left side

Allan R

I took the prop valve and cushioned it in my vise before clamping it tight. Someone had suggested that it might be made of brass and therefore soft and easy to bend. Nope - it's investment cast steel.

The master cylinder has a 9/16" line and a 7/16" line. The remaining front brake line is also 7/16". They were all a bit snug but came out without much trouble. I used some rubber plugs and a MC plug to keep the ports closed for the next step of cleanup. I also wrapped a lot of electrical tape around the sender to protect it. Now it's into the blaster. I used 2 medias. 30/60 glass to get rid of that nasty undercoating - it cut through it like butter. Then I switched to 120-150 glass and it cleaned up really nicely.

Before - note all ports on the prop valve have been plugged.


After (2 rounds of media later) The surface looks a little pitted, but I don't think it's from media blasting. Sand investment casting doesn't leave the best surfaces, and I'm sure that's what is being seen here.



The 'other side' Before:



And 'after'



Here are comparison shots of the ILT replacement lines from the prop valve to the master cylinder. Man they are almost exact!

Allan R

All those little clamps and bolts also went through the cleaning process. They looked nasty in this 'Before' pic... Notice the split fuel line hoses that are used in the clamp attached to the brake booster.


I thought it was pretty cool that all the clamps used for the brake line on the frame rail were all stamped with an anchor and OD sizing



No surprise - the same thing is on the fittings for the brake line from the prop valve to the disc brakes - just a smaller OD



Now, that clamp that attaches to the brake booster? It actually has a part number stamped onto it! Wow! Looks like new



I decided NOT to paint these parts with metal cast. Instead I wanted them to stay their natural finish so I just sprayed them with clear to give that needed protection.

These are now bagged, tagged and ready to install.



Overall a very good day in the garage. I would like to do a little bit of cleanup under the car, but it's not really high priority right now. I'll see how it goes tomorrow. At this stage of the game, ALL the new brake lines are ready to be installed. That's a huge step forward in the journey to getting this Silver Surfer back on the road!

kitfoxdave

Nice work Allen!

As far as the Stainless steel bolts go, I use them in low strength, high corrosion or high heat areas only. (until I can find a good supply of 13-8 bolts!)
Under the battery, exhaust manifolds, and valve covers. If the original bolts were decent, they got put back in. (many of them were in good shape... except under the battery area!)

Sampson

I see you are having a lot of fun with the new bead blaster! I sure wish I had bought one at the start of my deal. I'm too far along now to justify it but if I ever do another car the first thing that will go in the shop is a new blaster and compressor. I probably have spent as much in wire brushes as a blaster would have cost! Does the compressor keep up well? Parts look great by the way.

Allan R

Dave, check around your area; I have a 'Nut & Bolt Supply House' only 20 minutes away that carries everything from small to monster stuff in SS, cad, phosphate etc in all grades and head patterns. If you don't have that, maybe check out Autozone in their self help area. I've found lots of replacement bolts clips and screws there (cad/steel/phosphate) that will save a lot of time and shipping $$ and they are the proper grade/thread/length.

Yes, the blaster makes life a lot easier. I know all about the wire wheel thing - that's what I was doing before the blaster. May I suggest that even a small bench blaster is a better option than wire wheels? Wire wheels take a lot of time and they don't get to all the nooks and crannies that a blaster can. Plus the blaster allows me to change media for tough or light jobs. I also know that if wire wheels are the real only option to get the job done, it's way better than nothing, so keep up the good work!

Does the compressor keep up? You betcha! It's a 5hp 60 gallon unit that meets the blast cabinet requirements easily. See here to view the compressor. There have been a few quality control issues with the compressor that PA has warrantied with upgraded parts so I'm good with that.

69442C

Allan,

The parts and work look great as always. You could always turn the car around in the garage so the front is point toward the street, pull the front clip and then the frame can be dropped out without a lot of trouble. Then you would have a lot of room to work on a lot of things. If you moved to MD, I would be there to help too.

Brian

Allan R

Now that I have the opportunity to clean up some of the frame rails, I thought it would be a good idea to invest in another new toy. Working with a big 5 or 6 inch sander in confined space isn't really desirable, so I went on a hunting spree to get a nice right angle die grinder. Finally found one I like on sale. Prices in Canada are considerably higher than the US and we don't have Harbor Freight anywhere close, so getting this for 59.00 instead of 100.00 was a major nice score.



