dennis_30281

If you are doing a frame off restore i.e. new paint, overhauled eng, trans and rear end, suspension, everything! Can you legally by Georgia State law claim that the car has "0" miles on it when the resto is done. Talking about a 1962 Starfire.
Thanks Dennis

joe_padavano

In just about any state that I've looked at, the mileage starts when the car is delivered by a registered manufacturer. Laws don't recognize a "frame off" (which can mean different things to different people) as a new build. Either the mileage on the odometer correctly reflects mileage since built originally or you certify that the odo does not reflect actual mileage. Those are pretty much your legal options. Frankly, if someone told me a car had "zero miles" after a rebuild, I'd say they were pegging the BS meter. First, you aren't replacing EVERY SINGLE PART. Metal parts (like the frame and suspension arms) are subject to fatigue loading, which can lead to cracks. So those part's DON'T have "zero miles", as an example. Did you use a brand new block casting? Brand new crank? Brand new rear axles?

Should I go on?

MDchanic

If you want legal advice, you need to consult an attorney.

- Eric

Gary M

All the 72's I bought end up with mileage exempt on the titles. I tried to get them to put the mileage on but they would not. That is in Missouri.

oldcutlass

A lot of states are mileage exempt after so many years.

MDchanic

Generally ten.

- Eric

Gary M

So maybe you could look into if it's ok to put a speedo in with zero miles to make it easier to track miles on the restore. Keep the one that you take out? Look at your title to see if mileage is shown on it or EXEMPT. Who knows if the speedo in it now is original or correct after all these years. The reason they stopped putting it on titles IMO.

CRUZN 66

10 Years here in New York for title purposes... However, "ALL" vehicles have mileage recorded for inspection purposes regardless of age... If you try to have a vehicle inspection and the mileage entered into the inspection system is lower then the previous year, it will be rejected...

joe_padavano

But...

The whole issue here is, does a "frame off" restoration (whatever that means) justify saying that the car is brand new? My whole point is that obviously it does not.

oldcutlass

I agree, but there's nothing wrong with starting the clock over if you want. Just don't go around saying it was an original low mileage car.

MDchanic

I'm more familiar with instrument restoration in the motorcycle world than the car world (and maybe it's a more commonly needed service, as m/c instruments are out in the weather, rather than inside under a roof), but I know that if you send a speedometer out to be restored, you are given the choice of having it returned to you with the same mileage, or reset to zero.

Of course, with bikes, there is a greater chance that a speedo will be non-original, and the mileage reflected will be inaccurate (headlights are routinely destroyed in crashes, and on older bikes were often replaced with units from different models, and even makes, to get 'er back on the road), so knowing the "real" mileage is more shaky, and this may make resetting to zero more acceptable. Also, motorcycle restorations often DO replace every wear part on the bike, leaving only the frame and most basic castings original.

Overall, I would agree with Joe's sentiment that if it's not a NEW car, resetting the odometer to zero (or to any other number below the actual mileage) is questionable. If you've disassembled the ENTIRE car, and replaced or carefully inspected EVERY part, I guess I could give you a pass.

- Eric

joe_padavano

Agreed, as I have done many times myself.

joe_padavano

That's not quite my sentiment. As I just noted, I have no issue with resetting the odo to zero after a restoration. Every state issued title I've ever seen has a place where you either certify that the mileage reading is correct for the vehicle or not. I'm not trying to hide the fact that the car had high mileage and was restored; I'm only resetting to zero for my personal use.

While I am admittedly reading a lot into the OP's question, when one starts asking about the LEGAL ability to do something like this, the cynic in me starts to raise red flags. As I've noted a few times above, even a museum quality body off resto does NOT create a "brand new" car. Many critical structural items are subject to fatigue loading and eventual cracking or other deterioration. Those parts are not typically replaced during such a resto, so any implications that a car like this is essentially "brand new" are untrue. The parts that were not replaced with brand new do not have "zero miles" on them, which was the OP's question.

VI Cutty

What's wrong with just saying "Zero miles on a complete restoration, odometer rest to 0"?

joe_padavano

Not a thing.

anthonyP

In NJ, the mileage is recorded and shown on the the title, no matter the age of the vehicle. I would say the odometer is never lowered or reset to zero, no matter the circumstances. In many states that have an exempt code on the title for the mileage, it is recorded whenever then registration is renewed, and even though it reads exempt on the current and subsequent titles, the mileage is recorded in the DMV database.

oldcutlass

That does not apply to Antique/ mileage exempt vehicles.

oldcutlass

In Texas you have 4 choices, the actual mileage, not actual mileage, exceeded mechanical limits (rolled over), or exempt. The law applies only if you knowingly attempt to deceive by misrepresentation of facts.

