1960olds

I have a 60 olds. Today I came across a set of 4 NOS seat belts #982404 in jade green with the Olds insignia on the buckle all still in their box. Can someone tell me if seat belts were an option in 1960? Were they an option for the 88 and 98? If not, when were they. Would the insignia be different for the 60 vs the 64? These say manufacture 1964 on the webbing.
Thanks

jaunty75

Cool find. I'm guessing here, but I think that back at that time, seat belts were standard on the front seats and optional for the rear seats. At least, that was the situation for 1964, as I had a '64 Jetstar 88 once, and I remember the dealer album for that year showing rear seat belts as an option. Whether or not this was true four years earlier, I don't know for sure.

1960olds

My 60 did not have seat belts but it is an 88 not the higher optioned 98. My literature didn't show any seat belts so I don't know. I was thinking of adding them to my 60 but if they were correct.

D. Yaros

As the owner of a 60 Olds, purchased new in 1960, I can state that seat belts were not an available factory option. Traffic safety laws mandated incorporation of seat belt MOUNTS only, beginning in 1962.

If one takes a look at the underside of the 60 floor pan, you will note the absence of factory seat belt mounts, while they are present starting in 1962.

1960olds

Thanks for that info. Would your guess be that If I were to buy seat belts in 1962 through 1964 as an added option would the ones I have be the only ones available through Oldsmobile?

jaunty75

Don't you have to have seat belts, anyway? The law today requires them regardless of whether or not they were original to your car.

1960olds

No anything before 1967 does not have to have seat belts or have them added. At least thats what I've been told.

jaunty75

I would definitely check this again. Many things are grandfathered as far as requirements for old cars, but I don't think seat belts is one of them. I think they're required on every car on the road in every state in the Union, regardless of when the car was made. As I say, I would not rely on "what I've been told." I would check with the state DMV or something and find out for sure.

Plus, don't you want them, anyway, because of the greatly increased safety?

Rickman48

May vary from state to state, but in Illinois, if it's being driven, it'd better have belts!
State cops will hassle you about shoulder belts, as they can't tell if you've lap belts on!
Seat belts mandatory a few years ago, here!

1960olds

I just did some fact checking and the United States required safety belts in 1968. The plan was to install belts but I wasn't going to put in the wrong ones, I would just but an aftermarket. I'll bet you would be suprised to fine out how many antique cars that do not have belts installed.

1960olds

I live in Iowa an here, I believe, is the current code section:

321.445 SAFETY BELTS AND SAFETY HARNESSES -- USE
REQUIRED.
1. Except for motorcycles or motorized bicycles, 1966 model year
or newer motor vehicles subject to registration in Iowa shall be
equipped with safety belts and safety harnesses which conform with
federal motor vehicle safety standard numbers 209 and 210 as
published in 49 C.F.R. § 571.209--571.210 and with prior federal
motor vehicle safety standards for seat belt assemblies and seat belt
assembly anchorages applicable for the motor vehicle's model year.

MDchanic

Maine requires seatbelt use by people in cars that are "required by the United States Department of Transportation to be equipped with safety seat belts," which means, it DOES NOT require them in cars that were not required to have seat belts.

Seems to me that not mentioning whether people in pre-seatbelt cars are exempt, but also not having anything in the code that requires owners to retrofit them (which would often require extensive structural work) leaves a grey area that you could get around in court. In general, the law does not require people to change things they already have that were legal when made. And, if a law requires shoulder belts, and you're driving an older convertible, does that mean you can never drive that car in that state?

Here is a list that includes information about what vehicles are explicitly exempted. It's not a primary source, but seems to at least give a pretty good idea.

- Eric

jaunty75

Very interesting that they set a year on it. It does appear that you're off the hook. But I would still think that anyone doing any regular driving would want to have them, aftermarket or not, for safety reasons.


I found the relevant section of Ohio law, and it's similar to Iowa:

(B) No person shall sell, lease, rent, or operate any passenger car, as defined in division (E) of section 4501.01 of the Revised Code, that is registered or to be registered in this state and that is manufactured or assembled on or after January 1, 1962, unless the passenger car is equipped with sufficient anchorage units at the attachment points for attaching at least two sets of seat safety belts to its front seat. Such anchorage units at the attachment points shall be of such construction, design, and strength to support a loop load pull of not less than four thousand pounds for each belt.

