Kraven Moorehead

My son acquired a 69 442 from his Grandpa (see my other thread/s) and we have been breaking down the front end to rebuild it with fresh PST polyurethane parts and a disk brake setup. The problem now is that this particular 442 is the "Holiday edition" with a bench seat and column shift automatic which I rather liked. Now he has it in his mind that he wants to convert it to a manual four speed . I figured I could easily talk him out of it but he's adamant. He said to me; "Dad, what is a 442?" I had no retort.
My questions to you good folk are: Have any of you ever done this before? and if so. what is the difficulty level? I'm thinking about an 11 on a 10 scale. I can fabricate and weld. I went ahead and bought a bell housing (before it could get away) and priced some pedals that were reasonable. Any input is appreciated. Geeez, kids these days .

PS the 400 turbo that is in it is shot and needs rebuilt.

joe_padavano

First, there is no such thing as a "holiday edition". Olds offered a body style called the Holiday Coupe, which was simply their marketing name for the 2dr hardtop body. There is no relationship between the seat style and the body style.

Second, in 1969, the base interior for every 442 was bucket seats, no console, and a three speed manual trans with floor shifter. The bench seat was a $68.46 credit option under RPO A52. The automatic trans was also an option under RPO M40. When you ordered that, you got a column shifter, no matter what seats you had. If you wanted a floor shifter, you had to also order RPO D55 (which obviously was not available with the bench seat).

Reproductions of the bucket seat brackets and console brackets are available from all the Olds specialty houses. These have to be welded to the floor pan. Correct A-body bucket seats bring stupid money for even seats in horrible condition. Expect to pay $400 for a pair of crappy buckets, then another $1000 for repro foams, upholstery, and all the small parts you need to put them together. Consoles and floor shifters are also expensive, and MT consoles and shifters are even more so.

Your biggest problem is that if the car came from the factory with an automatic, Olds did not drill the crank for the pilot bearing needed for a manual trans. There are aftermarket solutions here, but it is yet another complication.

Use the SEARCH function. There are HUNDREDS of threads about both these topics. The total cost to install buckets, console, and manual trans will easily run $3000 or more, just for parts. If you are paying someone to do it, labor will be a LOT more.

MDchanic

... Or skip the buckets and console, and just install the 4-speed with the bench seat.

A bench seat offers far more options for romance than do buckets, anyway.

You'll still have to have the crank drilled (or take a less-satisfactory option) and set up the clutch linkage, but it's a LOT cheaper and easier.

- Eric

Gary M

The crank if not drilled for a manual transmission is a big obstacle. Mondello sells a bearing ( but if you call the shop that Lynn Welfigger owns you'll get screwed, Ask anyone here) that you can use if you cut off some of the transmission front shaft but that has mixed reviews. I am working on a auto to 4 speed conversion and chose to rebuild a motor with the crank drilled. That route is correct way but very expensive.

Some things you will need include:
pedals and pedal pads.
all linkages from pedals to clutch including Z bar, clutch rods, pivot mounts for Z bar ( does your block have a threaded hole for the Z bar mount?), neutral start switch ( mine cost 100.00) and wires, bell housing, flywheel, clutch fork, clutch, throw out bearing and bolts, transmission ( bought mine from 5 speeds.com, brand new Muncie for around 2300.00 - if you buy used and have rebuilt it's still gonna hurt cost wise), shifter, mounting plate and handle (for console is different from non console handle) if using a console ( console adds another 3-600.00), may need driveshaft if length changes, you don't need to but may want the speedo not to have the indicator since floor sticks did not have that( RedLine in California can rebuild the speedo and remove the PRND123 from the speedo), the steering column will have the ugly shifter handle mount unless you change it out, obviously seats ( buy some that aren't rusted out frame wise), I bought new reproduction seats from thepartsplace I think at over 2000.00 but if you add up cost of old ratty seats plus all that is needed to make them look new, it's not far off. I'm sure I missed some things but good luck.

joe_padavano

It's for his kid...

Kennybill

Hmm, username "Kraven Moorehead," there's a joke in this somewhere.

MDchanic

Nobody needs a clutch lockout switch. Nobody who knows how to drive, anyway.


Just layin' out the facts. That may push the decision in one direction or the other...

Well, exactly. And bench seats do make some things easier than buckets do.

- Eric

Gary M

[QUOTE=joe_padavano;1024855]It's for his kid...[/QUOTE

Warning- mopar reference ahead-

Reminds me of Graveyard Cars episode where Mark Worman gets into a car ( there's his daughter and three shop guys standing there) and Mark says " time to turn on the panty droppers" (parking lights). One of the guys says " whose panties you trying to drop here" ? Mark very quickly says "nobody's". Awkward. LMAO.

Gary M

"Nobody needs a clutch lockout switch. Nobody who knows how to drive, anyway."

im putting it in in case I ever let you drive my car Eric.

