bob p

I have a 1962 Super 88.

I'm going to install a Pertronix 1181 module to replace the points and condenser on my OEM distributor. I'm having some trouble finding all of the technical information that I need to complete the installation, so I'm hoping to find answers to a number of questions.

I have a copy of the 1962 Olds Service Manual, but I don't have the 1961 version yet. I'm working on that, but right now I'm really starved for technical data, as the 1962 “supplement” isn't very complete. There's no information on troubleshooting the ignition system. All that I have to work from is the Wiring Diagram, Fig 13-3 in the 1962 manual. It leaves a lot of questions unanswered.

The Pertronix 1181 Installation Instructions raise some additional questions, so here we go.

1. I Need Troubleshooting Data. Is there information about troubleshooting the 1962 ignition system anywhere on this site? I looked around but couldn't find anything. Right now all that I can find are general articles on ignition, which I may or may not be applicable to my car.

2. Starter Wiring. I'm not sure when the wiring methods changed for the starters on Olds V8. The starter on my 394 had to be rebuilt, and it appears to have 3 wiring terminals. One terminal has no external wires, just a jumper between the solenoid case and the main body. The solenoid case has two more terminals, one smaller than the other, each having a bundle of wires going to it. I can't tell anything about colors because everything looks black. The wiring loom to the starter hasn't been tampered with.

I understand that one of the wires going to the ignition coil is supposed to come from the starter solenoid, so that the ignition gets full 12V voltage during the start sequence; after that the ignition is supposed to get reduced voltage via the resistance wire going from the ignition switch to the ignition coil.

I can't tell if things are wired properly, because the colors of the wires at both the starter and the coil are all blackened. It might help to know what the starter wiring is supposed to look like on a 1962 starter. I've heard that 1962 is not supposed to have the extra terminals that were on later starters, but I'm not sure what I should be looking for.

Is it likely that my car would be getting these connections from the ignition switch, rather than having a wire coming off of the starter, so that I should just ignore the starter and not worry about it's connections? (Yes, it cranks when the key is turned to “crank”.)

3. Stock Ignition Coil Wiring. Bear in mind that I don't have any good troubleshooting information on the ignition system, I'm working off of the car's wiring diagram.

My stock ignition coil has a black wire going from (-) to the distributor, as expected. It has two blackened wires going to the (+) terminal. Fig 13-3 in the 1962 Wiring Diagram says that the ignition coil is supposed to receive a black wire, coming from the Ignition Switch (IGN#2), and a yellow wire that has electrical connections to a 9A fuse at the fusebox, and to IGN#1 at the ignition switch. It's not clear to me how the wiring diagram actually relates to the wires in the car, or where they are, or which segment of these yellow wires is the resistance wire. I don't see anything remotely resembling a fuse for the ignition circuit at the fusebox. Should there be one?

Looking at the ignition coil's (+) terminals, one wire looks like it's black, with some orange paint on it that may or may not belong there. The other wire looks like a filthy cloth covered wire whose original color I can't determine. Both of these wires go into a taped-up wiring loom that runs up, goes along the top of the firewall, down toward the vreg, and passes through the lower firewall near the driver's door hinge, presumably going to the fusebox.

I'd really like to know where I can easily tap into the 12V switched power coming off of the ignition switch. I'd like to avoid as much disassembly and tampering with the original wiring as I can.

4. Pertronix 1181 with Stock-Type Ignition Coil (with ballast resistor). Figure B.

The Pertronix instructions cover two cases. This is the case covered in “Figure B”. It uses the Pertronix module with the OEM type ignition coil that requires a ballast resistor (ballast wire in this application).

The instructions say that the (+) (red) terminal of the Pertronix module needs to be connected directly to full 12VDC that's switched by the ignition switch because the Pertronix module can't operate using the reduced voltage that comes from the resistance wire and goes to the ignition coil. This requires that I keep the original wiring of the ignition coil intact, and pull a new wire off of the ignition switch to go only to the Pertronix module. I'm assuming that this wire would connect at IGN#1, where the yellow resistance wire connects. I think that IGN#1 is the always-on terminal, and that IGN#2 is the crank terminal, but I'm not sure. Of course, the Pertronix instructions only show one ignition wire, not two.

5. Pertronix 1181 with Aftermarket Ignition Coil (NO ballast resistor). Figure A.

The OEM-type of ignition coil is an AC Delco U505, which requires a ballast resistor. AC Delco also makes a U515 which requires NO ballast resistor. It seems to be commonly used in applications where people want to eliminate the ballast resistor/resistance wire. I'm thinking that the Pertronix “Flamethrower” ignition coil is similar to the AC Delco U515, and that both of these would be suitable replacements for my application.

