cogaritis

First of all, let me say that I'm new and I'm trying to get a handle of the terms being used before I purchase a car. With that said, here's my current understanding of "numbers matching":

Every car has a VIN number. Every car, at one point, had a factory engine and transmission that was associated with the VIN number. There are no other parts of the car that are associated with the VIN number, but some other parts have codes and possibly date/manufactured location stamps on them. Also, from what I understand, it's impossible to tell if the parts of the car that are not associated with the VIN number are original. For example, if the cowl tag says you have a door handle made in Canada with a B on it, and you have a door handle made in Canada with a B on it, how can it be dis/proven?

The last part might sound a little tricky? Basically, I'm asking that if I bought a VIN numbers matching car (VIN, engine, transmission) and I had to replace some original parts from donor cars (but the donor cars had original parts), would it still be a complete numbers matching car? After all, the replaced parts, in theory, came from the same factory the original parts came from.

So that's my definition of numbers matching as I understand it today. If that is in any way incorrect or misleading, please correct me so I can learn the right way.

joe_padavano

You have a good grasp of the concept. On Oldsmobiles, only 1968 and up cars have the VIN derivatives on the engine and trans. If earlier cars have the protecto plate, that will include the engine and trans unit numbers. Of course, the unit numbers were only stamped on one head and the VIN derivative is only stamped on the block. One could still replace the non-stamped parts and still claim "numbers matching".

In the purest sense, a "numbers matching" car should have ALL the original parts it was manufactured with. Of course this is both unlikely and nearly impossible to prove, thus the unfortunately widespread misues of the term "numbers matching" and also the unfortunate counterfeiting of such cars.

Do as much research as you can and be completely skeptical when evaluating a car.

daves62

99% of the cars you look at will be rare,numbers matching,origanal and the seller wont Evan know were to find the "numbers"

cogaritis

Cool. Thanks guys.

rcorrigan5

There are a lot of different thoughts on "numbers matching" and I'll offer a few more. Joe P. is right in the purest sense, but that car is virtually impossible to find - it would most likely be a real low mileage car that was hidden in a garage for most of its life and never wrecked or dented. And Dave is right, too - many cars for sale are advertised as "numbers matching" but a seasoned eye will see that there are a lot of imposters. I recently looked at a real nice '68 442 convertible advertised as "numbers matching" but, as I looked around the car, it was obvious that it had originally been a turnpike cruiser that was converted to a 4bbl. As well, the transmission was clearly not the original unit. The owner was informed of this but the car is still being advertised as "numbers matching".
I like to take "numbers matching" in the following vein: Begin with the body, frame, engine block and transmission. They all have the VIN or VIN deriviative stamped into them - you've got to have this as a starting point. Then there are the parts. Some parts wear out and need to be replaced and that's where you will find the "discrepancies" (alternators, starters, water pumps, fuel pumps, A/C compressors, carburetors, coils and radiators are all good examples). These visible parts generally have part numbers cast or stamped into them that will tell you if they are original GM or aftermarket replacements. Some have date codes as well. When I need a replacement part, I look for the correct GM casting number and, if it has a date code, I try to find a part that is dated 2-4 months before the car was built. I would even buy a part if it was up to 6 months before the build date, but anything beyond that is generally not reasonable to expect that it might have originally come on the car. Once that part is restored to your satisfaction and installed on the car, I would call it "numbers matching". Some would say it is not "numbers matching" but, for most cars, that's about as close as you are going to get. As well, if you have to install a repop fender or quarter panel or piece of trim or interior and it looks original, I would call it "numbers matching".
Now, this is a stretch, but I would even go as far as to say that if you have and want to install additional factory options on your car (say swap out idiot lights for factory gauges, remove the blank pod and put in a tic-toc-tac, take out the AM radio and put in a factory AM-FM radio, take out the straight column and put in a tilt column, and so forth - anything you can unbolt and replace with a different unit without cutting anything), I would call it "numbers matching", because it could have come from the factory that way. This can get real dicey, though. There are model years when 442 was a Cutlass option. If someone attempts to change a Cutlass into a 442, or a Tempest into a GTO, or a Chevelle into a Super Sport, or a Skylark into a GS400, well, that's downright fraud.
There are varying degrees of this fanaticism. Some will say that dealer options (not available from the factory) detract from originality - I think it enhances originality and adds to the personality of the car. And some folks will go as far as to replace non-original glass with reproduction glass that is dated and marked as the originals were marked - I don't go for that just because of the expense and what you get - I've seen some of the reproduction glass and it appears to delaminate over time. But one thing I do like is the electronic ignition kit that replaces the points and condenser. At a glance, the car still looks original and that's fine with me. Closer inspection would tell that the newer system has been installed but, again, this is an unbolt/bolt in situation - easy to change back if/when necessary.
One of the things that's irritating to me is when I put a car into the "all stock" class at a car show and find out I'm up against cars with fancy wheels, big tires, lots of chrome under the hood, non-original looking interiors, master-blaster sound systems, replacement steering wheels, and so forth. I went to one competition that had a stock class that allowed up to 3 variances from stock and still could be in the stock class. I argued unsuccesssfully that 4 non-stock wheels and 4 big tires represented 8 variances from stock - they didn't like that! Trouble is, competitions that allow those sort of very visible variances make it virtually impossible for the true stock car to compete successfully.
Anyway, you can see I'm kind of all over the place when it comes to "numbers matching". Bottom line - it's what you want that makes it right. Others may disagree, but it's your car and you get to determine how you want it.

cogaritis

Wow, thanks Randy. Good description.

wmachine

As I've said about this in other threads, one of the biggest problems "we" have is that we are lacking proper vocabulary to accurately describe and discuss certain things. Thus terms like "original" and "numbers matching" are used, and for the most part, all their use does is perpetuate confusion. We desperately need better terms, and a clearly defined glossary of what the terms mean. And unfortunately, there are many out there taking advantage of the confusion for their own gain.
Back to "numbers matching", Randy has a good take on it, but I don't believe the term (by itself without any elaboration) should be used at all, since it can mean so many different things, and can be misleading.
So essentially, the term itself means nothing and should always (and does with me) follow with the question "What numbers match what"?

