the_dude

I was hoping to do a VIN search on a 1969 Hurst Olds but every website I go to wants a 17 digit VIN. Does anyone know a good site that will let me check the number? Am I right in saying that the first part of the hardtop VINs is 344879M? The owner of the car I'm looking up said he'd get me the last 6 digits in the next few days so that make the VIN only 13 digits long?

MDchanic

A VIN search will tell you that you have an Oldsmobile (3) 442 (44) Holiday Coupe [2-Door hardtop] (87) from 1969 (9), made in Lansing, Michigan (M), and its six-digit sequential number.

You apparently know all of those things already, except for the sequential number, which is meaningless.

- Eric

the_dude

I actually want to do like a carfax search on it though. I've been in contact with someone who may very well own my dad's old '69 H/O and I was hoping to find previous owner names if at all possible.

MDchanic

Not possible.


There have been stories of people contacting their states' motor vehicle offices and being able to find out some information about previous owners, but that ability varies heavily by state, and I haven't heard of it being done in the past decade or more. For the most part, that data is either purged from the system, or considered confidential and not released.

- Eric

the_dude

That's kind of what I was affraid of. Unfortunately my dad has nothing with a VIN number on it from that car either. I have even emailed the dealership where it was sold new to see if I can get any info. on it.

MDchanic

Your dad may be able to contact the DMV and request the information for himself.

It won't be quick, and it's dependent on whether they've deleted old information, but there are occasionally legitimate needs for this information (such as settling old car theft claims), so if it's in the system, and if the request is about the registrant's own data, they may be able to do it.

- Eric

the_dude

I've even considered just calling the dealership to see if there's any chance in hell they would have a record of the last six of that VIN. I'm guessing chances are slim to none...

MDchanic

Some have been known to. Can't hurt to ask.

- Eric

jaunty75

Exactly.

The OP's question comes up often, and the answer is always the same. Forget it.

As far as a carfax-like search, those require the 17 digit VINs, so they're only good as far back as 17 digit VINs were in use, which is the early 1980s, I believe.

As far as past owners, no way. My only experience is with Ohio, but I imagine other states are similar. Ohio does have a website where you can search under title number (has to be an Ohio title) or vehicle VIN, and the VIN can be any VIN, not just the 17-digit kind.

https://ext.dps.state.oh.us/BMVOnlin...tleSearch.aspx

But all you will get for a result, if your car was ever titled in Ohio, is a history of titles for the car issued in Ohio, in what county or counties, the mileage on the car at the time, and that's it. No owner name or anything like that, I'm sure it has to do with maintaining privacy.

Your best bet to find prior owners is to work backwards from the person you bought the car from, find out who he bought the car from, then who that guy bought the car from, etc. until you hit a wall, usually because contact information has been lost or forgotten or a prior is either dead or can't be located. Or, if you're lucky, you've found the original purchaser. But for the era of greatest interest on this site, early '70s and earlier, which is now approaching 50 years ago, it's not unlikely that original purchasers will be dead or close to it.

I bought a '64 Jetstar 88 in 1991 in Ohio, and I was able to trace its ownership history back to 1980 by calling various county DMV offices in Ohio. This was before any internet searching could be done, and, as I went, I would call the title office in the county I thought the car had been sold in, and the clerk was able to look it up for me based on a title number. I ultimately found out that the original owner had bought the car in Dayton, Ohio and had kept it for 16 years, finally selling it in 1980. Between 1980 and when I bought it in 1991, it had had about 10 different owners. But I was unusually lucky in all this because the car had been originally sold and had spent its entire life in Ohio. This was also a little bit before privacy laws came about in earnest. I doubt I could do the same thing today.

joe_padavano

X2. Keep in mind that the internet didn't exist then and the records were primarily kept on paper at local DMV offices. There is no reason for anyone to spend the money to digitize these records and make them available in a national search.

jaunty75

Another good point. Vehicle titling and registrations are done at the state level, not nationally. We would need all 50 states to digitize their records, which they don't have any more, anyway, and wouldn't if they still had them.

Look at it from the point of view of the DMV. Who would make use of a database going back to the beginning of time for that state's car registrations? Very few people relative to the amount of time, effort, and cost it would take to do the job. Yes, collector car people would love to know who bought that '32 Ford Model A or that '55 Chevy Bel Air when it was new and how many owners its had along the way, but that's a miniscule number of people compared to the number of registration records that would have to be entered.