Gary M

So, the answer is, no you can't or in good conscience call it new.
To save possible issues at the inspection station and on the odometer statement part of the transfer documents, just keep the same odometer reading but note it on the receipts you get at rebuild time. Any past receipts will then better support the historic upkeep of the car making the value reflect a more legidamate timeline of the cars life. Use miles since frame off restoration and have all supporting documents. I know I prefer to have piece of mind that any car I buy has not been used as a taxi and the frame may have a million miles of stress on it.

MDchanic

Yes there is, genius.

You posted 49 CFR § 580.5, a subsection of the Part 580 of the Code of Federal Regulations that describes Federal requirements for disclosure of odometer readings when transferring motor vehicles.
580.5 describes the specific requirements for disclosure of odometer information, essentially laying out what the blanks on the title transfer form have to say, and how they should be filled in.

If you were to look at all 17 Subsections and 5 Appendices of Part 5880, and you had your reading glasses on, you would encounter § 580.17, "Exemptions," which states (among other provisions) that:
"(a) A transferor or a lessee of any of the following motor vehicles need not disclose the vehicle's odometer mileage:...
... (3) A vehicle that was manufactured in a model year beginning at least ten years before January 1 of the calendar year in which the transfer occurs..."

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

Go back to law school.

- Eric


ps: as I advised the OP (who has not since returned to this thread) at the beginning of this thread, if you want legal advice, consult an attorney. This is why.

Gary M

Sure would be nice if they could write those law books so you don't have to read forever to get an answer. Lawyers are paid by the hour though aren't they.

MDchanic

Laws (and, as in this case, regulations) are written by lawyers, who are trained and paid to think in a linear, logical manner. A law or rule is often written exactly like computer code, which is also a logical exercise, and must be read in full, including all associated definitions and references to other laws, which are essentially analogous to subroutines that may be called on by a computer program. If the law says "... in order to be justified under this law, circumstances must meet the standards of Law XXX, subsection aaa," you'd darned well better find a copy of Law XXX, because the details spelled out there may make the actual effect of the law completely different than what a cursory reading would make it appear.

Then, especially in commercial law, there are all of the traditional understandings and subsequent court interpretations...

And, no, I am not an attorney.

- Eric

Gary M

I used to have to try and decipher the D.O.T. Regulations at work and damn near needed a seat belt on my office chair. Those damn books would lead you from section to section till you forgot what your original question was. They would often find me in the fetal position on the floor.

MDchanic

Agreed. I've had to look for a few things in DOT rules, myself, a few times. Impossible.

- Eric

MDchanic

You posted inaccurate information, were corrected by Eric, then contradicted him, providing evidence that was barely tangential to your claim.

We all make mistakes, but persisting in them after being corrected is considered to be inappropriate in this forum, where we value accuracy to a somewhat obsessive degree.

When I am facing someone who is presenting false information, in spite of having been corrected, then I am arrogant.
When I am wrong (as I sometimes am), then I am humble and admit it.

- Eric

Gary M

The OP is out driving his " new" 62 and we're in here having a food fight with our eggs and bacon. 🤔

joe_padavano

I suspect the OP hasn't come back to this thread because he didn't get the answer he wanted...

Gary M

The website that offers the info Tirekicker relied on to make his case only seems to quote parts of what is needed to get an accurate answer and asks for money donation to boot. Nice of Tirekicker to try and help but as Eric says the info passed along is unfortunately incorrect. I've been there more than I care to admit.

joesw31

The info that Tirekicker provided is not accurate, however, didn't list the entire law. However, provided some guidance that there are Statutes out there that may need to be followed. So, in reality Tirekicker, and Eric provided excellent information.

Gary M

If the OP has or is planning all the stuff he said he may realize the amount of money required to-have that done- usually is more than the car is worth without some way of justifying the value needed to come out on top. (Like claiming new). I sold one for thousands less than invested and later bought one for half the seller had invested. Even if you could legally claim "new" not many buyers would go for the claim.

Gary M

With all the input and efforts, you end up pointed in the right direction. Awesome people and site. Occasionally a little drama mixed in for good measure.

MDchanic

A segment of a rule or a statute is not the whole statute, and, as in this case, can give the reader with no other information an impression that is the opposite of the truth.
For example, if I said that the law states that intentionally killing a person is a Class A felony, punishable by life without parole or the death penalty, that would be true, but it would neglect the part of the law that states that it is not a crime to intentionally kill somebody if you are in reasonable fear of your life or that of another, and have no ability to retreat.

Or, you can say that in the 1960s, Fullsize Oldsmobiles came with big blocks, while A-bodies came with small blocks. It's more or less true, but it's actually misleading and false, at least if you own a Jetstar or a H-O.