I'd like to see terms like "correct" and "factory correct" used more, as we can certainly start to be more accurate in saying things that are much more specific.

joe_padavano

That's a VERY slippery slope, and I'm going to have to disagree with you. Right or wrong, "numbers matching" is intended to imply "factory original". Adding items that were not installed by the factory does not make it factory original. In fact, it sort of brings to mind the old joke with the punch like of "going back to the Virgin Islands to be recycled..."

hialeah56

Yeah, I thought you had to stick to the build sheet to make it numbers matching
Ok here's a question, have you guys heard about the survivor class?
that has to be the ultimate numbers matching rcorrigan5 said was ultra rare to find
BTW numbers matching makes me sick

wmachine

Sure. OCA has a single "Unrestored Class". It is not judged and quite frankly is treated worse than a second class citizen.
Pretty disappointing for a club that proclaims "preservation".

rcorrigan5

How about this - two separate classes:
*Numbers matching = unrestored class = factory original = Joe's definition.
*Factory correct = it could have come from the factory this way = WMachine's definition.

All of my cars would be "factory correct" by that standard (except for that pesky electronic ignition, which would take lifting the window on the distributor to see that it is not as it came from the factory - I use the single wire model). I like those definitions. My only idiosynchrosy with this is that, if I had an original build sheet or window sticker, any options I add would be unbolt/bolt items, such that I could re-install the original items at a later date if I desired. Without the window sticker or build sheet, however, I'll drill holes and add as many options as I can find. My '69 442 convertible is that way - no documentation other than a p-o-p and it came with a lot of options originally (A/C, power windows, AM-FM stereo, cruise control, console, deluxe rear shoulder belts, power brakes and steering, THM 400, disc brakes, rally pac, hood paint stripe, etc.) but I'm going to max it out with a tilt column, power door locks, power trunk release, power driver bucket seat, a 3.23 anti-spin axle, the W42 special hood painting and a power antenna. One thing for sure - I'm sure glad I found and extracted these options from junked cars years ago because they cost a lot more now!

It's too bad OCA treats the "unrestored class" like a 2nd class citizen. Maybe time will heal those wounds.

My highest regards to all involved in this discussion. I treasure your thoughts and it helps me to better formulate my thought process in the "numbers matching" and "factory correct" process.
Very Respectfully,
Randy C.

wmachine

Dave, that is not much of an exaggeration. The majority of the time I ask "what numbers match what?", I don't get a straight answer. And ironically, they think *I'm* the dumbass for asking!


I'm not sure we need 2 classes. If we get down to basics and start by establishing standards for the cars, then the definitions will come along with the standard, and things will be a lot more clear, because they have been defined.
I'll say again that to me, the most important reason to get these standards done is not so much to provide a basis for judging as it is to establish and preserve all the details for historical purposes before the information is lost or so bogged down in misinformation that we'll never know what it accurate. "Truth Decay" as Ron Forsee coined.
And once all of this has been, I think the "unrestored class" situation will come into better focus. But unfortunately, the cows are out of the barn on that one, as far too many unrestored cars have been "destroyed" in favor of restoration.

And I'd like to add my thanks to all who are contributing here.

joe_padavano

So I'm not the only smart@zz who does that...

One time at Carlisle, there was a 67 442 that was advertised as "numbers matching". I naturally asked the seller to show me the numbers that "match". No, he did not have the POP...

I actually like the term "factory correct", but again, when was the last time you saw a frame-off resto that DIDN'T have every possible factory option on it?

wmachine

"Factory correct" is a good example of a better term we can use. It doesn't require that anything be original, or numbers matching anything, and it also takes dealer installed items out of the picture.

344870M

How would you guys classify dealer installed gears (4:33)? It was in the factory lit as optional but it didn't happen at the factory. Or are we talking more along the lines of the dealers that put their own spin on the car. i.e headers and such that had no factory 'backing'. Just curious.

wmachine

Good example of "splitting hairs" on definitions. But if terms and definitions are defined well enough, the gray areas would be minimal.
Power steering is factory available and dealer installable too.
Difference is that the 4.33 gears *can't* come from the factory (except W30s), they have to be dealer installed, thus the question of should it be considered factory correct.
But if the term "factory correct" is to be used, then the dealer installed 4.33 are technically not factory. It is what it is. I *would* call it original.
Personally, I would still consider anything on the car when delivered to be "original". This of course includes the 4.33 gears and other dealer installed items that also may not be factory correct for the car or even from that year. For instance a dealer installed Tri-Carb installed on a '67 442.
Again, if terms and definitions are defined, these things come into much better focus.

344870M

We could start a new class. 'As ordered' If you bought it off the showroom floor, you don't count.