Services like carfax have been set up not to help collectors determine number of prior owners and things like that, but to help potential buyers of used cars determine what kind of service and collision history a particular car has had because they're thinking of buying it as a used car. People don't typically buy cars from the '70s and earlier (and now '80s, too, as they're all about 30 years old or more now) to use as daily-driver, so a carfax-like service for 30+ year-old cars would have a relatively limited appeal, again, compared to the cost involved in preparing the database.

joe_padavano

Especially considering that on average, there's about a 1% survival rate after 30+ years. Even if you could find the paper records, how do you know which 1% to worry about?

jaunty75

You'd have to put them all in, which means that 99, or more, out of every 100 records that were entered would be for a car that is no longer on the road and has been scrapped.

MDchanic

Also note that scanning and digitizing thousands of pounds of paper documents would be a labor- and processing-intensive activity, and even inputting and indexing old digital information (which may be on magnetic tapes, or platter-sized disks) can be quite noisome, whereas stockpiling information that started out in modern databases is probably easier than deleting it, so it's a walk in the park to accumulate CarFax data now, but a nightmare to accession data from the distant(-ish) past.

- Eric

joe_padavano

My point

CRUZN 66

I can attest to the purging process by our state DMV... I went to register and put license plates on one of my Trofeos and since I had not registered the vehicle in the past 10 years, they purged all the title information from their system... The DMV had to physically take the data from my title and reenter it into their system...

RayK

I just had a title search done on my H/O from a girl at the BMV in Ohio, and she told me they only go back 10 years for active titles because there are so many numbers. She said mine isn't even in their database it hasn't been active in so long. I know it was last registered in 1988, just had to check to make sure it was clean.

jaunty75

I don't understand. Are you thinking of buying this car, or do you already own it? If you're thinking of buying this car, it's not up to you to do a title search for past liens as the state wouldn't believe you, anyway as they have access to much more thorough title search systems than anything available to the public. They'll do their own search and make sure there are no past liens on the car. Once a state issues a clean title, that's the end of the story. You now own the car. There would be no point in going back to look for past liens as the state has already done that, and, again, they can do it better than you can.

At least, all of this was my experience in getting my '78 Toronado titled in New Mexico late last winter. I bought it out of Georgia, and it was last registered and titled in Florida and hadn't been registered and on the road in 13 years. The state DMV did the title search, which takes them only a few seconds and which made sure the Florida title that the seller had signed over to me was correct and current. Once they were satisfied, they gave me a title, I registered the car and obtained license plates, and I'm done.

RayK

It's a long story, but it's a lost title situation. I've had the car in my possession for 14 years. Bought it from a buddy of mine, who bought it from the second owner. The second owner signed and had the title notorized, however, my buddy failed to transfer it into his name. I didn't know until our transaction was completed and I went to pick up the car. So, with that being said, I've tried just about everything I knew how to do over the years, until finally, I met someone a couple weeks ago who actually works for the DMV, and she ran the vin of the car, which I could get nobody to do previously. She explained to me that the situation I'm in is considered "title jumping" and is completely illegal. That's why nobody would help me before but nobody had the decency to explain. Anyhow, there is finally a path I can take, but it involves getting the car inspected by the SHP and that's why I have to put the car back together temporarily, as the car was taken completely apart by my buddy for restoration.

MDchanic

So what you're saying is that your buddy bought the car, had the seller complete the title for transfer, including writing your buddy's name in, and then never went to DMV to put it into his own name and get his own title, so you got a title with two names on it, neither one of which was yours.

Yeah, they hate that. It means that they didn't collect sales tax and the $35 (or whatever) title fee from somebody, and nothing POs the government more than missing a chance to tax somebody. That's why, if you're not planning on actually using the car right away, it's best to get the title and the bill of sale with the "Sold to" portion blank.

In your case the solution should be simple: It's your buddy's job to go to DMV, pay the title fee and the sales tax (and, in some states, pay for one day of insurance and register the car), wait a month, get the title, and then give the signed title to you. Considering the amount of time passed, problems could include that your buddy died (in which case, my condolences), moved away (in which case it's still his job to get a title in whichever state he's in), or is a jerk.

I've had the same thing happen to me. In the pre-title days, so long as you had a chain of bills of sale, you were okay, so I didn't think anything of it, but the DMV wouldn't budge, and the title was from NH, while the seller lived in Mass, and I lived in Maine. I had to chase down the seller and make him go through the whole registration process (including insurance) in Mass, and send me a clean title. Really pissed him off, but it was his own fault.