- Eric

oldcutlass

Actually the info Tirekicker provided is correct for late model cars and that is what the law intended. The answer was provided to the op's question.

MDchanic

Sorry, Eric. Not really.

He was specifically asking about a 1962 vehicle, and therefore, by any interpretation, his answer was the exact opposite of the correct answer.

- Eric

Gary M

I called MO dept of motor vehicles and they said if you set the odometer to zero you need form 768 general affidavit notorized with explanation of why. If you have your speedometer rebuilt and it remains at current mileage you won't need the form.

oldcutlass

This mostly has to do with converting From paper documentation to electronic, most of the current laws and statutes will remain the same as applied to the hobby with the exception of the following proposal.

F. Exemptions

Section 580.17(3) currently exempts any vehicle which is more than 10 years old from the odometer disclosure requirements. The average age of the United States vehicle fleet has been trending upward and recently reached 11.5 years.[4] Because of this, NHTSA is proposing to raise this exemption to 25 years. NHTSA also requests comments on whether this exemption should be eliminated.

rustyroger

Is this correct?. Local laws might exceed Federal Statutes.
I'm assuming a US Statute is Federal law.
If it were so then there could have been pockets of the USA that ignored Prohibition for example.
I'm seeking knowledge, I am not a USA resident, and have no legal training either.

Roger.

joe_padavano

The issue of state's rights vs. federal rights dates to the origins of the US. In this case, yes it is true. I'm not knowledgeable on the specifics of odometer laws, but as an example, I am aware that the state of Maryland has a more onerous VIN tampering law than the federal statute. The Maryland law can be interpreted to mean that changing VIN derivatives (as in swapping an engine block or frame) is illegal.

Of course, in just about all cases, the physical tampering is NOT illegal, it is the tampering WITH INTENT TO COMMIT FRAUD. These laws always result in fraud charges. Federal VIN statutes allow you to remove and replace the VIN tag if "reasonably required for repair", as an example.

By the way, this states rights issue is why California (and now other states) can require more stringent emissions standards than the feds do.

MDchanic

Yes. In general, states and localities can pass more stringent laws than the Federal government, but cannot effectively pass less stringent laws, and cannot pass laws that oppose Federal law.

Also, many Federal rules are not laws but guidelines enforced through funding, such as the old 55mph speed limit (if states did not impose a 55mph limit, they lost a percentage of highway finding) and the 21yo drinking age (same thing).

Some examples:

Federal 55mph speed limit guideline (since rescinded)
State speed limits (usually 65-80mph nowadays)
Localities may impose lower limits within their jurisdictions, such as 35, 30, or 25mph (but not on Interstate highways).
Localities may NOT set a 100mph limit.

A Constitutional Amendment permitted Prohibition, which was enforced through the Federal law called the Volkstead Act.
States laws were irrelevant, alcohol was illegal, except for "medicinal purposes."
States could not permit alcohol.
BUT, after Prohibition ended, some states and localities retained (and still retain) their Prohibition-era alcohol laws, thus the existence of "dry counties" in the South.

The Federal gun control act of 1968 prevents mail-order sales of modern firearms, requires the buyer sign an affirmation that he is not a criminal nor insane before buying a gun from a dealer, and requires that handguns go through licensed dealers when moving interstate.
Some states and municipalities impose additional requirements, such as licensing of gun owners and monitoring of transactions, while others don't.
Many states have also adopted laws that bar any of their sub-jurisdictions from imposing more stringent controls on guns than the state itself has.

Most interestingly today, the Federal government classifies marijuana as a Schedule I drug, with no medical or research value, along with Heroin and LSD, and prescribes very severe penalties for possession and especially for production or sales.
(Heroin is legal in the UK as a pain reliever for terminal patients.
LSD is involved in several research trials today, which are taking off from earlier trials in the '60s and '70s.
Federal law classifies cocaine as Schedule II, having medical value, but controlled, as it is an excellent anesthetic, used commonly by Ear, Nose, and Throat doctors.)
Three states, Washington, Oregon, and Colorado, have completely decriminalized marijuana, and a number of others have come close. If you are in WA, OR, or CO, you can walk into a shop and buy any sort of weed or weed derivative that you want. It's perfectly legal. However, it is still a violation of Federal law, and any (and every) buyer or seller could be arrested, charged, convicted, and sentenced to 30 years in Federal prison tomorrow, if the Justice Department decided to do so (which, in my mind, makes weed sales a poor business model).
It's exactly the same situation as Prohibition, except that some states are openly rebelling, and the Federal government has not fought back.

So, in general, states can do more than the Feds, but not less, unless it's Marijuana, in which case it looks like nobody's really, like, motivated, to do anything, y'know, man?

- Eric

oldcutlass

State law can supercede Federal, Marijuana laws for example. I do find this bizaare...