MDchanic

I dunno. When I was a kid, I ripped all that stuff out of every car I got, along with seatbelt and key-in buzzers.

Now I'm more selective because so many things are interconnected through the computers, but I disable the same things whenever I can.

- Eric

Gary M

You put in the neutral safety switch for the smuck at the garage that you drop off your car for inspection or repair so he doesn't mess up your ride if he fumbles.

MDchanic

NOBODY other than my wife drives my car. (My wife may not be able to turn a wrench, but she can drive darned well).

I do not park in commercial garages.

I do not bring my car anywhere to be serviced.

I always depress the clutch pedal and check the gearshift position before starting.

Therefore, I don't need a nanny switch.

Same goes for seatbelt warnings. I always put it on, but if I don't for a minute, there's a good reason, and I don't need to listen to that #&^$ beeping.

Same goes for key-in warnings. I know where my keys are. Sometimes I leave them in the car. If I do, it's on purpose, and I don't need to hear that stupid sound whenever the door is open.

- Eric

Gary M

i sold a new Ranger pickup once after a few months of the damn seat belt warning driving me crazy. At that time I did not want to wear a belt and unlike most cars it would not stop dinging until I buckled up. It was a POS anyway.

Koda

A couple thoughts.

One, I cranked my old van a month ago in gear because I was tired. It moved about 3 inches before I reacted and let off the key. Big deal. No clutch safety switch.

Two, Kid needs to not sass his old man. Remind him that automatic 442s are real 442s, otherwise they would not have been made that way. The definition to which he was erroneously referring of the 4 barrel, 4 speed, and dual exhaust applies ONLY to 1964 models. The definition was tweaked in 65 to 400 engine, 4 barrel, dual exhaust, and it increasingly became irrelevant as the 60s wore on and no one cared, became totally irrelevant in the mid 70s when they had no performance at all, and became downright stupid with the "4 cylinder, 4 valves per cylinder, 2 pipes" BS in the 90s that took it to Richard Simmons level of fruitiness.

It is a bad idea to try to convert this car to a manual. You will be throwing money away, and it reeks of someone aspiring above their station "oh, I can't afford a manual transmission car so I converted this one." That is obviously not the case here, but it will look like it. If the kid is adamant, tell him that he can sell the current 442 then buy a manual one. Teenage boys need to be reminded they have dumb ideas on a regular basis and here is a good chance. A less dumb idea is a buckets, console, floor shift automatic conversion, but everyone does those.

Rock the bench, get road head. Enough said.

3. Safety buzzers on seatbelts should be unplugged. Key ones probably as well.

VC455

I understand the desire to convert to a gearbox. Every decent car I've owned since the 60s has had a gearbox. I elected to convert my Vista Cruiser to stick shift and the costs referenced are in the ballpark.

It sure is fun to drive and it is easier for me to control wheel spin at launch with a box.

I don't think any of the processes are difficult. The most difficult would be removing the engine to get the crank out. And even that is just a process. Follow the steps in the workshop manual and it takes the guesswork out of it. You can rent the hoist and other specialized tools you may need.

Sometimes we build up the difficulty in our minds. As an example, some people think welding is a 10 (difficult) on a 0-10 scale, but the OP realizes it is not.

Kraven Moorehead

It's cool. I'm not a prude. He's gonna throw down sooner or later. These times we live in, along with what they teach them in school, one can only hope it will be with a female

Kraven Moorehead

there is no such thing as a "holiday edition"
Right, I remember this from our last go round. The seats aren't an issue. We are both good with the bench. The thing that's gonna keep us out of the manual business is the pilot bearing. It ain't happenin. We'll be sinking a grand into the turbo 400 whether he likes it or whether he don't

Kraven Moorehead

Duly noted

Kraven Moorehead

Yeah, what you said. I was attempting to get some information on the difficulty of making the swap. I googled it but nothing relevant came up. I figured the bell crank would be the hardest part but the pilot bearing is what is gonna nix this deal. He actually likes the bench seat. Go figure.

MDchanic

If it were me, I would be inclined to stick with the current setup for the time being, buy a used, working TH400 for a reasonable price, rather than having that one rebuilt (yours may have a problem, but they are generally bulletproof, and it shouldn't be hard to pick up a reliable one), install it, and run the car, keeping my eyes open for the remaining manual transmission swap parts when they pop up at good prices.
If and when you need or want to pull the motor somewhere down the road, that would be the time I would pull the crank and send it out to have the pilot hole bored.
Then, when you had the parts, the time, and the inclination all at the same time, you could install the manual transmission, and if those things never happened, you could sell off the parts, and be no worse than you had before.

But I do agree that because of the complexity and expense, now is not the time to set up a young person's car with a 4-speed (unless, of course, he wants to work two jobs, save the money, buy the parts, and then get your help with the installation, in which case, I'd be impressed and help him out).