The sanding discs for this unit can be either a velcro or spin on. I opted for velcro mainly because they are way less money than the spin ons. The adapter set (1" 2" and 3") includes abrasives as well. Additional 30 discs are 2.99 which is perfect for my needs. This will allow me to get into even tight areas. Having a 90° tool makes the ergonomics of sanding much easier from under the car. I expect it to make a lot of mess. SAFETY NOTE: Breather mask, coveralls, hat, ear protection and safety glasses are mandatory, not options.



Here's the unit all set and ready for use with a 3" disc setup. Maximum psi is 90 and this unit has variable speed up to a max of 20,000 rpm. It's decibel rating is 85, but it sounds a lot quieter than that, especially after oiling it.

Allan R

Well that little grinder works pretty nicely! But man does it make a mess. I decided to also grind down some of the welding slag from the frame. I'll take this a little at a time till I get it ready for paint. Found a really nice Rustoleum satin black very close to Eastwoods chassis black. Price was right too.

Even with all the protective gear you'll still get pretty dirty. I looked a lot like the pics you see of the WW1 flying ace coming in for a landing - face all dirty except where the goggles and mask were.

While I was under the car I decided to pull the inspection cover. It was nasty. That crud was a good 1/2" thick in places.


I used a gasket scraper to get most of the heavy buildup off. Then I doused it with degreaser and scrubbed. Rinse. Repeat however many times needed. It really helps to work in the hot sun with the degreaser - the crud literally dissolves. Rinse with hot water from the house before rinsing with the hose. The inside of the cover didn't have much yuck in it. Just a bit by the center where the drain hole is.

Probably no one ever looks, but this part has a number molded onto it. Here it is for archive reference.



After about an hour of cleaning/degreasing over and over I used compressed air to dry the cover. I set it in the sun to dry a bit more. Now for the cool part. I found some OEM Black restoration paint that's designed for Trim so I bought a can. I know this isn't 'trim' but if it's designed to work on plastic parts that are subject to Infrared and Ultraviolet? It's GOT to work on this. The instructions say to scuff with a brillo pad for better adhesion, so I did. There were several deeper gouges on the bottom of the cover - from when the car was a DD.


Instructions for the Trim paint say to use 2-3 light coats with 10 minutes between. After 3 light coats the cover now looks like this



I like the satin finish. The paint will fully cure in 24 hours. This Rustoleum product is quick drying to the touch (15 minutes) and doesn't have a lot of fumes. The spray nozzle worked just fine and gave uniform coats. I'm pleased. I didn't paint the inside of the cover - no one's going to ever see it again for quite some time. It looks pretty good though and doesn't need any help.

Wanna see what's coming out next?? It's even nastier. I think I might hit it with brake cleaner before attempting to remove it. That's 41 years of accumulated yuck coming at ya

kitfoxdave

Nice yuck picture... really clean compared to mine! I pulled the engine and went through 4 cans of degreaser before you could vaguely tell it looked kind of like there might be an engine under all that gunk! I am sure you will have it nice and shiny in no time... and Mr Clean will look filthy by comparison!

1971cutlas

Allan, MAW ,pull that motor and strip it down ,get er hot tanked,rebuilt,resealed.and forget about it for another 40 years !!!

oldsguybry

The sludge on my engine is at least an inch thick .

Allan R

NOT to leave well enough alone. You'll see soon enough...

Had some errands to run this morning so I didn't get around to this until the afternoon. There should be some listing in the CSM that tells what size the bolts and nuts are on the solenoid connection to the starter.

The CSM says to note the position of the wires on the solenoid. Sounds like a good idea because I don't want to end up hooking it up backwards and spinning the starter gear the wrong way. Best thing I could do was take a picture. I must have thousands of pics of this car during it's various phases of being worked on. I was actually pretty surprised to see the solenoid connections were dry!



I'm thinking that battery cable also has a ground lead going to the block with that other wire? Have to check. I'd like to clean up those wires too, or replace them if required.



Oh! Just about forgot to mention. The starter bolts are 9/16", but to drop the starter you also have to undo a 1/2" nut that holds the starter at the front onto a brace. Guess it's there to give a 3 point harness for the torque.

After undoing the 11/16" , 5/16" and 9/16" nuts on the solenoid, the starter came out without much effort. There isn't any issue with the exhaust because the starter is on the same side as the factory pipe for single exhaust cars.



It has it's fair share of grime on it still. Before tackling the job of getting it out, I wiped it down with shop towels as best as I could to make the job somewhat easier. As you can see, it was still a dirty job.

Allan R

I used a gasket scraper to get most of the heavy grease off the starter casing. After that it was degreaser and water rinse. It took a lot of elbow grease to get it semi clean, and special care was taken not to spray anything into the starter drive gear area.