(C) No person shall sell, lease, or rent any passenger car, as defined in division (E) of section 4501.01 of the Revised Code, that is registered or to be registered in this state and that is manufactured or assembled on or after January 1, 1966, unless the passenger car has installed in its front seat at least two seat safety belt assemblies.




If I'm reading this right, if your car is built before January 1, 1962, you don't need anything. If it's built between January 1, 1962 and December 31, 1965, it must at least have anchor points so that seat belts COULD be installed for the front seat, even though there is apparently no requirement that they actually be installed. From January 1, 1966 forward, a car must have at least two sets of belts for the front seat.


No mention of shoulder belts anywhere that I found.





It's interesting that these cutoff dates come in the middle of model years. I'm assuming manufacturers at the time just complied with the law starting with the model year that would overlap the date in question. Otherwise, about half the '62 model year cars would have no seat belt anchor points and the other half would, while half the '66 model year cars would have just the anchor points while the other half would actually have seat belts.

D. Yaros

My guess, and it is only a guess is that the belts you are looking at were a dealer installed option. Guessing further, I suspect the belts come from a non-GM supplier.

Since there were no factory belts for 1960, you do not have to worry about correctness. If they are the right color, and you like the crests on the buckle, you cannot go wrong with them, IMHO.

Which crest is on the buckle; the shield, globe or rocket?

1960olds

These are in an Oldsmobile Box They are the latch or pull open type and its the rectangular Rocket emblem with red inset. It says Eberhart 500 on the back manufacture Feb 1964 Brown Line Auto Seat Belts

1960olds

The color is wrong but a place called ssnake oyls in texas refurbishes them any color with correct webbing

D. Yaros

I would say the emblem you have described is more period correct than either the shield or globe. You could check period advertising for the 60 if you want. What I recall is the emblem found on both the 1960 dog dish hubcaps, and between the headlights. It was more of a modified shield type; long, narrow, almost an arrow.

Interestingly, I did find this bit of info for you, which attests to the fact that seat belts were in fact an available (dealer) option in 1960 -
http://www.1960oldsmobile.com/factor...ies/index.html

This site also has 1960 factory lit showing the emblem used that year.

MDchanic

It's now been established that seat belts WERE available in 1960,

BUT, if you look at the picture, you can see that the buckles were plain, with no logo, as were the buckles of all manufacturers at that time, as far as I know.

The "right" shield logo (which would probably be wrong for a purist) is the one below.

Probably the most accurate belts you could get would be the plain-buckle type sold by hot-rod suppliers.

All that being said, I'd use those if I had them already, bearing in mind that without proper mounts (designed to withstand 4,000 pounds of force), they're just there to make you feel better anyway, and would probably break away in any significant accident.

- Eric

Ddbord

My 1965 Jetstar 88 has front seat belts factory installed. They were manufactured in Michigan. There are dimples in the rear slanting floor pan for rear belts which I will be installing next week. I got them from Seat Belt Planet. Very nice. They are aircraft type like the old front belts.

My front belts have the Fisher Body carriage logo on the latch. Rear belts were U.S. mandated in 1967.

Here in SC belts are NOT required in cars built before July, 1966!

Don
.

jaunty75

This is a great point. You can't just drill a hole through the floor, put a bolt through it, and attach a nut to the other side. As MDchanic says, it would never hold in the event of an accident as the force exerted on the belt by your body moving forward can be quite high.

Seat belts were anchored to thick (1/4"?) metal pieces, maybe 2 inches by 4 inches, that were welded to the underside of the floor and then drilled and tapped. This arrangement allowed the force to be spread over a larger area, and the deep thread arrangement lessened the chance that the bolt itself would pull out. This also made it easier to attach and remove the bolt because there was no need to get underneath the car to put a nut on the bolt and then try to hold it while you tightened the bolt from inside the car.

jaunty75

If they're in good shape, and they're Oldsmobile belts, I would just stick them on the car and not worry about it. Nobody in ten times ten thousand years would ever know that they're not exactly correct for your year.