The Pertronix instructions for their “Flamethrower” (and what I think is the equivalent U515) show that the (+) terminal of the coil hooks up directly to switched 12VDC and to the red lead of the Pertronix module. If I understand this correctly, then both IGN #1 and IGN#2, as well as the red module lead, would all connect to the (+) terminal on the ignition coil. Unfortunately, the Pertronix diagrams don't show separate wires for IGN#1 and IGN#2, they just say “to ignition” and show a single wire.

6.Is there any benefit or disadvantage to going with the U505 or the U515 type ignition coils?

7. How Long is the “Resistance” portion of the “Resistance Wire”? The wiring diagram 13-3 in my 1962 manual makes it look like the “resistance wire” is a short segment of wire attached to the end of the yellow wire coming from the ignition switch and/or fusebox. I've looked at the fusebox and I can't find anything that looks like a terminal for the ignition system. Am I missing something?

Looking at the wiring diagram, it looks like the “resistance wire” is just a short segment attached to the coil end of the yellow wire. Is that the case, or is the resistance element the full length of the yellow wire? Looking at Fig 13-3, there is a lot of yellow wire going to different locations. It's hard to imagine that all of the yellow wires in this circuit are resistance wires, and none of this is clear.

I'm hoping that the resistance wire is a short segment near the ignition coil (like a ballast resistor), which would make finding the full 12V switched wire easier. The wiring diagram certainly makes the circuit look like the ignition wire is just a ballast resistor on the end of the yellow wire. In the real world, I don' t think that the diagram is accurate. I imagine that the notation on the wiring diagram is just a schematic, and not an actual layout diagram, so that the actual wiring in the car is different from what Fig 13-3 suggests. I'm thinking that the full length of one yellow wire in the engine compartment may all be resistance wire, but that some of the yellow wires elsewhere in the circuit are not resistance wire. This makes finding the correct tie-in location all the more difficult.


8. Where to Obtain 12V Switched Voltage? Since I'm going to have to pull a full-voltage 12V wire from the ignition switch to the ignition coil, where is the appropriate place to connect the wire? The wiring diagram looks like the fusebox is the place, but I'm not seeing anything there. I'm assuming that my hook-up needs to be to the IGN#1 terminal.

Thanks.

MDchanic

I'm surprised that you didn't come up with the thread Troubleshooting a points ignition.


Not in your car. You have a black wire, called IGN#2, which goes from your ignition switch to your coil (+) terminal, which supplies direct 12V current while cranking.
There is no connection between your starter solenoid and your coil.



Your starter should have a purple wire to the S terminal of the solenoid and a heavy black wire from the
battery to the big terminal.


It is supposed to be connected that way, so it is likely.
However, after half a century, it is not guaranteed.



Which should be all you need.
Three black wires and one white with an orange and purple cross-tracer:
One spark plug wire to carry the high voltage spark from the coil to the distributor,
One regular black wire from the coil (-) terminal to the points inside the distributor,
One regular black wire from the coil (+) terminal, and then onward to the IGN#2 terminal of the ignition switch.
One stiff white wire with purple and black tracers (probably woven) from the coil (+) terminal, and then onward to connect to a bunch of yellow wires in the harness, and ultimately to the IGN#1 terminal of the ignition switch.

Why not give the ends of the wires a good scrub with some lacquer thinner to clean them off so you can see the colors?



The wiring diagram describes the wiring in the car fairly exactly.
The wire to the coil is not yellow, it is white with purple and orange tracers. That wire connects to the yellow wire, as shown in your diagram.



No.



That is correct. The cloth covered wire is the resistance wire.



The IGN#1 terminal seems like a good candidate.



You are correct.



Not really, because you have a ballast resistor, it is the correct on, and it is working fine.



Yes, but that's for a no-ballast-resistor application, and you have a ballast resistor.



What's wrong with your old coil?



Probably. The resistance wire is crimped to the other wires somewhere inside the harness.
On newer cars the connection is at the firewall pass-through plug, but I do not believe that your car has one of those.



That is the case.



None of the yellow wires is a resistance wire.
The resistance wire has a white woven covering with purple and orange tracers.



If wishes were horses, then beggars would ride. The resistance wire is about 2-3' long.
And the resistance wire IS a ballast resistor.