Finally it was looking fairly clean so I stuffed the nose with the drive gear with shop towels and taped it closed. It was nicely sealed.

After cleaning it in the media blaster it looked like this

Not perfect, but much cleaner




I wasn't surprised to see the part number on it show up with great detail. I was wondering what the 2C 1 8 meant though. Could it be the production date code? 2 = 1972, C = March, 1 8 = Day? That would be really cool if it was because that's really close to the production date of my car. Anyway if anyone knows what it really means, please chime in.



I was careful not to go very heavy on the solenoid cover. I'll be taking it off anyway as part of the overhaul.

Allan R

Turns out there were 2 small openings - 1 in the barrel of the starter (close to the top of the commutator) and 1 in the side of the nose where the starter drive gear is. Not sure if that's a defect or whether it should have been plugged with goop at the factory. (There's a gob of goop on another section where the solenoid attaches. Don't know how I missed the second one, but the first one wasn't visible till I cleaned a lot of grease and crud out.

It's my take that the hole in the barrel casing was allowing moisture and oil to enter the barrel because everything in there has a layer of crud. Even worse, the media (fine glass) I was using is stuck onto almost everything in there! Dag nabbit! Last thing in the world you want in an area where there are bushings and moving parts is friction. I used compressed air to clean out the brush springs and top of the commutator, and the drive gear area. Chunks of crud were flying everywhere!

Suffice to say that there's likely enough stuff still in there to warrant a rebuild and detailed cleaning. Rebuild should not be seriously hard, just time consuming. The end cap was pretty crusty inside and the bushing looks not bad, but likely I'll replace it on general principle. I need to take the nose off to see the condition of the other bushing, but I'll bet it's similar.


After cleaning further, I can see the bushing doesn't have a smooth side wall. It also looks like there's a heavy layer of grease at the bottom that needs to be picked out. When I took out the long bolts that hold the nose to the barrel there was rust on the top of the bolt head and starting on the threads. Quick cleanup and they look almost new.



After blowing out as much crud as possible, the upper end looked like this. The commutator looks like it needs to be polished with some emery cloth. While it's out I can clean the inside of the case and check the brushes. They look really good though and shouldn't need replacing. I need to find out if these starter main bodies were painted black. Need to do some research. If anyone knows - LMK!



Noted: on the outside of the front bushing plate is a punched number 33. I have no idea what that's for.




I know there are a few places that still have very small deposits of grime, I'll get to those during the rebuild. I was not anticipating this starter would have inside corrosion, but I MAW do it now before it lets me down somewhere with no service.

Allan R

I was surprised at how easily the starter comes apart. The only bolt that gave me any headache was one of the philips head screws that holds the solenoid to the drive housing. For that I just used penetrating fluid and tapped it gently with a small hammer. Repeat process for about 2 minutes. Crank with #2 philips driver and it came loose.
There was media in the solenoid so it got blown clean with compressed air. I think I should probably take the solenoid apart and check for wear on the copper contact disc. Today was such a pleasant temperate day - note the new look steel toe boots I'm wearing..



The inside of the drive housing was nasty, so I carefully removed the little c clip that holds the metal dowel for the shift lever and tapped the pin out. Now I can clean both of them independently. The shift lever has some significant wear on the pivots for the clutch. Probably will be ok. NOTE: PUT THAT CLIP BACK ON THE PIN SO YOU DON'T LOSE IT LIKE I DID



The barrel that holds the field coils and brush assembly was next. Now you can see all the media that was still in there even after using compressed air to blow it out with the commutator still in. This took a bit of doing to clean. I started with compressed air, then moved to brake cleaner to dissolve some of the grime and flush out the crud. The catch board I had under the unit turned black very quickly. I'm pretty sure I got everything out now. I looked at the brushes and they aren't as good as I thought. At least 1/2 worn so it looks like I'm going to be buying a starter rebuild kit from NAPA



All the crud is out from the drive housing and the old grease at the bottom of both bushings has been cleaned out



Everything's cleaned now. The copper at the top of the commutator needs to be refreshed with emery cloth. There's a lot of carbon tracking on it. Now I just need the new brushes and bushings and that stupid little c clip so I can reassemble and ??paint?? this starter. I was pleasantly surprised to see how easy it is to service. The worst part is the cleaning, and that's done.

Allan R

Couldn't include this in the post above with a 5 pic limit. Here is the stamping on the OEM solenoid showing part number and some kind of code. I suppose I could blast that now and make it all pretty.

TripDeuces

You've got it bad my friend!

MDchanic

+1.

And may I just add,

Moral of the story today:

• Do not media blast anything that contains moving parts inside.
  Even if it appears to be "sealed."
  You can blast the individual parts, but not the assembly as a whole.