Rickman48

I know 'back in the day' when we were requested to install seat belts, we'd use 2 1/2" washers, maybe 1/8" thick, with the floor sandwiched between them!
Required to make a pass at Union Grove, and most of us had tri-five Chevys or Olds.
I know there was dimples and reinforcements in some cars that hadn't belts, but don't remember what year that started.

1960olds

Thanks for the accessory info...looks like I need to get an acc catalog! I I've enclosed 2 pics of the belts/box. I do understand it will take more than just bolting it to the floor. As my car is a different color I would need to change the webbing....unless there is a jade green 64 olds out there that would need period correct more than me. I could just get repros without a logo. Hate to remove the original webbing.

D. Yaros

A couple of points: Yes, the logo you show is correct for 1960. That is what the factory advertising shows, and what I recall as appearing between the headlights.

As for the buckles being plain, I just don't know? The picture is so small that it is difficult to tell. I seem to recall, and the picture might actually have, a "V" shape design on the buckle. Olds used this among its dealers and salestaff. The "V" representing 'Vanguard"; whatever that symbolized?

I would not hesitate to use the belts he has described in a 1960 Olds. I would love to have the buckles for my 1962, as that is the logo Olds had gone to by then.

MDchanic

I've got no firm evidence, but I'm very close to being certain that nobody's belts had any marks on them until at least '62 or '63. I think nobody had thought of it yet.

I could be wrong, but that's what I remember.

If anyone can come up with better information, I'd be glad to learn!

- Eric

D. Yaros

On p. 68 of the 1960 Olds data book is a better picture of the dealer offered seat belts. It does indeed incorporate a "<" design on the buckle. It is cast in the buckle itself, not an added emblem.

I keep referring to this as a dealer item, as the data book references to factory accessories most definitely does not include seat belts.

Ddbord

Here's a picture of my 1965 original seat belt. Note the Fisher Body emblem.



The belts are 45 years old and in excellent condition. They were made by Hamill Mfg. Co., Inc of Washington, Michigan. I tried to get several seat belt manufacturers to replace the slightly faded webbing, and they said it's against federal law to do so! Duh!

--Don
.

1960olds

If you didn't catch in one of my earlier posts this company out of Texas will restore/refurbish your belts:

http://www.ssnake-oyl.com/

If someone can tell me where to find the "V" Vanguard style belt I'd be willing to let the ones I have go. I'd prefer orginals not repros though. My car is modified original so Its not that critical for correctness.

rocketraider

Your belts are 1964 Deluxe belts. Standard belts had a grained plastic buckle cover with no crest or emblem. 1963-earlier belts had metal lift-type buckles with no crest or emblem to my knowledge.

1963-earlier belts are anchored to an eyebolt mounted in the floor and the belts themselves have an overlap "claw" that looks a lot like iceman tongs. These would be the ones you need for your 1960.

Most GM Divisions had their own crest or emblem on their 1964 Deluxe belts, yielding to Fisher or GM emblemage after that. The chrome Fisher Carriage belts Don showed us are 1965-only. 1966 Deluxe are grained color-keyed plastic or vinyl-covered metal with the Carriage, 1967 were the later pushbutton center release type with the Carriage. 1968-later had the GM Mark of Excellence on all belts either plastic or metal buckle.

Ford and Chrysler weren't quite so concerned with image and used plain buckles with a pushbutton release on everything. Maybe the Imperial had some detail.

I don't think Fed law specifically prohibits re-webbing, they just don't want to assume the liability if it fails because they know the tort lawyers will come knocking. If they have the right sewing machines, re-webbing should be no big deal. I mean, come on. They made them to begin with, did they not? Companies make safety harnesses and parachute rigging every day, do they not?

I got a great email yesterday about the "lawyer party" and why this country is awash in misguided and sometimes downright bad legislation. Too many lawyers and all of them trying to make a living. They could learn about lawyering from Atticus Finch.

Ddbord

You are correct. My 1967 Ninety-Eight did have the push button with the carriage on the buckle. I haven't seen many cars with the Fisher Body carriage logo on the buckle.The outfit "Snake Oyl" that 1960 Olds told me to check DOES do re-webbing (and any other seat belt restoration. Told me that they'll do whatever I need. They must have a Legal Staff! Maybe "To Kill A Seat-belt Restorer?"

Thanks for the good info. You are truly a compendium of Olds facts!

--Don
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