That is a good assumption, though any of the hot sides of the top three fuses on the right hand side of the fuse box would be good, too.

- Eric

bob p

It does look like a very dirty stiff white wire that's woven is what is connecting to my ignition coil (+) terminal.

Would I be correct in undestanding that the "stiff white wire with purple and black tracers (probably woven)" coming from the coil (+) terminal is the resistance wire, and that the yellow wires that it connects to somewhere in the harness are regular plain-jane 16 ga yellow wires that carry switched 12V from the ignition switch? IGN#1?

If that's the case, then I could follow the stiff white wire proximally in the loom, assuming that it will leadme to find the place where it connects to the yellow wires. That would be the place that I make the connection to bring another yellow wire out to the Pertronix module.

If that's the case, then the important question to answer is: How long is the stiff white wire with purple and black tracers, and how far back to I need to go to reach the connection with the normal yellow wire?

I'm hoping that somebody might know the answer to this question so that I don't have to go blindly disassembling the entire wrapped wiring loom only to find out that the yellow-to-white connection isn't there and I took it all apart for no good reason.

It would really help to know where that connection is on the car, and you can't find that on a schematic.

bob p

Actually, I don't know if that is the case or not. Haven't done the troubleshooting yet. That guide you provided looks very helpful. thanks.

The only reason that I have one in my application is because the 1962 coil requires it. A modern coil doesn't require it. If I change the coil, I change the requirement.

It's an old design that requires a ballast resistor, and *that* introduces the problem that has become the subject of this thread. If my car had the modern coil then I wouldn't have the ballast resistor and we wouldn't be having this conversation. When I have everything in the loom unravelled and the wires are exposed, I'd just as soon excise the ballast resistor once and for all, replace it with a plain wire, and replace the 53-year old coil with a new one that takes full power. I don't see a downside to getting rid of the old-tech primary side of the circuit and replacing it with a modern coil.

It would really help to know where the connection is, rather than having to resort to a search-and-destroy mission to find it. I'm hoping that there's someone here who knows where the connection is on my car, so that I can avoid taking things apart that don't need to be taken apart.

Which is the case? I'm not clear if you meant the first condition you quoted or the second.

bob p

sorry, but I don't follow which one you're saying is the case.

oldcutlass

The resistance wire is the full length of the cloth woven wire. You can cut open the harness carefully and follow it to where its spiced into the regular wire. At that point you can remove it or just splice another wire in and run it back to the coil. Put a cap on the original resistance wire and stow it back in the harness. This way if you want to go back to points it's still there.

MDchanic

Yes.


The back of the ignition switch should be labelled with this. Also, it's the only terminal with a yellow wire.



I would suggest "distally," as we are moving away from the heart (the engine).

Yes, you could do that.



Let us know when you find out.
Unless someone on here has dissected one of these harnesses (and remember, the '61s had firewall-mounted ballast resistors, and the firewall pass-through plugs began within a year or two after '62, so there are relatively few cars extant with your configuration).



Well, you don't have to. You could just connect it at the ignition switch or the fusebox, like everyone else does.



You're welcome.



The reason why you have one is because it is an integral part of the RLC circuit that is your high-voltage system.
An RLC circuit is a circuit containing a Resistance, an inductor (I believe that the "L" is in honor of Lenz. "I" could not be used, as it already was in use to indicate current), and a Capacitor.
In the case of the ignition system, the coil is a strong inductor, the condenser provides the necessary capacitance, and the ballast resistor provides the resistance. The system is tuned to maximize the current flow at the frequencies at which the V8 engine operates (roughly 500-5,000 RPM). If the system were not properly tuned, the inductor would likely offer excessive impedance at certain RPMs, which would reduce the intensity of the spark.
The ballast resistor is not a resistor of fixed (or nearly-fixed) value, but one that is designed to vary its resistance with temperature, so that as the current load increases (which occurs as the demand for spark increases, as the engine speed increases), the ballast resistor grows warmer, as its resistance increases, thus keeping the RLC circuit tuned to the higher RPMs of the engine.

You can substitute the external ballast resistor for one that has been placed inside the coil assembly, but it will still be there, and will probably not work quite as well as the original external resistor.



Ballast resistors do not introduce a problem, they solve one: The problem of a fixed inductance and a fixed capacitance in a variable-frequency pulsed DC circuit needing to have a stable current output.



If your car had a modern coil, there would be one attached to each spark plug and fired by a computer.



You will have just made a mistake.