Also, Allan, the official recommendation for cleaning up commutators is to use a lathe, and cut the surface very slightly, but evenly, and then use a broken hacksaw blade or similar to scrape a single pass between each pair of contacts to depress the insulator slightly and make sure there is no conductive material bridging any of them.

Also, also, I would recommend disassembling the solenoid to get the grit out of there, too.
Be careful with the S screw, as it may want to break when you take the nut off.

You're doing a heck of a job!

- Eric

Allan R

Verified, as found out by experience...

Question: Would a fine flat file do the same thing? I don't have access to a lathe. I did plan to remove that carbon build up between the copper plates as it is creating a bridge right now. It's bloody hard stuff though!

I was planning to also rebuild the solenoid in lieu of the bead blasting experience. Thanks!

MDchanic

A narrow file should work, or any narrow, sharp piece of metal. You just want the insulating material to be a bit lower than the metal.

I bet you could spin that armature with a big drill and just touch the commutator with some emery cloth stretched over a very flat piece of wood.

- Eric

Charlie Jones

Allan, those brushes don't look too great to me. 50 percent or less. Brushes are cheap, buy new ones.
When I do a rebuild on a starter I always replace brushes, bushings, starter drive, and solenoid at a minimum. And I have almost 50 years of making customers happy this way.

Charlie Jones

These starters when new were painted black on the field coil housing and end cap. It was a glossier black than chassis black. The drive housings were natural die cast aluminum The solenoids were zinc plated. If I remember correctly.

Sampson

Really hard to believe that a small gas leak can lead to a discussion on starter armatures. Lots of relative maintenance to get from that end of the car to this one. Alan take it from one who has been there. It is a bear to hold that starter in position and get the bolts started from under the car. Much easier to do with the engine on a stand. Just sayin..........

Allan R

Biggest drill I have is a 1/2" hammer drill. Have to check and see if the collette will fit the shaft.

Thanks Charlie, sounds like you have a LOT of really happy customers! I plan to buy a starter rebuild kit which should have all the mentioned items except for the solenoid. I'd like to take it apart and see what shape it's in first before just chucking it. I know they can be overhauled and the secret apparently is to not break the cap when re-assembling. Only parts in there that need attention are the contact disc and plunger. I may end up with a new solenoid depending on what happens. Thanks for the tips!

You and I are on the same page...

LOL Steve you kill me I must have beefcake arms; I didn't find it difficult holding that starter in place at all. I hear you that it's easier when the engine is out though. Don't get me started there though. On close inspection of the oil pan it has been hit seriously hard on the front - enough to create quite a deep dent, and both of us know that replacing the oil pan is also a lot easier when it's on an engine stand. It might even be the source of some of the oil leaking under there. The engine may be 'related' but I'll save that for a different thread!

kitfoxdave

But you must remember to install the new wiring harness and TIGHTEN the nuts before you install the starter while the engine is out... don't ask me how I know...

MDchanic

... Which, if you're keeping track, is 19.

- Eric

Allan R

Not installing new cables, but if I need help I'll get Graeme to slide under and hold the starter whilst I tight it.

Amazing! It's that long isn't it?

Now time for a quickie because Graeme and I are heading out soon

Only had a few hours to work on the car. Zooted up with breather, coveralls, safety glasses and headed under the car. That angle grinder is making a mockery of the wire wheel technique that took forever on the rest of the front frame 2 years ago. It soon became evident that the shift linkage was going to impede my progress up the inner frame.

Yes, I know this picture is upside down....So you undo these (2) 1/2" bolts


and this 1/2" bolt (put it back together after removing the lever so you don't lose it)


and remove this cotter pin


and the linkages and mounting bracket come right off



Note where I stuck the cotter pin for safe keeping temporarily?

Allan R

Well since I know for a fact there's no moving parts inside these and having learned that valuable lesson 2 days ago... I put these through the blaster and cleaned them up. On close inspection they look like new. So I sprayed them with high heat clear engine enamel since they are close to the exhaust and they now look like this:





I'm seriously thinking of pulling the linkage from the backdrive and cleaning it up too. Shouldn't be all that hard now that the other linkages are out of there.

tecar442

Great job but you are seriously ****.

Allan R

Thanks!! I know..... but on the flip side, if I was working on someone else's car, I would give it the same dedication to details. Fortunately this isn't a daily driver that has to be done in an hour....

Charlie Jones

NAPA makes a solenoid repair kit which includes a new end cap and the contacts. Part # ECH STK15 Sells for $18.50 in the USA.