scrappie

So I just want to be sure I understand this: Im gathering parts to restore a 1970 442 w-30 4spd with 3:91 rear. So all questions refer to this car. There was no pulleys or water pump or fan on front of engine, the core support was there but no radiator, shroud or core support top plate. The only things that I have are the PS pump and alternator assemblies which I have mocked up. I found a 404847 X water pump and attached that also. I now have to find the two remaining pulleys for the water pump and crankshaft and make sure everything lines up.
The HD cooling has really got me mixed up. From what I have learned here, a car with HD cooling would get the same water pump as an ac car? among other things?
Is the only way to know if HD cooling by original build sheet?
Is it the rear gear ratio that determines if the car would get HD cooling?
Would the radiator on this w-30 be 3 or four core?
Would there be a shroud and clutch fan?
I assume the water pump and crank pulley both would be 2 groove and would the factory stampings be KM (water pump) and KJ Crank?

I have been getting conflicting info and my ASM is barely legible. I just looked at some pix of a survivor 70 442 and had no shroud or clutch fan but both pulleys were two groove. The Parts place reproduces some pulleys along with others, the advertise the KN and KM for water pump and they have a crank pulley also but don't say stamping. I prefer original parts if available and affordable but with pulleys...a pulley is a pulley if the same size? Ill try to get pics of later. Thanks for any help and sorry to beat a dead horse.

70Post

The HD cooling has really got me mixed up. From what I have learned here, a car with HD cooling would get the same water pump as an ac car? among other things?

Not sure.....but with HD cooling AND your 455 motor, YOUR CAR would have come with the 404847 pump (which you now have). I say "not sure" because a 350 Cutlass w/AC may not have come with a HD water pump...might have used a water pump with a smaller inlet (lower rad hose attaches to the inlet).

Is the only way to know if HD cooling by original build sheet?

No....if you know the 3.91 rear is original to the car then HD cooling would have been required on the car (mandatory option).

Is it the rear gear ratio that determines if the car would get HD cooling?

See above. On your car, YES, the rear gear determined the build w/HD cooling BUT the rear gear isn't the ONLY way it could have been equipped w/HD cooling. If the car was an AC car it would have had a 3.23 rear gear from the factory AND would also have been built w/HD cooling.


Would the radiator on this w-30 be 3 or four core?

4 row core on your car with a "CI" stamped filler side tank and a "IF" tank on the other end.

Would there be a shroud and clutch fan?

Yes - both would be on this car.

I assume the water pump and crank pulley both would be 2 groove and would the factory stampings be KM (water pump) and KJ Crank?

No - your car would have been equipped with a 3 row crank pulley ("KC" stamping) and a 3 row water pump pulley ("KF" stamping). These are also found on AC-equipped cars and fairly common so you should be able to find clean originals. I believe these pulleys were used because of their diameters (which affects the speed of the water pump) which are different from the "KM" and "KJ" pulley diameters.

RocketDevo

Just to add a little clarification on a couple things. The
"KM" water pump pulley is a offset 2 groove pulley to work with the longer shaft water pump on W cars with no AC. There are only 2 different water pumps in 1970; 404584 standard non AC, and 404847 AC, HD and W car applications. AC cars had 3 grooves for the AC setup, they needed to produce another pulley "KM" for the water pump to work with essentially the same AC water pump.
There are varying degrees of HD cooling. The top set up was the V01 option, that was mandatory on all W cars with the 3:91 gear ratio. You could however order HD cooling for any car. HD cooling could have been a 3 core, but if you had a 4 core you would have received all the other compliments of HD cooling. The "Y72" is another form of HD cooling. There are two different terms used back then keep in mind. One was HD cooling, and the other was HD radiator. All AC cars came with HD cooling in the form of a 3 core. If it was a 442 it received a 4 core. A W30 with 3:42 gears did not received a 4 core rad or fan shroud by the way.
Hope this helps.

joe_padavano

All A/C and HD cooling A-body cars got the same 5.6" long water pump. Standard cooling A-body cars used the 5.1" pump. The inlet diameter was the same for all within a given year. The parts book lists the pulley part numbers. Pulley listings for 1970 A-body are as follows:

391113 - single groove, standard cooling, short water pump
405462 - two groove, standard cooling, short water pump (7 5/16" dia)
405461 - two groove, HD cooling (V01), W-30, W-32, W-32 without A/C
399404 - three groove, all A/C or HD gen and cooling (6 1/8" dia)

Here's where it gets a little interesting. The 1970-72 full size cars (D88 and Ninety Eight) used the 5.6" water pump so for non-A/C installations (yeah, try to find a Ninety Eight from that vintage without air), the full size cars used the same 405461 two groove pulley as the non-A/C W-cars in 1970.

70Post

Rocket Devo said:

"You could however order HD cooling for any car. HD cooling could have been a 3 core, but if you had a 4 core you would have received all the other compliments of HD cooling."



Which means???

>You got the setup as shown in Section 6-1, Page 93 Lower Left hand corner of the page?? Note: this setup is shown for HD Generator and HD Cooling w/power steering

>To me it means you got the 3 ROW "KF" WATER PUMP " PULLEY AND 3 ROW "KC" CRANK PULLEY, not two row?



Joe Padavano said:

"405461 - two groove, HD cooling (V01), W-30, W-32, W-32 without A/C"

VO1, according to the notes to the radiator chart in Section 11, Page 50 means a HD 2.70 inch core RADIATOR, not HD Cooling.

Trying to make sense of the two statements in bold/italics I show above.

scrappie

scrappie

Thanks for your input gentlemen. My head is ready to explode.

joe_padavano

You're right, the "HD Cooling" was incorrectly added on my part. Should have been W cars and V01 without the extra words, per the diagram. Sorry about that.

costpenn

Thanks for posting that chart Joe. My 72 was originally equipped - supposedly - with the set up listed in the bottom right frame. P/S, HD cooling/generator, no AC so it uses the forward groove only on the PS pump, and neither of the front grooves on the WP & crank pullies. It looks strange. And, the car I'm currently working on has another strange combo - 70 442 with AC, and no P/S - your chart lists that as possibility.

RocketDevo

To elaborate a little further, I was conveying how Olds uses some of their terms loosely. As far as the water pump pulley is concerned, without AC and the 404847 pump there was no need for it to be 3 grooved. Olds used the offset 2 groove "KM" pulley with that pump. In relation to HD cooling, Olds uses HD cooling term as the Y72 option. What I am saying is HD cooling was standard on all AC cars, although it was not stated. HD cooling was mandatory on some applications such as "V01", but HD cooling Y72 could be order with any vehicle. HD cooling could be in a 3 or 4 core set up. The Y72 package gave you a 4 core, fan shroud, 404847 water pump, and clutch fan. The V01 gave you the same items but it is not refer to as HD Cooling, it is more commonly refer to as HD radiator. They are essentially the same difference. To demonstrate this, the rad tag code on the Y72 package is "ED". The rad tag code on V01 is "EC". The number on the bottom of the rad tag code is "74" for both of them, which essentially makes them identical radiators.
I hope I have not muddied the waters further.

scrappie

Good stuff RocketDevo, all coming together now thx for your knowledge on the subject.