And I don't see the problem with leaving a carefully-designed fifty year old system intact.



There may be, but the odds are not great.



The case is that the “resistance wire” is just a short segment attached to the coil end of the yellow wire.

- Eric

bob p

Thanks for the explanation of the ignition system being an RLC circuit.

I guess that I mis-spoke -- by "modern" coil ignition system I meant a modern 1970s coil ignition system, not modern 21st century electronic ignition.

Our views of proximal and distal seem to be different. In referring to the proximal location of wires, I meant close to the origin/heart of the electrical system, not close to the heat of the engine.

it sounds like the bottom line answer to my question is that nobody who's read this thread so far knows exactly how long the resistance wire is, or exactly where it attaches to the yellow wire, because the layout that is in my car is not all that common and we can't get that answer off of the schematic..

I understand that the connections can be made at the fusebox or at the ignition switch. I was hoping to find a place for connection on the engine side of the firewall, so that I don't have to create a new passage through the firewall if I don't really have to.

Thanks again.

MDchanic

It's all good, and I'd recommend finding an existing hole to pass the wire through. Often you can just squeeze one more wire through a grommet, and if you do so with the wire on the bottom of the grommet, and use a black wire, it can be done very discreetly, and may be far easier than cutting up the harness. If you really don't mind cutting up the harness, and have made harnesses before, there is nothing wrong with untaping the whole harness and weaving in another wire, but it's a lot of work, without much gain.

Personally, I would recommend leaving the resistor wire in place whether you choose to use it or not, as a future owner may wish to use it.

It sounds like you've got the whole thing well in hand, though, and I'm sure you'll do a good job of it.

- Eric

bob p

What's the difference between the LS-type Pertronix modules and the non-LS-type modules?
Specifically, what's the difference between the 1181 and the 1181LS?

I understand that the non-LS version has an 8 element magnet ring that mounts below the module, and that the rotation of that ring is what triggers the hall-effect sensor in the pertronix module to open/close the ignition primary circuit. I've never seen an LS-type module, and I don't understand how they work.

Would either one be more reliable than the other in terms of not having ignition misses?

thanks.

don71

LS stands for lobe sensor, but I think you know that.


As far as I can tell, one is a first gen design and the LS is the second generation. Second having less parts, or somehow being easier to install on the user end, and perhaps making it cheaper to make. If I understand it correctly its trigging directly off the hex in the dist. instead of the ring. That's my simple observation.

Like Eric said, you've done your homework on this one, and I'm sure you'll have no problem getting this done.

MDchanic

Yes, the LS dispenses with the annoying, hard-to-install, and failure-prone magnet ring, and just picks up its signal right from the octagonal points actuating shaft.

A far more elegant and reliable design.

Others, such as Crane, have similar products.

- Eric

bob p

i was thinking that gaping the magnet ring was going to be a problem, because the gap is guaranteed to change during use, and i was thinking that could lead to problems.

so the LS version is more reliable. that's what I needed to know.

i still don't have a good handle on how the LS sensor works -- assuming that it gets rid of the magnet ring, i don't understand how it would work. before exchanging my 1181 for an 1181LS I need to confirm that the LS will work properly with my original 1962 distributor. not knowing exactly how the LS sensor works, i can't make that determination.

anyone?

MDchanic

The sensor simply uses the existing octagonal cam as a reluctor.

Nothing magic, no smoke and mirrors - the same principle as HEI and every other pre-OBD electronic ignition system out there.

The trick is how they reliably sense the the fairly subtle magnetic differences of the peaks and flats of the cam, but, hey, that's the wonder of technology.

Can you tell me how the touch screen on your phone works?

- Eric

bob p

Touch screen??? I have a rotary phone.

MDchanic

Ahhhhhh... Now I see.

Suffice to say that the moving octagonal cam creates a very subtle, but yet distinct and measurable, fluctuating magnetic field.
The Pertronix sensor senses the slight changes in magnetic flux and uses a computer algorithm to refine this information into an exact determination of when the peak of the cam has passed the sensor, and when the spark needs to be triggered.
It accounts for the speed of the cam's rotation, and varies the on/off cycle or dwell angle according to speed, so as to get the maximum power from the coil without overheating it.

In all of that, it is very similar to the way that a "smartphone's" touch screen creates a map of overall variations in capacitance across its surface, and then interprets variations in that capacitance field to decide when, where, and for how long, you have touched the screen.

It is complicated, but it's not magic, though it looks like it is when it works.

- Eric