- Eric

RayK

The long part of the story is my buddy lost the title before he had it changed over, and he isn't living in the country any longer he lives "down under". I contacted the previous owner on three occasions, as he told me the very first time I talked with him it wouldn't be a problem, he would go with me to get a new title and get everything taken care of, told me to contact him again in a couple weeks, which I did. The second time I talked to him, he didn't have time, told me to call him back in another couple weeks. I did, and the third time he was a bit more hostile, told me that the car still legally belonged to him and he could take it back, free of charge if he so desired, but he wouldn't do that, but took my number and told me he was in the middle of some business deals and he had to call me to let me know when he would be available, which of course never happened. His wife contacted me and wanted to buy the car back, I told her no, and that was that. So now, I am in the situation I'm in without a title.

jaunty75

There are lots of morals in your story, but I find this the most interesting. If the wife's offer was at all reasonable, I would have sold her the car back to be rid of the headache. Take the money and get something else.

Heck, for all you know, since the title was never transferred, as far as the state DMV is concerned, her husband is still the car's owner. The husband might have been (and might still be) able to get a replacement title (as people do lose them from time to time, and states have a process an owner can follow to get it replaced), and then he could claim you stole the car from him. No car is worth all of the problems this one has caused and is still causing.

I'm glad the highway patrol inspection can be a way to a solution.

I'm surprised the original owner was willing to speak to you at all. He was under no obligation to work with you. He had done everything right when he sold the car, and it was your so-called "buddy" (who doesn't sound like much of a buddy to me for all the problems he's caused you) who failed to follow up and get the title work properly taken car of. As much as the original owner has acted like a jerk, it is really your "buddy" who should be the target of your ire. Since he was never able to provide you with a title to the car, he should have given you your money back.

allyolds68

He was really pissed because not only did he have to pay to register and insure it in MA, he also had to pay all the yearly excise tax that for all the years it was registered in NH and he lived in MA. I had a similar thing happen with my car because the kid I bought it from signed the title when it bought it but never registered it. In order to get a clear title to sign over to me he had to register it in his name first. He also had to pay the previous five years excise tax (how long he owned it). I paid $2k for the car and it cost him $1300 to get me a clean title.

jaunty75

He would have had to pay that $1300 no matter what. He owed tax payments to the state for every year he owned the car, and there is really no connection between his having to settle his back taxes problem and your buying the car from him. At some point, now or 20 or 50 years from now, he or his estate would have wanted to sell the car, and those back taxes would have been due and payable. I would not think of it as him having to "pay" $1300 to get you a title. He had to pay $1300 to get himself a title that he could then sign over to you.

allyolds68

You are correct, but if he had not signed the title, as long as I (or anyone else buying the car) was not trying to register it in MA, he never would have gotten hit with the excise tax bill. I ended up registering it in NY ten years later (after moving here) and I never paid excise tax for the car in MA.


You have to be very careful in MA (and I suppose any other state with yearly excise tax) because if you buy a car that hasn't been registered in a while you have no idea how much excise tax may be owed. If it's registered you know it's fairly up to date with excise tax because MA won't renew the registration without paying excise tax

RetroRanger

My buddy bought a small trailer from a mass resident who bought it new in NH and never used other than storage in NH so never regd and is small enough it either doesnt have (or require) a title.

anyway mass wouldnt let my bud reg it til the previous owner paid sales tax and something else (must have been excise tax)...naturally the last owner was like im not paying for something never bought or used in mass...long story short he had to reg as homemade trailer to get mass to take his money.

you would think if mass wanted the cash they would just flag his drivers license or reg and cant be renewed until past fees are paid.

allyolds68

I had something very similar happen with a boat I was going to buy. The owner was from MA. It was registered in ME with the MA address. I don't think he ever paid sales tax or yearly excise tax. I had put $100 down and then called the Registry and found out it was going to cost me like $5k to register a $5k boat. I was lucky that the guy gave me my $100 back.

In MA you don't have to register the vehicle to title it so there's no registration to suspend if you don't pay the excise tax. I think eventually they do flag your license when you renew it but that's like every ten years. I don't think they suspend your license for not paying excise tax.

edzolz

Does your state have a bonded title plan? Here in Texas, you can get a bond on the car, pay the fee, and after certain period, if no one claims the car you can get a title free and clear.

allyolds68

So I apologize for getting way off topic.

Another way to try to find the old VIN number when your dad owned the car is to contact your insurance agent. They seem to keep old paperwork around longer than they should.

If you find the VIN, the H/O Club of America has all the VIN numbers for the 69 H/O's. They track ownership of all the ones they know about. I doubt they will give you the info if you're not the current owner but they might at least tell you if they are tracking it in their database. If it's not in their database they will likely add it with the ownership stopping with your dad as the last known owner