- Eric

Kraven Moorehead

I like the way you think and we are going to pull the engine anyway for no other reason than to clean it (and the engine compartment) and maybe put a new timing chain on it. I've never had any luck with used transmissions (I'm 0 for 3). I'm of the mind that if it's out, there's a reason. A thousand is pricey for a rebuild but this guy's not shady, stands behind his work and builds it like you want it . So far the boy has paid for everything and I just direct him as well as do some of the work. Everyone is biased toward their kid of course but he has always been a worker. Even so, I don't think he will want to put the money into it that would be required for the swap.

Kennybill

MAW, Might As Well, freshen the engine while it's out will at least new rings and bearings plus valve job and seeing how the crankshaft is out MAW machine it for a pilot bearing. This way if later on he wants to go manual transmission it'll be easier plus it's a good selling point if you get rid of the car. Jmo.

Tedd Thompson

A kid sells his first car? I always thought kids wrecked their first car, mine did and so did three of my grand kids.. Maybe I'm just pessimistic.... Tedd

Kennybill

Ted, you've got to think positive. It's a 442, what could possibly go wrong.

Kraven Moorehead

You ever have one machined for a pilot bearing? If so, about what does that run?

Kraven Moorehead

You just had to bring that up didn't you?

oldsconv

On a separate subject, I think it's great that your son likes old cars. Most young kids, including mine, would rather have a modern car. It is true, that a 4 speed swap is very involved, but it would be a great father son project. It may affect the cars value, but if done with all factory looking changes, value may be up not down. My dad and I did one in my Chevelle and it was fun. And there's nothing like banging your own gears. Granted, we had no pilot drilling to deal with, which adds time/complexity, but we did it in a weekend since I collected all the big and small parts and clips, bolts, etc. beforehand and was all ready to go.

Koda

He should naturally have more respect as it's an old car. However, that talk should be had with him. It won't stop as fast, be as reliable, be as well mannered, and protect him in a crash like a newer car would. A ten year old car has most of the features new ones do for safety, 20 has some, but 50....it has a couple.

Also, there's theft. These cars are easily stolen, and, along with whatever features you care to install to prevent that, the number one feature is: don't go stupid places, to do stupid things, at stupid times, with stupid people. The car could get stolen and leave him stranded, or he could get carjacked.

Both of those put together means that he should not take that car everywhere as a daily driver all the time. Be sure to plan alternatives ahead of time, as teenage kids interpret looking out for their safety as the worst trampling on personal freedom since the slave trade.

I still have my first car, it was also my granddad's. It got stolen from me while I was in school, and I recovered it with very little damage. One of the luckier moments of my life.

Kraven Moorehead

We've already had "the talk". He knows it's not a daily driver and there are places you don't go with it. He's a reasonable kid (for the most part). I plan on looking into insurance for it and it will have some sort of anti-theft device. That being said, any car is easy to steal if you have the tech. You are indeed lucky to get your car back before it was broken down and sold off

Kraven Moorehead

If I do it, it will look nothing less than factory.

Kennybill

Getting a crankshaft machined for a pilot bearing (manual) isn't very costly. Around my area, N.E. Ohio, it's about $60 to $80. All the machine shops are in cahoots around here. They all send the crankshafts out to be machined. There's a Pittsburgh machine shop that's big on doing crankshafts and their truck hits all the local shops picking up and bringing back crankshafts once a week. Take your crankshaft to your local machine shop have him mic it to make sure its good and get everything done at once. Jmo.

Kraven Moorehead

Sounds like a winner. I'll make some calls. I definitely want a neutral safety switch too. I found out today that they make a kit that has the "Z" bar, pedals and rods for about $300.00. The only issue now (besides money) is, where do I mount the ball that goes on the block? It may already be threaded, If not, I could weld it to a piece of plate and drill/tap. the block looks pretty beefy in that area. Famous last words

MDchanic

When you do, here are two drawings for the machinist - either one will work fine for the project:

crank20dimentions1.jpg

olds-crank-pilotbearing-diagram.jpg

- Eric

Kraven Moorehead

How dare you cast aspersions on my good name?

Kraven Moorehead

Heyyyyy, that's cool. Thanks a bunch. Bottom one looks "easier". Now to move this to my printer.

Kennybill

I always had a bench seat car when I was---young.

Jabenge

I believe I already have all these parts for my 1970 besides the hurst stick that offsets over into my console I am just looking for videos or other info to actually achieve it so I can study up before I attempt it. Thanks for the info

Tedd Thompson

You might want to make your own new post this one is three years old and most won't read to the bottom and find your hijacked question.... Tedd

oldsdriver1218

I don't know if Bernard mondello can help but cant hurt to ask its a shame what is going on at that other mondello place LYNN WELFIGGER destroyed the reputation